If Stephen Fry Met God . . .

[knapplc]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

This "life on Earth" step was never necessary for God. God could have (being omnipotent) created us in Heaven without the capacity or desire for Sin. God did not need to give us that ability, God chose to give us that ability, tempted Adam beyond his simpleton's ability to overcome, and damned billions and billions and billions of people to life on a sinful Earth as a result of one man's choice.

Think about that. Everyone in history, ever, has to suffer because one man made a bad choice.

Would everyone, having been given Adam's start in Eden, have made exactly the same choice as Adam? Of those billions and billions of people, how many wouldn't have? 100 million? 1 million? 10,000? However many it is, every one of those potentially innocent people has been condemned to suffer on Earth by God because of some crackpot rule made in the depths of time.

Maybe. Or maybe God wanted to give people the choice to be with him, or not. Maybe the world is more like a filter. Filtering out the people who choose not to believe in Him and follow Him, from those who do. But I guess what you're saying is that, since God is omniscient and all powerful why didn't he just skip over creating the people who choose not to follow him. I dunno the answer to that.

These things are hard for me to wrap my head around. But that's why I keep thinking and studying them. I mean, God created all this knowing how it would turn out. After all, He's the Alpha and the Omega. He already knows whose names are written in the book. And whose names aren't. Some of the theories I've come up with are pretty, well let's say, wild. But really, neither me nor anyone else truly has all the answers. We can't.

The thing is, there's just no way we can hope to see things from God's perspective. Since we're not remotely close to being omniscient, we really can't come close to knowing the full extent of God's plans or desires for humanity. As smart as we humans think we are, we're really just scratching the surface of knowledge.

Even presuming you believe that no Man, starting from Adam's "perfect and pure" standpoint, could have foregone sin throughout his life, that still doesn't answer why the Forbidden Fruit was ever put there in the first place. When I was Christian my old fallback was "freedom will," but even this flies in the face of the concept of a loving God. No parent who loves their child would, when they are a toddler, put them in a room with a bowl of Smarties, tell the child they can't have one, then leave and expect the toddler to not even touch them. It's absurd, and beggars belief that this is the story we're accepting as the explanation for why we all must live in a world of pediatric cancer.

As for this, your metaphor leaves something to be desired. As I understand it, Eden was quite a place. It should be more like: No parent would put their child in a huge shopping mall where every store had candy, drinks, food and delicacies from all over the world, and in one kiosk there was a small bag of candy that he told us not to eat.

Could God have created Eden without the Tree of Knowledge? Or was God not omnipotent enough to do that?

 

[The Dude]

Are we saying Satan is as powerful (or more powerful) than God?

Seems like an easy cop out, but it would prove that God isn't all-powerful and didn't create everything after all.

Of course the answer is no. I have absolutely no idea how you could read my post and reach that conclusion. Oh well.

In the scenario you laid out it seemed to me He's not powerful enough to prevent Satan from making at least some of the rules. Either that, or He simply abides.
I know I would do anything in my power to prevent my children from suffering. In real life and in the hypothetical scenario we're discussing.

 

[maskershake]

The thing is, christianity isn't even an original idea. There are several instances where it has been copied from a previous religion. What makes all those other religions wrong?

 

[Landlord]

The thing is, christianity isn't even an original idea. There are several instances where it has been copied from a previous religion. What makes all those other religions wrong?

Examples please

 

[NUance]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

This "life on Earth" step was never necessary for God. God could have (being omnipotent) created us in Heaven without the capacity or desire for Sin. God did not need to give us that ability, God chose to give us that ability, tempted Adam beyond his simpleton's ability to overcome, and damned billions and billions and billions of people to life on a sinful Earth as a result of one man's choice.

Think about that. Everyone in history, ever, has to suffer because one man made a bad choice.

Would everyone, having been given Adam's start in Eden, have made exactly the same choice as Adam? Of those billions and billions of people, how many wouldn't have? 100 million? 1 million? 10,000? However many it is, every one of those potentially innocent people has been condemned to suffer on Earth by God because of some crackpot rule made in the depths of time.

Maybe. Or maybe God wanted to give people the choice to be with him, or not. Maybe the world is more like a filter. Filtering out the people who choose not to believe in Him and follow Him, from those who do. But I guess what you're saying is that, since God is omniscient and all powerful why didn't he just skip over creating the people who choose not to follow him. I dunno the answer to that.

These things are hard for me to wrap my head around. But that's why I keep thinking and studying them. I mean, God created all this knowing how it would turn out. After all, He's the Alpha and the Omega. He already knows whose names are written in the book. And whose names aren't. Some of the theories I've come up with are pretty, well let's say, wild. But really, neither me nor anyone else truly has all the answers. We can't.

The thing is, there's just no way we can hope to see things from God's perspective. Since we're not remotely close to being omniscient, we really can't come close to knowing the full extent of God's plans or desires for humanity. As smart as we humans think we are, we're really just scratching the surface of knowledge.

Even presuming you believe that no Man, starting from Adam's "perfect and pure" standpoint, could have foregone sin throughout his life, that still doesn't answer why the Forbidden Fruit was ever put there in the first place. When I was Christian my old fallback was "freedom will," but even this flies in the face of the concept of a loving God. No parent who loves their child would, when they are a toddler, put them in a room with a bowl of Smarties, tell the child they can't have one, then leave and expect the toddler to not even touch them. It's absurd, and beggars belief that this is the story we're accepting as the explanation for why we all must live in a world of pediatric cancer.

As for this, your metaphor leaves something to be desired. As I understand it, Eden was quite a place. It should be more like: No parent would put their child in a huge shopping mall where every store had candy, drinks, food and delicacies from all over the world, and in one kiosk there was a small bag of candy that he told us not to eat.

Could God have created Eden without the Tree of Knowledge? Or was God not omnipotent enough to do that?

Of course I believe God could have created Eden in any manner He wanted to. The thing is, I don't know why he did things the way he did. I don't know why there is evil in the world. I don't know why there is pediatric cancer. And I've spent a LOT of time thinking about it. (The answer I gave to the Dude above is where I'm at right now, with this question.) Given my limited smarts, I would have done things differently. But maybe if I was omniscient I would think the same way as God. And would have created things exactly as he created them. I'm not omniscient though. I'm the clay pot, not the potter. (Rom 9:21)

 

[HuskerShark]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

That's not at all what the Bible lays out as the way to Heaven.

I understand why this response deflected away from the actual point in the rest of that post. That point is incontrovertible, and therefore uncomfortable. Far easier to argue semantics than address the fact that God had no need to put Man on Earth, could have created Man happy and suffer-free in Heaven, but chose (as the story goes) to put Man on Earth with the full foreknowledge that Man would suffer miserably, and many, many, many of the humans God loves are damned to Hell as a result.

And how are you supposed to know that? There absolutely WAS a reason to put man on earth, or He wouldn't have done it.

 

[darkhorse85]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

That's not at all what the Bible lays out as the way to Heaven.

I understand why this response deflected away from the actual point in the rest of that post. That point is incontrovertible, and therefore uncomfortable. Far easier to argue semantics than address the fact that God had no need to put Man on Earth, could have created Man happy and suffer-free in Heaven, but chose (as the story goes) to put Man on Earth with the full foreknowledge that Man would suffer miserably, and many, many, many of the humans God loves are damned to Hell as a result.

And how are you supposed to know that? There absolutely WAS a reason to put man on earth, or He wouldn't have done it.

And yet you offer no explanation. Bravo.

 

[maskershake]

The thing is, christianity isn't even an original idea. There are several instances where it has been copied from a previous religion. What makes all those other religions wrong?

Examples please

https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/A%20Good%20Atheist%20Secularist%20Skeptical%20Book%20Collection/Parallels_between_Jesus_and_Horus_an_Egyptian_God.pdf

This is just the similarities of the Jesus story to Horus. Not trying to start an argument, just noting that there are other religions that were around long before chrisitianity. And they all have similar ideas, so to think that 'yours' is the only right one... I just think it's kind of arrogant.

 

[hskerprid]

Are we saying Satan is as powerful (or more powerful) than God?

Seems like an easy cop out, but it would prove that God isn't all-powerful and didn't create everything after all.

Of course the answer is no. I have absolutely no idea how you could read my post and reach that conclusion. Oh well.

In the scenario you laid out it seemed to me He's not powerful enough to prevent Satan from making at least some of the rules. Either that, or He simply abides.I know I would do anything in my power to prevent my children from suffering. In real life and in the hypothetical scenario we're discussing.

As would I. But life without disappointment or suffering is a life with out learning or decision making

 

[HuskerShark]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

That's not at all what the Bible lays out as the way to Heaven.

I understand why this response deflected away from the actual point in the rest of that post. That point is incontrovertible, and therefore uncomfortable. Far easier to argue semantics than address the fact that God had no need to put Man on Earth, could have created Man happy and suffer-free in Heaven, but chose (as the story goes) to put Man on Earth with the full foreknowledge that Man would suffer miserably, and many, many, many of the humans God loves are damned to Hell as a result.

And how are you supposed to know that? There absolutely WAS a reason to put man on earth, or He wouldn't have done it.

And yet you offer no explanation. Bravo.

I don't know what the reason is for sure, which is why I offer no explanation. Why would you expect me to know what God's reason for our existence is? All I'm saying is it's gratuitous to say that there's no reason for God to have placed man on earth.

 

[Landlord]

The thing is, christianity isn't even an original idea. There are several instances where it has been copied from a previous religion. What makes all those other religions wrong?

Examples please

https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/A%20Good%20Atheist%20Secularist%20Skeptical%20Book%20Collection/Parallels_between_Jesus_and_Horus_an_Egyptian_God.pdf

This is just the similarities of the Jesus story to Horus. Not trying to start an argument, just noting that there are other religions that were around long before chrisitianity. And they all have similar ideas, so to think that 'yours' is the only right one... I just think it's kind of arrogant.

Yeah, figured you'd link something with supposed Horus parallels. They're cherrypicking straw men.

I won't waste my time debunking all of them, because it is, in fact, a waste of time, but just as a few examples:

Horus wasn't born of a virgin. He was born of a magically fashioned golden phallus by Isis, who then impregnated herself.

There is no "Anup the Baptizer" in any Egyptian mythos. Anywhere. That is the brain child of Gerald Massey, who happens to not have any reputable regard by pretty much anyone other than people trying to invent Christ/Horus parallels.

Horus was born sometime in Oct/Nov, and there is no record of when Jesus was actually born - Christians later adopted the winter solstice in order to celebrate and worship in safety from persecution.

Horus didn't have twelve disciples - he had four demigods that followed him around, and some traditions have 16 human followers, and some blacksmiths and stuff, but nowhere is there mention of 12 disciples or anything close.

 

[knapplc]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

That's not at all what the Bible lays out as the way to Heaven.

I understand why this response deflected away from the actual point in the rest of that post. That point is incontrovertible, and therefore uncomfortable. Far easier to argue semantics than address the fact that God had no need to put Man on Earth, could have created Man happy and suffer-free in Heaven, but chose (as the story goes) to put Man on Earth with the full foreknowledge that Man would suffer miserably, and many, many, many of the humans God loves are damned to Hell as a result.

And how are you supposed to know that? There absolutely WAS a reason to put man on earth, or He wouldn't have done it.

I know that because I can reason. I can reason that an omnipotent god has no need to do anything. An omnipotent god determines every need, therefore has no need. If he doesn't, he is not omnipotent.

We know that God could have made Man unable to sin, and we know that because we know he is omnipotent. If he could not have done this, he is not omnipotent.

We know that God could have made Heaven the home of Man. If he could not have done this, he is not omnipotent.

So the choice is that God is either omnipotent, or that he chose to put Man in a dangerous situation. The danger, obviously, being that Man would fall away from God.

Choosing to intentionally put your child in danger is not the act of an all-loving God.

The tissue-thin explanation that "God told Adam not to eat from the Tree" is akin to telling a toddler not to do something. God even brought the tree to Adam's attention. Were NUance's explanation of a Garden of Eden full of really amazing things, and the Tree of Knowledge was just one of those amazing things and not extraordinary otherwise to be true, pointing out that particular tree only put it on Adam's radar, something (by that explanation) it probably wouldn't have been in the first place.

There's just so much nope there.

A parent who loves their child would never, ever risk losing them forever because they touched something bad. Think of the things that could kill your children. Guns. Knives. Chainsaws. Poisons. Child predators. We, imperfect as we are, take every precaution to keep these things from our children. We take ridiculous precautions on many of these things. Why? Because we love our kids. Love them so much. But the explanation of God is that he loves Man so much more. Because he's God.

So what does this more-loving God do? He puts the one thing his kids cannot touch right there, out in the open, no fence, no angel guarding it, nothing. And he lets Satan, the ultimate child predator, loose amongst his children without keeping tabs on him.

When Satan was tempting Eve, where was God? God is omnipresent, right? Why didn't God, the loving parent, step in and say, "WHOA! Get your butt outta here, Satan!" and save Eve? Was God gone that day?

God was there. God knew. And he let it happen. God let a child predator lead his children to their doom, and he watched it happen. That is not debatable - God is omnipresent.

Humans don't tolerate that kind of parenting from other humans. Not in America, for sure. We call that neglect. It's a felony, and you go to prison for it.

But God let it happen. And we know that, because we can reason.

At no time, under no circumstances, should a man ever pray to a god who's a worse parent than they are.

And the explanation for all that is '...there's a reason for it' ???

And when that reason is questioned, we fall back on the explanation, 'I can't understand it, because he's God and I'm not.'

That makes zero sense.

 

[walksalone]

You realize y'all are arguing about something there's no proof of...

White people, gotta have an answer to everything...

 

[JJ Husker]

God gave us the choice to freely love him. Sure he could've made it mandatory and given us no choice but what kind of love would that be showing him? Some may not like all the problems free choice introduces but it is a required element. Some may think they can outsmart God and do a better job based on this or that wrong or injustice or disease etc. but, if you really think about it, it has to be the way it is. I understand the feeling that it could be easier, better, different but IMO, it really can't. All these things are necessary for it to work. We mere humans think some of these things are terrible; pediatric cancer, bugs burrowing into eyes, etc. but maybe, just maybe, they seem a lot more worse to us than they really are in the grand scheme. I don't want to belittle anyone's hardship or plight but a few years of suffering may not be crap compared to an eternity in heaven and maybe that is how God looks at it. Caveat- unlike some of you, I am not qualified to question the ways and means of an allpowerful, omniscient God. I may try with all my might and brain power and reasoning but really it is just ridiculous to think a mere human can outsmart God. If that route is working for you, more power to ya but I know better.

 

[HuskerShark]

What if it wasn't God that introduced pediatric bone cancer into the world? Some people believe that much of the world's evil is from Satan. Would it make a difference if pediatric bone cancer and other such evils were caused by Satan in an effort to further separate us from God? Should God have prevented Satan from that? Should God prevent people from doing evil too? That is, should God take away our choice to do whatever we want, and instead limit us to only doing good? (If so, I sure hope He doesn't take away whiskey and cigars. LOL)

There shouldn't be a world in the first place. The point of this world is that Man lives his life by God's rules, and if we're good and do everything right, we get to go live in Heaven forever with him.

That's not at all what the Bible lays out as the way to Heaven.

I understand why this response deflected away from the actual point in the rest of that post. That point is incontrovertible, and therefore uncomfortable. Far easier to argue semantics than address the fact that God had no need to put Man on Earth, could have created Man happy and suffer-free in Heaven, but chose (as the story goes) to put Man on Earth with the full foreknowledge that Man would suffer miserably, and many, many, many of the humans God loves are damned to Hell as a result.

And how are you supposed to know that? There absolutely WAS a reason to put man on earth, or He wouldn't have done it.

I know that because I can reason. I can reason that an omnipotent god has no need to do anything. An omnipotent god determines every need, therefore has no need. If he doesn't, he is not omnipotent.

We know that God could have made Man unable to sin, and we know that because we know he is omnipotent. If he could not have done this, he is not omnipotent.

We know that God could have made Heaven the home of Man. If he could not have done this, he is not omnipotent.

So the choice is that God is either omnipotent, or that he chose to put Man in a dangerous situation. The danger, obviously, being that Man would fall away from God.

Choosing to intentionally put your child in danger is not the act of an all-loving God.

The tissue-thin explanation that "God told Adam not to eat from the Tree" is akin to telling a toddler not to do something. God even brought the tree to Adam's attention. Were NUance's explanation of a Garden of Eden full of really amazing things, and the Tree of Knowledge was just one of those amazing things and not extraordinary otherwise to be true, pointing out that particular tree only put it on Adam's radar, something (by that explanation) it probably wouldn't have been in the first place.

There's just so much nope there.

A parent who loves their child would never, ever risk losing them forever because they touched something bad. Think of the things that could kill your children. Guns. Knives. Chainsaws. Poisons. Child predators. We, imperfect as we are, take every precaution to keep these things from our children. We take ridiculous precautions on many of these things. Why? Because we love our kids. Love them so much. But the explanation of God is that he loves Man so much more. Because he's God.

So what does this more-loving God do? He puts the one thing his kids cannot touch right there, out in the open, no fence, no angel guarding it, nothing. And he lets Satan, the ultimate child predator, loose amongst his children without keeping tabs on him.

When Satan was tempting Eve, where was God? God is omnipresent, right? Why didn't God, the loving parent, step in and say, "WHOA! Get your butt outta here, Satan!" and save Eve? Was God gone that day?

God was there. God knew. And he let it happen. God let a child predator lead his children to their doom, and he watched it happen. That is not debatable - God is omnipresent.

Humans don't tolerate that kind of parenting from other humans. Not in America, for sure. We call that neglect. It's a felony, and you go to prison for it.

But God let it happen. And we know that, because we can reason.

At no time, under no circumstances, should a man ever pray to a god who's a worse parent than they are.

And the explanation for all that is '...there's a reason for it' ???

And when that reason is questioned, we fall back on the explanation, 'I can't understand it, because he's God and I'm not.'

That makes zero sense.

You sound just like all the know-it-all parents who tell teachers how they should run their classroom when they have no clue what they're talking about.