Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (Spoilers for Episode 7)

Cdog923 said:
Episode 1 has the best lightsaber fight in the series. 
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I think for some reason that's just really low on my list of stuff I care about. I never cared about Darth Maul. I don't remember the scene very well except him falling down the shaft. I like action movies but I guess with Star Wars I just don't care about the lightsaber duels. My favorite lightsaber battle is in Return of the Jedi because I had a massive crush on Luke in that black onesie and the colors of the lightsabers are really pretty in the dark.

 
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^^^ He does a really good job with those. I think some of his ideas are pretty out there and a bit silly, but a lot of the overarching themes and ideas he suggests are totally gold imo. The prequel series being a story of friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin would/could have been great.

 
Moiraine said:
I think for some reason that's just really low on my list of stuff I care about. I never cared about Darth Maul. I don't remember the scene very well except him falling down the shaft. I like action movies but I guess with Star Wars I just don't care about the lightsaber duels. My favorite lightsaber battle is in Return of the Jedi because I had a massive crush on Luke in that black onesie and the colors of the lightsabers are really pretty in the dark.
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That's actually my favorite fight in the series: Luke and Vader coming to a head, the culmination of their paths crossing throughout the series, plus Luke being on more even ground with Vader than in Empire, while also resisting the urge to turn to the dark side, all while redeeming his father. It ties in large part as to why I don't like The Last Jedi. The fight choreography in Phantom Menace is probably the best in the series, though. It strikes a nice balance between the heavy, two handed, deliberate combat of the OT and the hyper-movement of the later PT fights. There's meaning behind each of the strikes, as opposed to whatever dance moves Obi Wan and Anakin were doing in RotS. 

Landlord said:
^^^ He does a really good job with those. I think some of his ideas are pretty out there and a bit silly, but a lot of the overarching themes and ideas he suggests are totally gold imo. The prequel series being a story of friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin would/could have been great.
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Making Obi Wan the main protagonist of the PT and showing his growth from Padawan to disgraced Master (contrasting with Luke's arc in the OT) , while making the Rise and Fall of Anakin Skywalker the overarching theme of all 6 movies is spot-on what Lucas should have done. 

 
Landlord said:
^^^ He does a really good job with those. I think some of his ideas are pretty out there and a bit silly, but a lot of the overarching themes and ideas he suggests are totally gold imo. The prequel series being a story of friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin would/could have been great.
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Agreed. That was one of the scenes that made me cry. When Obi Wan was all "You were my brother!" And I told my mom I cried during Star Wars and she thought it was over Anakin and Padme :facepalm:

 
Landlord said:
A poorly told story isn't a good story, imo. That's the defining characteristic of what makes them any good or not. Michael Bay could/would completely sabotage a movie about any of the 25 most important moments in human history, but P.T. Anderson or the Coen Brothers could make the meager life of a grocery store clerk gripping and sensational.
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It was more how the darkside rose. Palpatine used a false flag operation to gain sympathy and manipulated his position to be elected to Supreme Chancellor. Then he created an exterior threat to make sure he kept the power while also stripping freedoms. Eventually getting to the point where he turned the Republic to an authoritative Empire to "Thunderous Applause".

The acting and dialogue are sketchy at best through the entire Prequel Trilogy, but the overarching plot I will defend.

 
whateveritis1224 said:
It was more how the darkside rose. Palpatine used a false flag operation to gain sympathy and manipulated his position to be elected to Supreme Chancellor. Then he created an exterior threat to make sure he kept the power while also stripping freedoms. Eventually getting to the point where he turned the Republic to an authoritative Empire to "Thunderous Applause".

The acting and dialogue are sketchy at best through the entire Prequel Trilogy, but the overarching plot I will defend.
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One of my favorite things was that they had the same actor, and he had some really good scenes.

 
whateveritis1224 said:
The acting and dialogue are sketchy at best through the entire Prequel Trilogy, but the overarching plot I will defend.
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I'd agree that the overarching theme of the fall of Anakin is a good one (and probably necessary given that 4-6 were about his redemption), but there's no overarching plot really. That's part of the problem. Episodes 4-6 have the Rebellion overcoming the Empire and Luke's hero story as the overarching plots. But what's the overarching plot for the prequels?

 
RedDenver said:
I'd agree that the overarching theme of the fall of Anakin is a good one (and probably necessary given that 4-6 were about his redemption), but there's no overarching plot really. That's part of the problem. Episodes 4-6 have the Rebellion overcoming the Empire and Luke's hero story as the overarching plots. But what's the overarching plot for the prequels?
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The overarching plot of the prequels is the fall of the Republic and Jedi engineered by Palpatine.

 
RedDenver said:
So episode 1 doesn't have either overarching plot. And the downfall of the Jedi is literally just an order given out and executed - takes about 3 minutes of screen time.

Which of us is the pot and which is the kettle?
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The whole reason the Trade Federation attacked Naboo was a manipulation (there's something about an important good for the Trade Federation being unreasonably taxed, or it was a trade  lane, I'm too tired to look it up right now) by Palpatine as a false flag operation to first remove the sitting Supreme Chancellor and second to use the invasion to gain sympathy votes to become the Supreme Chancellor. He then turned public opinion away from an institution that had helped keep the piece for 1000 years so that when Mace and his posse go to arrest him it becomes easy justification for their eradication in the 3 minutes of screen time (because again Palps ordered the Clone Army with the thing that made them turn on the Jedi to wipe them out).

 
RedDenver said:
So episode 1 doesn't have either overarching plot. And the downfall of the Jedi is literally just an order given out and executed - takes about 3 minutes of screen time.

Which of us is the pot and which is the kettle?
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You don't want to like them so that's that.  No amount of discussion is going to convince you that you're being shortsighted, so it is what it is.

 
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RedDenver said:
And the downfall of the Jedi is literally just an order given out and executed - takes about 3 minutes of screen time.
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I truly understand not liking the first 2 movies, because I also didn't like them, but I feel like you weren't paying attention or were too annoyed to remember what happened. Whateveritis covered it pretty well. Eps I-III detailed everything Sidious did that led up to the scene you're talking about. He orchestrated the war itself, the purchase of the clone army which was conveniently ready to use during said war, the building of the death star starting in or before Ep I, possibly the creation of Anakin (though that may have been Plagueis ), and of course Anakin's turning against the council. He played the Jedi from the start. That scene was the culmination of years and years of planning. The downfall of the jedi was years (and scenes) in the making. It's okay to not like any of it but your statement here is wholly inaccurate.

 
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Redux said:
You don't want to like them so that's that.  No amount of discussion is going to convince you that you're being shortsighted, so it is what it is.
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Again, pot meet kettle.

Moiraine said:
I truly understand not liking the first 2 movies, because I also didn't like them, but I feel like you weren't paying attention or were too annoyed to remember what happened. Whateveritis covered it pretty well. Eps I-III detailed everything Sidious did that led up to the scene you're talking about. He orchestrated the war itself, the purchase of the clone army which was conveniently ready to use during said war, the building of the death star starting in or before Ep I, possibly the creation of Anakin (though that may have been Plagueis ), and of course Anakin's turning against the council. He played the Jedi from the start. That scene was the culmination of years and years of planning. The downfall of the jedi was years (and scenes) in the making. It's okay to not like any of it but your statement here is wholly inaccurate.
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But we didn't see any of the planning that led up to the clones suddenly being controlled with a single command. And somehow also being too much for the Jedi when all previous evidence showed that the Jedi should have massacred the clones. It's an unearned twist.

whateveritis1224 said:
The whole reason the Trade Federation attacked Naboo was a manipulation (there's something about an important good for the Trade Federation being unreasonably taxed, or it was a trade  lane, I'm too tired to look it up right now) by Palpatine as a false flag operation to first remove the sitting Supreme Chancellor and second to use the invasion to gain sympathy votes to become the Supreme Chancellor. He then turned public opinion away from an institution that had helped keep the piece for 1000 years so that when Mace and his posse go to arrest him it becomes easy justification for their eradication in the 3 minutes of screen time (because again Palps ordered the Clone Army with the thing that made them turn on the Jedi to wipe them out).
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Those things you're mentioning all fit together, I agree. And I'll give you the rise of Palpatine as a plot. But the the eradication of the Jedi could have become a plot - I'm saying it wasn't as I explained above.

But I'm done bashing episode 8 and the prequels. Hopefully episode 9 exceeds my expectations like Solo did.

 
The Jedi were out number by hundreds or thousands, and they were typically taken by surprise by the very clones they grew to trust with their protection. Why do we need to see the order instilled in the clones. It's there. It's an order. It doesn't need all the explanation. The previous two episodes showed almost the entire setup, and the Jedi's reluctance to use the clones.

*Edit*  Also, I believe The Clones Wars cartoon covers how the order was implanted in the clones, and what they actually thought about it after they carried it out. I believe that series is still canon, and it covers a ton of back story from the universe.

 
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