Education

JJ Husker said:
Here’s an idea that might help start straightening things out. Howabout employers can’t require a college degree for jobs that pay less than $80-$100k. That might begin to solve both problems. People wouldn’t feel compelled to get that degree and wind up as night manager at Taco Johns and companies wouldn’t be fanning the flames of higher education by demanding somebody invest $150k or more to perform simple tasks anybody with a pulse could learn to do within a month on the job.

It’s my belief, by and large, that the majority of people aren’t getting more educated or smarter in college but rather they are just playing the game that’s been laid in front of them. With some obvious exceptions, it’s just become jumping through hoops to try to keep from starving.
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 No. ...no ....and no. 

 
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BigRedBuster said:
I added to it. 

So, I have a startup company that’s strughling to get off the ground. I really need a machsnical engineer and I am mandated to pay them 100,000 day one?

No. and no. 
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Apparently you missed the part where I said there are obviously exceptions and the other part where I said it wasn’t that simple and would require some allowance and adjustments for many jobs.

I realize there are many jobs that require some higher education and proof of proficiency. But I also realize the status quo is out of control. There are way too many jobs that demand a college degree that simply don’t need it. My thought was there has to be a way to begin forcing some of these ridiculous requirements to the wayside and stop peole from investing $200k in an education to land a job any halfway capable monkey could learn to do. Way too many people are compelled to attend college and it’s a complete waste for a bunch of them. Of course $80 or $100k can’t be implemented blindly. But I do think there could be some value to varying minimum wages tied to a realistic requirement of the position. At least then potential students might begin to be able to evaluate the usefulness of that education. We have to find some ways to not make it a requirement for everything.

If you really need a mechanical engineer, shouldn’t you also really need to pay a wage commensurate with the education required to earn that degree? I don’t care if it’s a struggling startup or not. I don’t see where that grants a pass from having to pay the going rate. If you want to pay less than a mech eng should garner then don’t demand a mech eng degree. If you can’t afford one then that’s an individual business issue more than a wide ranging societal issue.

 
JJ Husker said:
If you really need a mechanical engineer, shouldn’t you also really need to pay a wage commensurate with the education required to earn that degree? I don’t care if it’s a struggling startup or not. I don’t see where that grants a pass from having to pay the going rate. If you want to pay less than a mech eng should garner then don’t demand a mech eng degree. If you can’t afford one then that’s an individual business issue more than a wide ranging societal issue.
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I completely agree there is a problem.  I just do not and will not support this as the solution.  You say there are exceptions.  That's where a good intentioned idea like this goes haywire.  There would be so many exceptions and special considerations with this in an effort to make it workable that it would be a disaster.

You really said that if I have a struggling start up, I should be forced to pay someone possibly $100,000?  Are you kidding me?  This would hinder a large number of start ups from being able to get off the ground and ultimately become a great company.  

You say I should be forced to pay a mechanical engineer $100,000.  So.....are we going to pay all teachers $100,000?  The cost of their education at UNL is roughly the same.  Are you going to agree to that when your property taxes go through the roof to pay for it?

It wasn't too long ago that we were in a bad recession and these kids with engineering degrees weren't finding jobs out of college.  An engineer is a position where the degree is actually needed in most of the positions they go into.  So, what's worse, these kids getting a job starting at $30,000 - 60,000 with possibility to growing into something more?  Or, not have a job at all because legally I can't hire them and pay what the law says I have to pay?

Again, I acknowledge the problem, I just think this idea is something I can not support.

 
BigRedBuster said:
I completely agree there is a problem.  I just do not and will not support this as the solution.  You say there are exceptions.  That's where a good intentioned idea like this goes haywire.  There would be so many exceptions and special considerations with this in an effort to make it workable that it would be a disaster.

You really said that if I have a struggling start up, I should be forced to pay someone possibly $100,000?  Are you kidding me?  This would hinder a large number of start ups from being able to get off the ground and ultimately become a great company.  

You say I should be forced to pay a mechanical engineer $100,000.  So.....are we going to pay all teachers $100,000?  The cost of their education at UNL is roughly the same.  Are you going to agree to that when your property taxes go through the roof to pay for it?

It wasn't too long ago that we were in a bad recession and these kids with engineering degrees weren't finding jobs out of college.  An engineer is a position where the degree is actually needed in most of the positions they go into.  So, what's worse, these kids getting a job starting at $30,000 - 60,000 with possibility to growing into something more?  Or, not have a job at all because legally I can't hire them and pay what the law says I have to pay?

Again, I acknowledge the problem, I just think this idea is something I can not support.
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You're taking that $100k way more seriously than I intended. It was just a couple numbers I pulled out of my a$$. And the whole idea I proposed is not something I've been working on and finally unveiled. It was just something that came to me in the moment. The point is, employers should use a degree as a job qualification with some responsibility. Many are not.

And I realize our government could never implement anything like this without royally effing it up. Free Enterprise and At Will employment should serve the purpose 95% of the time. But the system is definitely broke when people spend about $200k to get a degree only to find themselves in $30-$40k per year job, where that degree was a requirement.

But yeah, I think if a company has to have a mechanical engineer (to use your example) then there should be some base expectation of income associated with that. Just because a particular sector of the economy is in the sh#tter or because somebody is starting a company on a shoestring shouldn't negate paying a responsible salary for that type of position. Maybe it's $60k...$50k...IDK but there is a number for every conceivable type of position. And it's not just to the detriment of that startup company. It would level the playing field for everyone needing a mechanical engineer. I mean I wouldn't care if I had to pay welders $100 per hour as long as everyone else did too.

Like the OP said, too many people are being coerced into attending college. There are many better options and solutions.

 
I have an account friend that has always told me that college tuition shoots up about the same rate as the  guaranteed student loan do.  They increase the amount to borrow, the tuitions also increase.  

I have also been told that about 100-500 colleges won't make it to 2030.  Decrease in the number of students.

 
JJ Husker said:
You're taking that $100k way more seriously than I intended. It was just a couple numbers I pulled out of my a$$. And the whole idea I proposed is not something I've been working on and finally unveiled. It was just something that came to me in the moment. The point is, employers should use a degree as a job qualification with some responsibility. Many are not.

And I realize our government could never implement anything like this without royally effing it up. Free Enterprise and At Will employment should serve the purpose 95% of the time. But the system is definitely broke when people spend about $200k to get a degree only to find themselves in $30-$40k per year job, where that degree was a requirement.

But yeah, I think if a company has to have a mechanical engineer (to use your example) then there should be some base expectation of income associated with that. Just because a particular sector of the economy is in the sh#tter or because somebody is starting a company on a shoestring shouldn't negate paying a responsible salary for that type of position. Maybe it's $60k...$50k...IDK but there is a number for every conceivable type of position. And it's not just to the detriment of that startup company. It would level the playing field for everyone needing a mechanical engineer. I mean I wouldn't care if I had to pay welders $100 per hour as long as everyone else did too.

Like the OP said, too many people are being coerced into attending college. There are many better options and solutions.
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I still will not support a minimum wage of this type.  There are way too many variables.  Do you have the same minimum wage for an engineer living in Minden Nebraska compared to New York City?

I agree with the bolded.

This idea is one that sounds great....but, in reality, it would be a disaster.

 
Moiraine said:
BRB is saying with what you bolded what I was trying to say. I even mentioned training to be an admin assistant under an office manager (i.e. an apprenticeship).

Like I said, I should have said 4 year college/university. That was what I was thinking of when I said it. 

I know lots of people who got a 4 year degree for things I don’t think require a 4 year degree, because it’s “what you’re supposed to do.”
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JJ Husker said:
Here’s an idea that might help start straightening things out. Howabout employers can’t require a college degree for jobs that pay less than $80-$100k. That might begin to solve both problems. People wouldn’t feel compelled to get that degree and wind up as night manager at Taco Johns and companies wouldn’t be fanning the flames of higher education by demanding somebody invest $150k or more to perform simple tasks anybody with a pulse could learn to do within a month on the job.

It’s my belief, by and large, that the majority of people aren’t getting more educated or smarter in college but rather they are just playing the game that’s been laid in front of them. With some obvious exceptions, it’s just become jumping through hoops to try to keep from starving.
Click to expand...
My issue is more about the assumption that degree is strongly tied to job/economy such that we end up in bad solutions like wanting to reduce the number of people with degrees. Although I agree with the general idea that jobs shouldn't all be requiring the degrees that they currently are. I'm in favor of the idea of decoupling education/degree from employment - at least to the extent that's practicable.

Let me propose the opposite solution as a thought experiment (of course this also is not going to work but I think it's better than reducing degrees): everyone has a degree. There's great benefit to our society having Taco John's managers or even cashiers with degrees. The only downside is the cost of them going to college, which is more a problem with the way we fund colleges than with getting or having a degree.

 
RedDenver said:
My issue is more about the assumption that degree is strongly tied to job/economy such that we end up in bad solutions like wanting to reduce the number of people with degrees. Although I agree with the general idea that jobs shouldn't all be requiring the degrees that they currently are. I'm in favor of the idea of decoupling education/degree from employment - at least to the extent that's practicable.

Let me propose the opposite solution as a thought experiment (of course this also is not going to work but I think it's better than reducing degrees): everyone has a degree. There's great benefit to our society having Taco John's managers or even cashiers with degrees. The only downside is the cost of them going to college, which is more a problem with the way we fund colleges than with getting or having a degree.
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As I said earlier, I’m fine with everyone having a degree. Make college free (with some common sense guidelines). I think we can afford it, we just refuse to have the people who benefit most from a capitalist society give back to it. 

 
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Problem is, if we make college free and most everybody gets a degree, then companies will just implement some other hurdle to weed out the undesirables. If it's free, it's not worth anything.

 
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