How good can we be with TM under center next year?

[majech]

When the line can't block for Rex, it's the line's fault. When they can't block for Taylor, it's Taylor's fault.

I know you are being facetious, but there are many time when it IS Taylor's fault. He runs into blocked players quite often, he panics and leaves too soon sometimes, and he often does not "feel" pressure coming. The O-line clearly has it faults, but TMarts pocket presence, or lack there-of, compounds the problem.

True to the Red has made some very good points in this thread. Some of his posts are brass, but there is a lot spot on assessment there. I'm not trying to bashing Taylor, just saying it how it is. I REALLY want Tmart to succeed and win us championships, but I just don't see it

At the same time, the oline's shortcomings compound Taylor's problems. It goes both ways. It is a team sport afterall.

He skewed the thread into a Taylor bashing session. I don't care how many good points he had in doing so. If you're waiting for a QB to come in and win us a championship, I hope you're patient. Teams win championships. Not quarterbacks. A lot of things need to improve to reach that level. The QB position on this team is far from the top of that list. Don't get me wrong, it's on the list. Everyone on the team needs to improve to reach that level. Hyper-scrutinizing the QB position is easy, but it's lazy and to do so is failing to see the big picture. It's not like Taylor's goofy throwing motion is losing us games and keeping our defense from playing at a championship level.

It didn't seem like he skewed this thread to me. He voiced an opinion and made many valid points, imo. Now he did come across as brass and I'm sure he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

I totally acknowledge that teams, not QB's, win championships. That being said, teams rarely win championships without elite QB's, and Nebraska has NEVER won a championship without an elite QB. I also agree that we have much bigger problems than TMart, but this thread is about TMart, not those other issues. I personally think he has developed a lot and I think he often takes too much of the blame. That being said, I don't think he is close to being an elite QB, despite being a 2 year starter, and I don't think we use him in the most advantageous way. I'm also doubtful that he'll become what I consider an elite QB. What surprises me though, is when someone points out obvious weaknesses of TMarts, they are often ridiculed, have their fandom questioned, and are just generally bashed. I'm amazed how honest criticism of a QB gets some people so fired up.

 

[majech]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

I certainly hope they are not saying he is better, as that is just lunacy, but the comparison keeps getting made, lol.

Frazier clearly had a better O-Line, but Tmart has had pretty damn good WR and RB's imo. Burkhead is a machine and Helu was a game changer and is doing well in the League. I'd even say that TMart's WR's have been better than Fraziers. The OC is the biggest difference imo. TO's offenses were focused, consistent, and maxed out execution due to a structured system that had been in place for seasons. Our offensive philosophy is pretty much a train-wreck imo. Towards the end of the last 3 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. That is totally opposite of how it should be. I think that is because we have no "system" or core philosophy. Beck referred to our offense as a "mutt". How many times have you ever seen a mutt win a dog-show? NONE. They can make nice pets and can be cute to look at or play with, but when facing the elite, mutts don't get it done. THAT really hinders TMart, and our team, imo.

The biggest measure of a QB, imo, is their ability to make plays and run their offense. When does TMart make "that" play? When does he make "that" throw? I just don't see it. It seems to me that he would make a great scramble for a big 1st down, but he doesn't. Actually, imo, his running is not very good. Straight line speed? Great, but that doesn't really get showcased much at the QB spot. Regarding running the offense, our offense has had many, many underachieving efforts with TMart taking the snaps, and yes I know there are many other factors involved, but it just does not seem to be working to me. That are also many times that TMart does things that are just not good, like when he threw the ball to K Reed who was like 7 yards behind the LOS in the bowl game. Just throw the ball away. Where is the gamesmanship and awareness? Too many plays like that out of a 2-year starter imo.

 

[Hunter94]

and what is this crap with Beck, asking TM if certain plays are OK with him? obviously the kid will say no if he thinks he can't execute the play Beck has in mind......are you kidding me? ."Oh, TM, say, would this play be alright to call in this situation?".........Beck will never coach up a skilled QB, if he doesn't challenge the kid to develop and learn more....this philosophy makes no sense to me.

 

[The Dude]

When the line can't block for Rex, it's the line's fault. When they can't block for Taylor, it's Taylor's fault.

I know you are being facetious, but there are many time when it IS Taylor's fault. He runs into blocked players quite often, he panics and leaves too soon sometimes, and he often does not "feel" pressure coming. The O-line clearly has it faults, but TMarts pocket presence, or lack there-of, compounds the problem.

True to the Red has made some very good points in this thread. Some of his posts are brass, but there is a lot spot on assessment there. I'm not trying to bashing Taylor, just saying it how it is. I REALLY want Tmart to succeed and win us championships, but I just don't see it

At the same time, the oline's shortcomings compound Taylor's problems. It goes both ways. It is a team sport afterall.

He skewed the thread into a Taylor bashing session. I don't care how many good points he had in doing so. If you're waiting for a QB to come in and win us a championship, I hope you're patient. Teams win championships. Not quarterbacks. A lot of things need to improve to reach that level. The QB position on this team is far from the top of that list. Don't get me wrong, it's on the list. Everyone on the team needs to improve to reach that level. Hyper-scrutinizing the QB position is easy, but it's lazy and to do so is failing to see the big picture. It's not like Taylor's goofy throwing motion is losing us games and keeping our defense from playing at a championship level.

It didn't seem like he skewed this thread to me. He voiced an opinion and made many valid points, imo. Now he did come across as brass and I'm sure he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

I totally acknowledge that teams, not QB's, win championships. That being said, teams rarely win championships without elite QB's, and Nebraska has NEVER won a championship without an elite QB. I also agree that we have much bigger problems than TMart, but this thread is about TMart, not those other issues. I personally think he has developed a lot and I think he often takes too much of the blame. That being said, I don't think he is close to being an elite QB, despite being a 2 year starter, and I don't think we use him in the most advantageous way. I'm also doubtful that he'll become what I consider an elite QB. What surprises me though, is when someone points out obvious weaknesses of TMarts, they are often ridiculed, have their fandom questioned, and are just generally bashed. I'm amazed how honest criticism of a QB gets some people so fired up.

He made a lot more asinine points which didn't even address how good the team can be with Taylor under center, than valid points. Objective fact.

 

[lo country]

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

First and foremost, there's a HUGE difference between spring football and the Fall season. Players don't practice near the hours, don't have near the student attention, don't have near the media attention and pretty much get to focus on themselves in the spring/summer. It's highly likely that when the season hit, and a lot more was asked of JT, he crumpled under the pressure. That's purely conjecture on my part, but it seems a lot more reasonable that my assumption is correct over your idea that either our coaches suck or our recruiting sucks. My theory is also more likely because this happens all the time to freshman when they get to college, especially athletes during the Fall.

Second, again, I think the best advice I can give you is to realize the methodology of our coaching staff. Practice correlates to games. JT admitted to dogging it in practice. It's pretty simple if you ask me. Coaches can only say so much to motivate a player - in the end, the player is responsible for his actions. I highly doubt it's a 'recruiting' issue, as you so naively suggested. I'm sure it's more of a "I'm an 18-year-old freshman playing for Nebraska"...issue.

So you think that Bo and Co have done a good job developing the players and depth? All of Bo's recruiting have been hits? I am not naively suggesting our recruiting is an issue, I am simply stating that you would think, when you are paid to recruit kids for a specific purpose that there would have been clues somewhere along the way that JT didn't run good routes, block well or dogs it in some instances dogs it in practice. The staff saw his HS film, spring/summer and fall to include the weight training and spring game, not to mention he started 6 games and was the teams leading receiver. THEN after all this they realized he was sub par. You honestly don't think this might be a coaching issue or a recruiting miss? Seems like a logical assumption, based upon the facts that we have. Do you really expect him to say "I practice well and am getting jobbed" He said what needed to be said. Has this staff really knocked it out of the park with Bo's recruits? Perhaps it is too early to tell. Rex and David, two great ones to be sure, but the future will tell. Four offensive systems later, I really can't tell if the kids will pan out and the D seems incredibly complicated that you need to be in 3-4 yrs to do well. It just seems that the excuse,, his practice habits stnk should have been detected well before game 6. I still wonder about the mythical Bo's doghouse and then the injury reports.

I just see a double standard with this staff. Some kids make mistake after mistake and still play while others make one and appear to be done.

 

[Hunter94]

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

First and foremost, there's a HUGE difference between spring football and the Fall season. Players don't practice near the hours, don't have near the student attention, don't have near the media attention and pretty much get to focus on themselves in the spring/summer. It's highly likely that when the season hit, and a lot more was asked of JT, he crumpled under the pressure. That's purely conjecture on my part, but it seems a lot more reasonable that my assumption is correct over your idea that either our coaches suck or our recruiting sucks. My theory is also more likely because this happens all the time to freshman when they get to college, especially athletes during the Fall.

Second, again, I think the best advice I can give you is to realize the methodology of our coaching staff. Practice correlates to games. JT admitted to dogging it in practice. It's pretty simple if you ask me. Coaches can only say so much to motivate a player - in the end, the player is responsible for his actions. I highly doubt it's a 'recruiting' issue, as you so naively suggested. I'm sure it's more of a "I'm an 18-year-old freshman playing for Nebraska"...issue.

So you think that Bo and Co have done a good job developing the players and depth? All of Bo's recruiting have been hits? I am not naively suggesting our recruiting is an issue, I am simply stating that you would think, when you are paid to recruit kids for a specific purpose that there would have been clues somewhere along the way that JT didn't run good routes, block well or dogs it in some instances dogs it in practice. The staff saw his HS film, spring/summer and fall to include the weight training and spring game, not to mention he started 6 games and was the teams leading receiver. THEN after all this they realized he was sub par. You honestly don't think this might be a coaching issue or a recruiting miss? Seems like a logical assumption, based upon the facts that we have. Do you really expect him to say "I practice well and am getting jobbed" He said what needed to be said. Has this staff really knocked it out of the park with Bo's recruits? Perhaps it is too early to tell. Rex and David, two great ones to be sure, but the future will tell. Four offensive systems later, I really can't tell if the kids will pan out and the D seems incredibly complicated that you need to be in 3-4 yrs to do well. It just seems that the excuse,, his practice habits stnk should have been detected well before game 6. I still wonder about the mythical Bo's doghouse and then the injury reports.

I just see a double standard with this staff. Some kids make mistake after mistake and still play while others make one and appear to be done.

absolutely, 100% spot on........sh#t going on behind closed doors.

 

[Big Red 40]

A dynamic playmaking Qb can take a good team and turn them into a Championship team. Florida would have won many games without Tebow but i think hes what pushed them to a the 2 National Championships.Same with Vince young, Cam Newton, and i would even include Tommie Frazier. I dont know whether Taylor will ever be as good as those guys, but i really think he has improved this last season.Who knows with 2 more years to mature and learn?The thing i noticed thats keeping us out of National Championship contention, is the meltdowns and sloppy play that reared its ugly head a few time this year.Clean up stupid penalties, fumbles, catch the ball when its close, and Taylor looks much better. Add a couple more wins to our record this year too. In my opinion the losses this year were not Taylors fault.

 

[lo country]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

I certainly hope they are not saying he is better, as that is just lunacy, but the comparison keeps getting made, lol.

Frazier clearly had a better O-Line, but Tmart has had pretty damn good WR and RB's imo. Burkhead is a machine and Helu was a game changer and is doing well in the League. I'd even say that TMart's WR's have been better than Fraziers. The OC is the biggest difference imo. TO's offenses were focused, consistent, and maxed out execution due to a structured system that had been in place for seasons. Our offensive philosophy is pretty much a train-wreck imo. Towards the end of the last 3 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. That is totally opposite of how it should be. I think that is because we have no "system" or core philosophy. Beck referred to our offense as a "mutt". How many times have you ever seen a mutt win a dog-show? NONE. They can make nice pets and can be cute to look at or play with, but when facing the elite, mutts don't get it done. THAT really hinders TMart, and our team, imo.

The biggest measure of a QB, imo, is their ability to make plays and run their offense. When does TMart make "that" play? When does he make "that" throw? I just don't see it. It seems to me that he would make a great scramble for a big 1st down, but he doesn't. Actually, imo, his running is not very good. Straight line speed? Great, but that doesn't really get showcased much at the QB spot. Regarding running the offense, our offense has had many, many underachieving efforts with TMart taking the snaps, and yes I know there are many other factors involved, but it just does not seem to be working to me. That are also many times that TMart does things that are just not good, like when he threw the ball to K Reed who was like 7 yards behind the LOS in the bowl game. Just throw the ball away. Where is the gamesmanship and awareness? Too many plays like that out of a 2-year starter imo.

Folks will refuse to acknowledge that Martinez is not "the guy". I agree 100%. He is incredibly fast. So is Bolt from Jamaica, but I do not see many NFL offers coming into play QB. Since defenses have figured a way to stop his straight speed, has Martinez made any of the plays, passes or runs that need to be done to get us to the next level. IMO, no. In this O, we need a QB who can get the tough yards if needed. Martinez, physically and/or mentally is not the guy.

Look at the option. To make it work you need the QB to attack the D, step into the pressure and make the D commit. Martinez seems contact adverse. Not good for a O predicated on a QB who is a running threat. Do I think he is a running QB? NO. He is a really fast guy, who can get crazy yards when the field is clear (his path) of defenders.

This mutt O is hurting Martinez and the team. I really think Martinez would thrive under an O predicated on the zone read and play action passing game, with power thrown in. Ditch the under center, option stuff. He is becoming a better game manager which is great, but if we do not play to his strengths, why be a game manager? We need his ability to hit the seem and be gone. He doesn't have the skill set to sit in the pocket and pick apart the D. He does have the abilty to stay in the gun, make a read or to and deliver either short passes (less than 7 yrds) or the long lob ball. Martinez has the potential to be good. The O just has to get consistent with his skill set and the receivers need to catch balls. Still think their is a disconnect between them and Martinez, but sadly since Cally got here other than Swift and Pedey we haven't really had good luck. I also look at the QB they had (Ganz) as a tough SOB who led from the front and somehow got the most out of the guys he played with. Seems like the team "played for him" instead of playing with him.

 

[Mavric]

We need bigger improvements out of him or it will be a similar season as before. There was very little from the start to the end of this season.

I guess I'm not so sure about this. Which one of our four losses this year did he cost us the game? The Wisconsin game would be the first one on people's minds and he obviously didn't play well but we also gave up 48 points which is tough to overcome in any circumstance. Against NW he was 28/37 for 289 yds and 2 TDs and ran for another 53 yds. He also didn't have a great game against Michigan but I'm not sure what he was going to do to overcome the total meltdown by almost everyone else. He only "missed" on about two passes vs. SC and had our longest run of the day.

I'd like to see improvement from him just like everyone else but I only see maybe one game where he could do enough by himself to get us any more wins. We need a lot of people to play better. Even some of TM's biggest critics would disagree with your last statement.

 

[jsneb83]

and what is this crap with Beck, asking TM if certain plays are OK with him? obviously the kid will say no if he thinks he can't execute the play Beck has in mind......are you kidding me? ."Oh, TM, say, would this play be alright to call in this situation?".........Beck will never coach up a skilled QB, if he doesn't challenge the kid to develop and learn more....this philosophy makes no sense to me.

You challenge them to learn plays they don't know in practice, not in games. If he isn't comfortable enough with a play in a game, it will often lead to a turnover. I would rather him run a play he's comfortable with than one he doesn't know.

 

[Hercules]

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

First and foremost, there's a HUGE difference between spring football and the Fall season. Players don't practice near the hours, don't have near the student attention, don't have near the media attention and pretty much get to focus on themselves in the spring/summer. It's highly likely that when the season hit, and a lot more was asked of JT, he crumpled under the pressure. That's purely conjecture on my part, but it seems a lot more reasonable that my assumption is correct over your idea that either our coaches suck or our recruiting sucks. My theory is also more likely because this happens all the time to freshman when they get to college, especially athletes during the Fall.

Second, again, I think the best advice I can give you is to realize the methodology of our coaching staff. Practice correlates to games. JT admitted to dogging it in practice. It's pretty simple if you ask me. Coaches can only say so much to motivate a player - in the end, the player is responsible for his actions. I highly doubt it's a 'recruiting' issue, as you so naively suggested. I'm sure it's more of a "I'm an 18-year-old freshman playing for Nebraska"...issue.

So you think that Bo and Co have done a good job developing the players and depth? All of Bo's recruiting have been hits? I am not naively suggesting our recruiting is an issue, I am simply stating that you would think, when you are paid to recruit kids for a specific purpose that there would have been clues somewhere along the way that JT didn't run good routes, block well or dogs it in some instances dogs it in practice. The staff saw his HS film, spring/summer and fall to include the weight training and spring game, not to mention he started 6 games and was the teams leading receiver. THEN after all this they realized he was sub par. You honestly don't think this might be a coaching issue or a recruiting miss? Seems like a logical assumption, based upon the facts that we have. Do you really expect him to say "I practice well and am getting jobbed" He said what needed to be said. Has this staff really knocked it out of the park with Bo's recruits? Perhaps it is too early to tell. Rex and David, two great ones to be sure, but the future will tell. Four offensive systems later, I really can't tell if the kids will pan out and the D seems incredibly complicated that you need to be in 3-4 yrs to do well. It just seems that the excuse,, his practice habits stnk should have been detected well before game 6. I still wonder about the mythical Bo's doghouse and then the injury reports.

I just see a double standard with this staff. Some kids make mistake after mistake and still play while others make one and appear to be done.

First of all, you're saying that the staff should have seen that JT would have problems running routes or blocking by analyzing his HS tape, even though JT played QB in high school.

Secondly, Jamal didn't just make one mistake - his playing time had gone down significantly even before that really bad drop against Minnesota. That drop was seen as an example of why his playing time had gone down, not the catalyst.

And then you're acting as if the only variable in Jamal's situation is Jamal. It's not like he made some mistakes so we decided to play with 10 guys on the field. He made some mistakes and Marlowe took his job. Marlowe took advantage, stepped up, and showed that he was frankly a more reliable receiver than Jamal as the year wore on.

It's not that Taylor gets treated differently than every other player on the team (even though on most teams with most coaches, the starting QB is treated differently - Bo has shown that he treats the starting QB the same as any other position), it's that he's outperforming his competition. If Brion performs better than Taylor - he'll get the job. If Taylor performs better, he'll keep it.

 

[lo country]

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

First and foremost, there's a HUGE difference between spring football and the Fall season. Players don't practice near the hours, don't have near the student attention, don't have near the media attention and pretty much get to focus on themselves in the spring/summer. It's highly likely that when the season hit, and a lot more was asked of JT, he crumpled under the pressure. That's purely conjecture on my part, but it seems a lot more reasonable that my assumption is correct over your idea that either our coaches suck or our recruiting sucks. My theory is also more likely because this happens all the time to freshman when they get to college, especially athletes during the Fall.

Second, again, I think the best advice I can give you is to realize the methodology of our coaching staff. Practice correlates to games. JT admitted to dogging it in practice. It's pretty simple if you ask me. Coaches can only say so much to motivate a player - in the end, the player is responsible for his actions. I highly doubt it's a 'recruiting' issue, as you so naively suggested. I'm sure it's more of a "I'm an 18-year-old freshman playing for Nebraska"...issue.

So you think that Bo and Co have done a good job developing the players and depth? All of Bo's recruiting have been hits? I am not naively suggesting our recruiting is an issue, I am simply stating that you would think, when you are paid to recruit kids for a specific purpose that there would have been clues somewhere along the way that JT didn't run good routes, block well or dogs it in some instances dogs it in practice. The staff saw his HS film, spring/summer and fall to include the weight training and spring game, not to mention he started 6 games and was the teams leading receiver. THEN after all this they realized he was sub par. You honestly don't think this might be a coaching issue or a recruiting miss? Seems like a logical assumption, based upon the facts that we have. Do you really expect him to say "I practice well and am getting jobbed" He said what needed to be said. Has this staff really knocked it out of the park with Bo's recruits? Perhaps it is too early to tell. Rex and David, two great ones to be sure, but the future will tell. Four offensive systems later, I really can't tell if the kids will pan out and the D seems incredibly complicated that you need to be in 3-4 yrs to do well. It just seems that the excuse,, his practice habits stnk should have been detected well before game 6. I still wonder about the mythical Bo's doghouse and then the injury reports.

I just see a double standard with this staff. Some kids make mistake after mistake and still play while others make one and appear to be done.

First of all, you're saying that the staff should have seen that JT would have problems running routes or blocking by analyzing his HS tape, even though JT played QB in high school.

Secondly, Jamal didn't just make one mistake - his playing time had gone down significantly even before that really bad drop against Minnesota. That drop was seen as an example of why his playing time had gone down, not the catalyst.

And then you're acting as if the only variable in Jamal's situation is Jamal. It's not like he made some mistakes so we decided to play with 10 guys on the field. He made some mistakes and Marlowe took his job. Marlowe took advantage, stepped up, and showed that he was frankly a more reliable receiver than Jamal as the year wore on.

It's not that Taylor gets treated differently than every other player on the team (even though on most teams with most coaches, the starting QB is treated differently - Bo has shown that he treats the starting QB the same as any other position), it's that he's outperforming his competition. If Brion performs better than Taylor - he'll get the job. If Taylor performs better, he'll keep it.

He was a HS QB, but the coaches couldn't see his work ethic or lack therof? Spring, summer and fall didn't raise any flags? Just seems odd.

Not really sure I would say more reliable. He probably had as many drops or more than JT. Seeing JT (when he played) he seemed much more electric and dynamic than Marlowe or any of our receivers to be honest. He seemed to "have it". The ability to make something out of nothing. The ability to swing momentum when needed. A big play guy if you will. If he couldn't grasp the complexities of the system wasn't there some special plays that Beck could dial up to get him in?

Numerous other players dropped balls and missed blocks, but still stayed in week after week.

I know this is a thread about Martinez, but wth happened to Osbourne, Smith etc on D. Rod starting over Choi? From the outside looking in, it appears different standards for some over others.

 

[Hercules]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

I certainly hope they are not saying he is better, as that is just lunacy, but the comparison keeps getting made, lol.

Frazier clearly had a better O-Line, but Tmart has had pretty damn good WR and RB's imo. Burkhead is a machine and Helu was a game changer and is doing well in the League. I'd even say that TMart's WR's have been better than Fraziers. The OC is the biggest difference imo. TO's offenses were focused, consistent, and maxed out execution due to a structured system that had been in place for seasons. Our offensive philosophy is pretty much a train-wreck imo. Towards the end of the last 3 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. That is totally opposite of how it should be. I think that is because we have no "system" or core philosophy. Beck referred to our offense as a "mutt". How many times have you ever seen a mutt win a dog-show? NONE. They can make nice pets and can be cute to look at or play with, but when facing the elite, mutts don't get it done. THAT really hinders TMart, and our team, imo.

The biggest measure of a QB, imo, is their ability to make plays and run their offense. When does TMart make "that" play? When does he make "that" throw? I just don't see it. It seems to me that he would make a great scramble for a big 1st down, but he doesn't. Actually, imo, his running is not very good. Straight line speed? Great, but that doesn't really get showcased much at the QB spot. Regarding running the offense, our offense has had many, many underachieving efforts with TMart taking the snaps, and yes I know there are many other factors involved, but it just does not seem to be working to me. That are also many times that TMart does things that are just not good, like when he threw the ball to K Reed who was like 7 yards behind the LOS in the bowl game. Just throw the ball away. Where is the gamesmanship and awareness? Too many plays like that out of a 2-year starter imo.

First of all, don't compare Burkhead and Helu to the RBs Frazier had. Neither of those guys wouldn't have made the 2-deep in 1995.

Secondly, the LAST thing we should be thinking about right now is changing offensive philosophy. We've done that every year since 2008. We've got a solid philosophy right now. It's a system that in its first year produced better against top defenses than any other year of the Pelini era, and it carried the defense similarly to how the offense did in 2008, even with much younger talent. We've got the right guy in Beck, and the right system in place for Nebraska football - we've just got to keep getting better.

 

[Hercules]

Then it goes back to coaching. The ugly elephant in the room. This staff either completely sucks at recruiting or in player development. If no one wants to make Martinez take any responsibility for dropped balls than it is on the coaches, plain and simple. They pull JT, who was catching passes, leading receiver after 6 games, misses a catch at Minnesota and then name a drop drill after him. Then he is completely absent. Even if he practices like crap he was the leading receiver. Hey guess who actually got to see him during the recruiting, spring and fall. Wait for it, the coaches. Se a pattern here. It took them recruiting, spring and fall and six games to realize his practice ethics suck.. Really?! If he wasn't grassping the play book, it is the coaches job to design something, even 3 plays to get the kid the ball. His blocking stunk? So does Reeds. He didn't sit.

First and foremost, there's a HUGE difference between spring football and the Fall season. Players don't practice near the hours, don't have near the student attention, don't have near the media attention and pretty much get to focus on themselves in the spring/summer. It's highly likely that when the season hit, and a lot more was asked of JT, he crumpled under the pressure. That's purely conjecture on my part, but it seems a lot more reasonable that my assumption is correct over your idea that either our coaches suck or our recruiting sucks. My theory is also more likely because this happens all the time to freshman when they get to college, especially athletes during the Fall.

Second, again, I think the best advice I can give you is to realize the methodology of our coaching staff. Practice correlates to games. JT admitted to dogging it in practice. It's pretty simple if you ask me. Coaches can only say so much to motivate a player - in the end, the player is responsible for his actions. I highly doubt it's a 'recruiting' issue, as you so naively suggested. I'm sure it's more of a "I'm an 18-year-old freshman playing for Nebraska"...issue.

So you think that Bo and Co have done a good job developing the players and depth? All of Bo's recruiting have been hits? I am not naively suggesting our recruiting is an issue, I am simply stating that you would think, when you are paid to recruit kids for a specific purpose that there would have been clues somewhere along the way that JT didn't run good routes, block well or dogs it in some instances dogs it in practice. The staff saw his HS film, spring/summer and fall to include the weight training and spring game, not to mention he started 6 games and was the teams leading receiver. THEN after all this they realized he was sub par. You honestly don't think this might be a coaching issue or a recruiting miss? Seems like a logical assumption, based upon the facts that we have. Do you really expect him to say "I practice well and am getting jobbed" He said what needed to be said. Has this staff really knocked it out of the park with Bo's recruits? Perhaps it is too early to tell. Rex and David, two great ones to be sure, but the future will tell. Four offensive systems later, I really can't tell if the kids will pan out and the D seems incredibly complicated that you need to be in 3-4 yrs to do well. It just seems that the excuse,, his practice habits stnk should have been detected well before game 6. I still wonder about the mythical Bo's doghouse and then the injury reports.

I just see a double standard with this staff. Some kids make mistake after mistake and still play while others make one and appear to be done.

First of all, you're saying that the staff should have seen that JT would have problems running routes or blocking by analyzing his HS tape, even though JT played QB in high school.

Secondly, Jamal didn't just make one mistake - his playing time had gone down significantly even before that really bad drop against Minnesota. That drop was seen as an example of why his playing time had gone down, not the catalyst.

And then you're acting as if the only variable in Jamal's situation is Jamal. It's not like he made some mistakes so we decided to play with 10 guys on the field. He made some mistakes and Marlowe took his job. Marlowe took advantage, stepped up, and showed that he was frankly a more reliable receiver than Jamal as the year wore on.

It's not that Taylor gets treated differently than every other player on the team (even though on most teams with most coaches, the starting QB is treated differently - Bo has shown that he treats the starting QB the same as any other position), it's that he's outperforming his competition. If Brion performs better than Taylor - he'll get the job. If Taylor performs better, he'll keep it.

He was a HS QB, but the coaches couldn't see his work ethic or lack therof? Spring, summer and fall didn't raise any flags? Just seems odd.

Not really sure I would say more reliable. He probably had as many drops or more than JT. Seeing JT (when he played) he seemed much more electric and dynamic than Marlowe or any of our receivers to be honest. He seemed to "have it". The ability to make something out of nothing. The ability to swing momentum when needed. A big play guy if you will. If he couldn't grasp the complexities of the system wasn't there some special plays that Beck could dial up to get him in?

Numerous other players dropped balls and missed blocks, but still stayed in week after week.

I know this is a thread about Martinez, but wth happened to Osbourne, Smith etc on D. Rod starting over Choi? From the outside looking in, it appears different standards for some over others.

The staff can't know everything about a player when they recruit him. And sometimes they take risks, hoping they can coach something out of a player, whether it's work ethic or something else. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they miss. With Turner, they're going to hit - but you just have to be patient enough to allow a kid to become a finished product before writing him off after his freshman season. Give him time to learn the position - again, it was his first year at WR. He'll be a contributor next season.

And again, you're just talking about mistakes - it's not just about who dropped a pass or missed a block. Everyone on the offense made mistakes last year, including the guys who were starting. You can't just isolate one bad play and say, "See, why is he still in there? We should bench him!" The best player plays, and like you said, you're on the outside looking in. You don't get to see practice, you're not in the film study sessions - all you see is 60 minutes of football 13 times in the fall, and even then you're not paying as close attention as the coaches are.

This idea that Pelini plays favorites and has a doghouse or whatever is one of the more bizarre and false narratives I've seen prop up. He's a teacher, and good teachers don't reward bad behavior. It's not the "doghouse," it's not holding different players to different standards, it's simply rewarding the guys who are working the hardest, performing at the highest level, and who give their teammates the best chance to be successful.

It's amazing to see how many fans treat this staff as if they have no idea how to evaluate performance. Reminds me of overbearing parents who think they know more about teaching than the trained professional who's been teaching for 20 years.

 

[bshirt]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

I certainly hope they are not saying he is better, as that is just lunacy, but the comparison keeps getting made, lol.

Frazier clearly had a better O-Line, but Tmart has had pretty damn good WR and RB's imo. Burkhead is a machine and Helu was a game changer and is doing well in the League. I'd even say that TMart's WR's have been better than Fraziers. The OC is the biggest difference imo. TO's offenses were focused, consistent, and maxed out execution due to a structured system that had been in place for seasons. Our offensive philosophy is pretty much a train-wreck imo. Towards the end of the last 3 seasons, our offense has gotten worse. That is totally opposite of how it should be. I think that is because we have no "system" or core philosophy. Beck referred to our offense as a "mutt". How many times have you ever seen a mutt win a dog-show? NONE. They can make nice pets and can be cute to look at or play with, but when facing the elite, mutts don't get it done. THAT really hinders TMart, and our team, imo.

The biggest measure of a QB, imo, is their ability to make plays and run their offense. When does TMart make "that" play? When does he make "that" throw? I just don't see it. It seems to me that he would make a great scramble for a big 1st down, but he doesn't. Actually, imo, his running is not very good. Straight line speed? Great, but that doesn't really get showcased much at the QB spot. Regarding running the offense, our offense has had many, many underachieving efforts with TMart taking the snaps, and yes I know there are many other factors involved, but it just does not seem to be working to me. That are also many times that TMart does things that are just not good, like when he threw the ball to K Reed who was like 7 yards behind the LOS in the bowl game. Just throw the ball away. Where is the gamesmanship and awareness? Too many plays like that out of a 2-year starter imo.

Wow. Well, we'll agree to disagree then.

Roy & Rex are damn fine backs but neither is in the same galaxy as LP (on the field). Saying Frazier's Oline was "better" than Tmart's is like saying a brand new Maserati is "better" than a 20 year old used Pinto. While 100% true, that sure doesn't paint a picture at all of the truly MASSIVE difference in quality between the two. Lastly, I don't recall wrs C. Johnson, R, Baul, J. Vedral, etc being pass dropping machines and they blocked wayyyyyyyyy better than Bell, Turner or Reed.

The bottom line is that it's about 10,000 times easier for a qb to make plays and run their offense when their Oline is consistently steamrolling people into the dust, the wrs catch the ball and your OC has the opponent DC chugging down Jim Beam by halftime.

Also, in the unlikely event you do get stopped, so what? Punt the ball, let the defense totally destroy the offense and get the ball back in four plays.

Heh...you really don't think those things make much difference, huh? Well, that's ok. It would be so boring if we all agreed on everything, right?

GBR!!