How good can we be with TM under center next year?

[zoogs]

I think there is a great disparity in what it takes for a guy to get the hook.

Turner was not the only guy to drop a pass or two this year. He can't possibly be considered the worst offender there, either. Here's what he was, a dnamic, athletically gifted freshman who was the team's leading receiver at the time. He drops a couple passes in one game and doesn't play a snap for the rest of the regular season. Meanwhile, guys like Brandon Kinnie are getting their PT back.

Choi played balls out for so long, and Andrew Rodriguez still kept getting starts (I'm not sure when/if this ever changed).

You're riding Abdullah hard for fumble(s?) - how many did Taylor have, this year and last, without even a sliver of threat to his job?

It is very tough, IMO, on the young guys who do have talent, to play knowing that they are going to get yanked at the earliest opportunity. (you reference LSU and Bama's great recruits, but Green? Heard? Abdullah? Turner? these are all top-flight recruits) These guys should get the chance to develop and grow on the field - and especially for the young ones, to gain confidence.

 

[The Dude]

Turner was not the only guy to drop a pass or two this year. He can't possibly be considered the worst offender there, either. Here's what he was, a dnamic, athletically gifted freshman who was the team's leading receiver at the time. He drops a couple passes in one game and doesn't play a snap for the rest of the regular season.

Well that's just not true. He didn't make many (if any) plays, but he played several snaps.

 

[zoogs]

I know he got in on the South Carolina game, but was he really on the field for an offensive snap the rest of the regular season? How many? Which games? Any pass plays? I stand corrected if true. But a handful of snaps, through five games, I don't think that makes a big difference.

I forgot to add, just before it came out that Jamal was "dogging it" in practice, he was sick.

 

[The Dude]

I know he got in on the South Carolina game, but was he really on the field for an offensive snap the rest of the regular season? How many? Which games? Any pass plays? I stand corrected if true. But a handful of snaps, through five games, I don't think that makes a big difference.

Yeah, he made zero difference after the Minnesota game, just a handful of snaps. But it was made pretty clear why he wasn't seeing the field much at that point.

But in October, Turner wasn't earning it. Fisher showed him practice film to prove as much.

First, a clip of Turner practicing early in the year. Then, a clip of new Jamal — cutting routes short, not finishing blocks, playing without his normal explosiveness.

I don't think it's a matter of the staff being unfair to Turner. I think what would have been unfair would be playing him even though he was half-assing it in practice.

 

[Mavric]

OK Capt Literal. How about this. 10 throws on the same route and all 10 are actually in front of the receiver. Martinez throws in front of, behind, at the feet of, too low, too high, behind and low, behind and high, in front of, too much lead etc....... The ball is never consistently in the same general area. This has got to be hard for a receiver to catch. You play how you practice. Martinez has an approximate completion rate of 54%, so 46% of the time guys are dropping passes or they are thrown in an area that makes the ball hard to or impossible to catch.

What helps a QB and receiver is to get in a "rhythm". If the passes are consistently thrown to numerous different areas, it is hard to get into a rhythm.

Yeah, the QB only has to relay the play to everyone, check the defense, possibly change the play, avoid the rush, find the open receiver in coverage, sight-adjust the route in sync with the WR, try to come up with the correct timing in case the WR runs the route a yard short or a yard deep or comes hard or soft out of the break. But if he doesn't put the ball between the nubmers, it has to be the QBs fault for throwing a bad ball.

 

[Mavric]

Turner was not the only guy to drop a pass or two this year. He can't possibly be considered the worst offender there, either. Here's what he was, a dnamic, athletically gifted freshman who was the team's leading receiver at the time. He drops a couple passes in one game and doesn't play a snap for the rest of the regular season. Meanwhile, guys like Brandon Kinnie are getting their PT back.

But he was the only guy that we KNOW had terrible practice habits to go along with them. Maybe there were others but it doesn't seem like it. To say him dropping passes was the only reason he didn't play is to totally disregard the other information (which seems to be a common occurrence). To a lesser degree, there was a similar situation with PJ Smith. He admitted that he blew his assignment to guard against Wilson on the naked boot. That's just one play but what if he consistantly has problems with his assignments? Naw, it's more fun to say they're in Bo's doghouse.

As I've said before, ALL players are going to make mistakes. The ones who are out there every day busting their butts to get better are going to get more chances to overcome them than the guys that are coasting - or do you disagree with that philosophy?

Choi played balls out for so long, and Andrew Rodriguez still kept getting starts (I'm not sure when/if this ever changed).

Interesting that you're now playing both sides of the argument. With Turner, he's got so much ability that how he practices or performs shouldn't be an issue - the highly-touted recruit should be in there over the walk on. With ARod, it should be the other way around? Tough to have it both ways.

 

[zoogs]

Choi was the older guy who had never really played before, while A-Rod started the year as a starter. It does happen a lot with young players, but I don't think it's limited to age. It's just inconsistency in what it takes for different guys to get the hook. Not really having it both ways.

Guys like A-Rod, Thorell, Kinnie, Paul, have all made many mistakes, never to get pulled. Other guys will come in, get something wrong, and then disappear.

I have to say, I'm skeptical. Maybe it's just that Jamal has been such a trooper and wanting to do anything to help the team since he got here early for Spring practice last year. Maybe that's why I find it hard to buy the coincidence that Jamal disappeared after inadvertently throwing Taylor under the bus to the media. That, and the number of "official" reasons to publicly be put out there about his lack of playing time since then. Jamal is sick, Jamal can't give effort practice, Jamal dropped critical passes against Minnesota - all three of these were put out there by Bo and Turner himself. That's an awful lot of explaining.

I was talking about the dropped passes not because I remember them in particular, but because Jamal was talking about them in a semi-recent article. Anyway, JT saying something negative about Taylor was a mistake and one worth disciplining for (briefly), but that was never discussed as an issue. Instead, everything else has been brought up, very vocally. It's just strange.

And if it weren't for what we saw with Courtney Osborne, I probably would not take this possibility as seriously (the 'injured' guy that was playing ST coverage but had very few, if any snaps at safety).

I know - nobody agrees with me. It's OK, and I won't push this point too much more.

 

[Hercules]

Jamal Turner struggled with practice habits, and he struggled with drops, and in his first year as wide receiver he was also probably struggling with learning how to run routes. On top of that, the kid is a terrible blocker at this point.

Kinnie had struggles with drops - but not with any of that other stuff. Same with Niles Paul. It would be one thing to yank JT if he was only struggling with one aspect of his position, zoogies, but JT was struggling with everything.

Despite that - they still tried to get JT on the field throughout the year, just in a much more limited role. And in those situations, just because he was on the field didn't mean he was getting the ball - I remember a screen pass designed for him getting blown up by Michigan State, for example, where Taylor had to tuck the ball instead of dishing it out to JT.

 

[The Dude]

Didn't Bell take over Kinnie's spot?

 

[zoogs]

Maybe, Dude, but Kinnie had a fair amount of playing time at the end of the year. I'm not sure who was playing what spots, but Marlowe, Kinnie, Enunwa, and Bell were the top 4 WRs to end the year.

Hercules, thanks for the info on that screen pass in the MSU game. That is something I do not remember and I appreciate you sharing.

If Turner was not nearly completely invisible over the final five games of the season, that would change the context of this discussion.

 

[bshirt]

What helps a QB and receiver is to get in a "rhythm". If the passes are consistently thrown to numerous different areas, it is hard to get into a rhythm.

I've seen this argument you're eluding to been made before, and quite honestly it doesn't hold water with me. Given no defender interference, quarterbacks and wide receivers know where the ball is supposed to be - in the numbers. But it doesn't matter where the ball is - if the ball hits you in the hands, or is catchable, you make the catch. The idea that the WRs don't know where the ball is going to be and thus can't catch is total garbage. You know he's going to try and hit you in the numbers, but if he doesn't then you adjust. The wide receivers and Martinez know when and where a ball is supposed to be in a route. The wide receiver should not be worrying AT ALL about where the ball is actually going to be. They need to expect a perfect throw, and adjust to the not perfect ones. This is what every wide receiver is taught.

Our wide receivers straight up dropped catches they could have had all year long. Obviously, Martinez' throwing skills are nothing to praise, but I don't care if Martinez can't hit the broad side of a barn but 1/10 tries. When it does hit, you catch it - there's no plainer or simpler way to say it.

100% correct.

Dreaming up that the ball has to hit them between the numbers repeatably or they shouldn't be responsible for catching the ball is total, undiluted garbage.

Dreamed up scenario #2.....the qb & wr have to "be in rhythm" or again it's the qb's fault for the wrs dropping passes. Lol! Unbelievable...... My God, a good wr catches balls that hit his hands. Period.

For the last three years we've seen our wrs drop passes like flies regardless if it was Z. Lee or Tmart throwing the ball. Just because Lee or Tmart may not have spent every spare moment hugging trees with the wrs does not mean the wrs don't have to catch the ball.

 

[lo country]

OK Capt Literal. How about this. 10 throws on the same route and all 10 are actually in front of the receiver. Martinez throws in front of, behind, at the feet of, too low, too high, behind and low, behind and high, in front of, too much lead etc....... The ball is never consistently in the same general area. This has got to be hard for a receiver to catch. You play how you practice. Martinez has an approximate completion rate of 54%, so 46% of the time guys are dropping passes or they are thrown in an area that makes the ball hard to or impossible to catch.

What helps a QB and receiver is to get in a "rhythm". If the passes are consistently thrown to numerous different areas, it is hard to get into a rhythm.

Yeah, the QB only has to relay the play to everyone, check the defense, possibly change the play, avoid the rush, find the open receiver in coverage, sight-adjust the route in sync with the WR, try to come up with the correct timing in case the WR runs the route a yard short or a yard deep or comes hard or soft out of the break. But if he doesn't put the ball between the nubmers, it has to be the QBs fault for throwing a bad ball.

That is the QB's job. Martinez is improving for sure, but not at the quality to get us a MNC or even conference championship.

 

[Enhance]

I think there is a great disparity in what it takes for a guy to get the hook.

Turner was not the only guy to drop a pass or two this year. He can't possibly be considered the worst offender there, either. Here's what he was, a dnamic, athletically gifted freshman who was the team's leading receiver at the time. He drops a couple passes in one game and doesn't play a snap for the rest of the regular season. Meanwhile, guys like Brandon Kinnie are getting their PT back.

We're a running based offense that asks Martinez to throw maybe 25 times a game. Turner struggled with blocking this year, partially because of his size. Obviously, Kinnie must have been doing OK in practice, but Kinnie was also a pretty good perimeter blocker as was Enunwa. Enunwa was very under-valued in fan eyes this year, imho. I don't remember how many drops he had, but he played great when blocking. I think the coaches take blocking into HUGE consideration for the wide receivers. If you can't block, you're not playing.

Choi played balls out for so long, and Andrew Rodriguez still kept getting starts (I'm not sure when/if this ever changed).

You're riding Abdullah hard for fumble(s?) - how many did Taylor have, this year and last, without even a sliver of threat to his job?

Again, I will simply point to the fact that - for whatever reason - coaches believed Rodriguez deserved the playing time. It's also possible Choi was nursing some injuries. I have no idea, but if somebody is playing over someone else it's because they earned it. This is purely conjecture, but perhaps Choi wasn't performing well in practice? And we all know how the coaches feel about that. Then again, one could make the opposite argument and suggest guys that were performing well in practice weren't carrying over to game situations. I don't know the answer to this and nobody here does - as I said, this opinion is purely conjecture because I honestly don't know.

It is very tough, IMO, on the young guys who do have talent, to play knowing that they are going to get yanked at the earliest opportunity. (you reference LSU and Bama's great recruits, but Green? Heard? Abdullah? Turner? these are all top-flight recruits) These guys should get the chance to develop and grow on the field - and especially for the young ones, to gain confidence.

I had a long response for this part, but by the time I came to the end I realized one easier way to say it - if they're not on the field, they need to get better in practice. It's the way coaches do things, regardless of the athlete's potential. It is what it is. Whether this is a coaching problem not getting these guys to play to there potential, or something else, I don't know. But from my perspective, practice should be a heavy focus for these guys.

 

[lo country]

What helps a QB and receiver is to get in a "rhythm". If the passes are consistently thrown to numerous different areas, it is hard to get into a rhythm.

I've seen this argument you're eluding to been made before, and quite honestly it doesn't hold water with me. Given no defender interference, quarterbacks and wide receivers know where the ball is supposed to be - in the numbers. But it doesn't matter where the ball is - if the ball hits you in the hands, or is catchable, you make the catch. The idea that the WRs don't know where the ball is going to be and thus can't catch is total garbage. You know he's going to try and hit you in the numbers, but if he doesn't then you adjust. The wide receivers and Martinez know when and where a ball is supposed to be in a route. The wide receiver should not be worrying AT ALL about where the ball is actually going to be. They need to expect a perfect throw, and adjust to the not perfect ones. This is what every wide receiver is taught.

Our wide receivers straight up dropped catches they could have had all year long. Obviously, Martinez' throwing skills are nothing to praise, but I don't care if Martinez can't hit the broad side of a barn but 1/10 tries. When it does hit, you catch it - there's no plainer or simpler way to say it.

100% correct.

Dreaming up that the ball has to hit them between the numbers repeatably or they shouldn't be responsible for catching the ball is total, undiluted garbage.

Dreamed up scenario #2.....the qb & wr have to "be in rhythm" or again it's the qb's fault for the wrs dropping passes. Lol! Unbelievable...... My God, a good wr catches balls that hit his hands. Period.

For the last three years we've seen our wrs drop passes like flies regardless if it was Z. Lee or Tmart throwing the ball. Just because Lee or Tmart may not have spent every spare moment hugging trees with the wrs does not mean the wrs don't have to catch the ball.

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

 

[The Dude]

What helps a QB and receiver is to get in a "rhythm". If the passes are consistently thrown to numerous different areas, it is hard to get into a rhythm.

I've seen this argument you're eluding to been made before, and quite honestly it doesn't hold water with me. Given no defender interference, quarterbacks and wide receivers know where the ball is supposed to be - in the numbers. But it doesn't matter where the ball is - if the ball hits you in the hands, or is catchable, you make the catch. The idea that the WRs don't know where the ball is going to be and thus can't catch is total garbage. You know he's going to try and hit you in the numbers, but if he doesn't then you adjust. The wide receivers and Martinez know when and where a ball is supposed to be in a route. The wide receiver should not be worrying AT ALL about where the ball is actually going to be. They need to expect a perfect throw, and adjust to the not perfect ones. This is what every wide receiver is taught.

Our wide receivers straight up dropped catches they could have had all year long. Obviously, Martinez' throwing skills are nothing to praise, but I don't care if Martinez can't hit the broad side of a barn but 1/10 tries. When it does hit, you catch it - there's no plainer or simpler way to say it.

100% correct.

Dreaming up that the ball has to hit them between the numbers repeatably or they shouldn't be responsible for catching the ball is total, undiluted garbage.

Dreamed up scenario #2.....the qb & wr have to "be in rhythm" or again it's the qb's fault for the wrs dropping passes. Lol! Unbelievable...... My God, a good wr catches balls that hit his hands. Period.

For the last three years we've seen our wrs drop passes like flies regardless if it was Z. Lee or Tmart throwing the ball. Just because Lee or Tmart may not have spent every spare moment hugging trees with the wrs does not mean the wrs don't have to catch the ball.

Carnes wouldn't have thrown to the wrong receivers. Fact.