Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (Spoilers for Episode 7)

Moiraine said:
I think you're missing his point. He's not saying they're not representative of actual thoughts people have. He's saying they're not a representative sample. It might be that 3% of the people who hated The Last Jedi hated it because they're racist or sexist. But maybe 50% of the comments from people who hated it are from racists/sexists. And I agree with him that it is probably a much smaller % in reality than you see on YouTube. Assholes tend to be louder and more prolific in their postings.

YouTube tends to have a lot of crazies in comments sections. There are also campaigns by hate groups to do these sorts of things. Hell just read what happened to the star of of Stranger Things recently. No, most people don't hate a 13 year old girl, but she was so bullied over the internet she shut down her online presence.
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Same thing happened to Kellie Marie Tran, aka Rose from TLJ.  And it was all racist and misogynistic hate.

I get what you're saying, but this fecal matter is far more widespread than you want to believe.  I mean refer to the Sexim and Racism threads.  All this bigotry is out there.  And while I concur it can be difficult to quantify, it is out there and it is more prevalent than one would think.

 
Making Chimichangas said:
Same thing happened to Kellie Marie Tran, aka Rose from TLJ.  And it was all racist and misogynistic hate.

I get what you're saying, but this fecal matter is far more widespread than you want to believe.  I mean refer to the Sexim and Racism threads.  All this bigotry is out there.  And while I concur it can be difficult to quantify, it is out there and it is more prevalent than one would think.
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It is more prevalent than I realized before... certain events that have transpired in the past couple years that we can't get into without it being moved to the politics forum, heh. But I still agree with Landlord's point that YouTube isn't a good representation of the Last Jedi audience.

 
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Making Chimichangas said:
@whateveritis1224, dude...that is GOLD!!!!

Although, Rian Johnson is playing a no-win game.  Here's what I mean: By daring the racist and misogynistic trolls to remake TLJ, if someone takes his offer (if it is real--which I doubt) he'll lose.  Why?  Because it doesn't matter how actually terrible the remake is, all racist and misogynistic a*holes will like it because it wasn't directed by Rian Johnson.  Here's what a remake of TLJ will look like:

*all white male cast

*nazi imagery and white power themes

*exclusion of anyone not white, male, and hetero

*everyone will bow down to, and admire, all white male characters.

People who hold nazi sympathies and/or beliefs will go see this movie 10x each if they have to.  All to prove their point.
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I forgot to mention it in my initial post but here are my thoughts that I posted on Reddit thread I learned this news from:

The remake guys would have yelled into the void until they decided that they had spent enough time and just moved on. It’s a stupid idea that doesn’t warrant anyone’s time.

Call out s#!tty fans. Those fans who harass actors/actresses/directors on social media to the point that some of them leave them. But I don’t think an employee of Lucasfilm should be calling this out. Feels kinda petty of him. Which might be what Mark is pointing out. Why do you care about this small thing 7 months after your movie released? Move on and start caring about the trilogy you are still in charge of.
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I guess Seth Rogen also went back an forth with them (mostly about the logistics of their plan and the fact that they have no f'n clue what they are doing). This terrible idea would have just been lost to the depths of the internet, but because Rian decided to bring it out to the light all it is doing is providing them a platform.

I should have posted this months ago, but I forgot and I couldn't really put my thoughts to words.  There was a large backlash to how Superman was portrayed in both Man of Steel and BvS by critics and how he wasn't Superman as seen in this story:

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

Unfortunately I could not locate the gentleman's thoughts on Luke and TLJ for comparison, but the general consensus from Media/Critics has been the Luke that was portrayed in TLJ was an extension of where he was at from the OT. The general consensus of Superman in his main 2 movies was that it was terrible (even though it was a new continuity and one person's idea of Superman). Why does one portrayal get a pass for the differences from the previous portrayal/portrayals and the other gets ripped to shreds?  Is it because they like Johnson more than Snyder?

This isn't addressing you specifically MC, as you are the most vocal TLJ lover here and I think you mentioned liking MoS and BvS, it's just an observation about a seemingly double standard.

 
whateveritis1224 said:
I forgot to mention it in my initial post but here are my thoughts that I posted on Reddit thread I learned this news from:

I guess Seth Rogen also went back an forth with them (mostly about the logistics of their plan and the fact that they have no f'n clue what they are doing). This terrible idea would have just been lost to the depths of the internet, but because Rian decided to bring it out to the light all it is doing is providing them a platform.

I should have posted this months ago, but I forgot and I couldn't really put my thoughts to words.  There was a large backlash to how Superman was portrayed in both Man of Steel and BvS by critics and how he wasn't Superman as seen in this story:

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

Unfortunately I could not locate the gentleman's thoughts on Luke and TLJ for comparison, but the general consensus from Media/Critics has been the Luke that was portrayed in TLJ was an extension of where he was at from the OT. The general consensus of Superman in his main 2 movies was that it was terrible (even though it was a new continuity and one person's idea of Superman). Why does one portrayal get a pass for the differences from the previous portrayal/portrayals and the other gets ripped to shreds?  Is it because they like Johnson more than Snyder?

This isn't addressing you specifically MC, as you are the most vocal TLJ lover here and I think you mentioned liking MoS and BvS, it's just an observation about a seemingly double standard.
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Well I am not sure if I am the "...most vocal TLJ lover..." but I absolutely do love that film.

And I did really like MoS.  I thought it was a very good origins story that was unfairly hated on by fans.

BvS though...great concept muddled by too many plot points and not enough time spent exploring WHY Batman distrusts Superman.

As far as the "double standard" with the DCEU and Star Wars... :dunno

 
A far better representation (though still overly weighted towards negative opinions) of TLJ would be the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which is at 46% with 200,000 reviews.

Here's the point I'm getting at. Let's assume for a second that that is accurately representative of the entire population. Let's also assume that everyone who dislikes it is a racist or misogynist or nazi sympathizer. That would mean 54% of America is essentially evil? Please. 

Let's say it's representative of the population but only 50%, a HUGE percentage, of the people who didn't like it were racists/misogynists/nazis. That would be 27% of America. That is...possible I guess, but still seems grossly high. 

Anecdotally, of the 20 or so opinions I know first hand of friends/acquaintances, I'd say 15 are very positive, and of the 5 that aren't, only one of those people I would consider as having problematic views of minorities and politics. 

 
Moiraine said:
It is more prevalent than I realized before... certain events that have transpired in the past couple years that we can't get into without it being moved to the politics forum, heh. But I still agree with Landlord's point that YouTube isn't a good representation of the Last Jedi audience.
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But it isn't just YouTube comments.  You do realize that racist, sexist, and misogynistic a*holes on Twitter and Instagram so virulently attacked Kelly Marie Tran and Daisy Ridley that they both deleted their Instagrams?  That John Boyega was harrassed, threatened, and attacked simply because he played a black stormtrooper.

Simply stated, both you and @Landlord are wrong here.  When attacks from racist and misogynistic man-babies (thank you Cher for that term) get so bad that a person deletes their social media, you do a huge disservice to the victims of this abuse by pretending that it isn't as bad as they think it is. 

 
Making Chimichangas said:
But it isn't just YouTube comments.  You do realize that racist, sexist, and misogynistic a*holes on Twitter and Instagram so virulently attacked Kelly Marie Tran and Daisy Ridley that they both deleted their Instagrams?  That John Boyega was harrassed, threatened, and attacked simply because he played a black stormtrooper.

Simply stated, both you and @Landlord are wrong here.  When attacks from racist and misogynistic man-babies (thank you Cher for that term) get so bad that a person deletes their social media, you do a huge disservice to the victims of this abuse by pretending that it isn't as bad as they think it is. 
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Yes I was aware of it, and it literally changes nothing in the argument. There could be 1,000 people harassing them, even 10,000, but that would still not make them an accurate representation of the people who disliked the movie.

The last paragraph here is just plain silly. We're not talking about whether this is bad or not. We're talking about the percentage of people who watched the Last Jedi hating it because they're racist/sexist. Huge difference there. We're also not talking about how bad the actors in The Last Jedi think it is. I have no idea how many of the fans the actors think hate the Last Jedi because they're racist/sexist. We're talking about how bad we think it is. Personally I think it's bad even if it's 1%. Maybe it's 10%, that's really bad too. We're not doing a disservice to anyone by saying YouTube/Instagram/social media is not an accurate representation of the general population. The fact of the matter is, it's not.

The people who hate it because there are Black people and women with significant roles are likely a much smaller group than indicated by social media. Assholes tend to be louder and more noticeable there. Neither Landlord or I are writing off the feelings of the people getting harassed by them. It's awful. They have every reason to be upset and react the way they did. That doesn't mean thexe assholes are representative of normal people who disliked the movie, or that they make up a majority of those people. It's illogical to draw that conclusion.

 
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@Moiraine, then we fundamentally disagree.

When you take everything into account:

*The misogyny directed at Felicity Jones, Kathleen Kennedy and Daisey Riddley

*The racism and/or misogyny directed at Kellie Marie Tran, and John Boyega

*The boycotting of Star Wars because it is "white genocide"

You Can't Make This S*** Up

*The amount of backlash The Last Jedi received

*The "Boycott Solo" movement

When you take EVERYTHING into account, to me it is illogical to assume there isn't mostly racism and misogyny behind a large majority of the anti-Star Wars movement.

 
Making Chimichangas said:
When you take everything into account:

*The misogyny directed at Felicity Jones, Kathleen Kennedy and Daisey Riddley

*The racism and/or misogyny directed at Kellie Marie Tran, and John Boyega

*The boycotting of Star Wars because it is "white genocide"

You Can't Make This S*** Up

*The amount of backlash The Last Jedi received

*The "Boycott Solo" movement

When you take EVERYTHING into account, to me it is illogical to assume there isn't mostly racism and misogyny behind a large majority of the anti-Star Wars movement.
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You're cobbling together unconnected things and trying to form a coherent whole. 

And you're leaving out one glaring part - several of these movies aren't very good. We're all on board with the prequels being iffy, and there were no allegations that the 'meh' reception they received was due to any racism or misogyny. 

Some people are racists, or misogynists, or both. But those people are a minority, both in society and in people who don't like these movies.

 
knapplc said:
You're cobbling together unconnected things and trying to form a coherent whole. 

And you're leaving out one glaring part - several of these movies aren't very good. We're all on board with the prequels being iffy, and there were no allegations that the 'meh' reception they received was due to any racism or misogyny. 

Some people are racists, or misogynists, or both. But those people are a minority, both in society and in people who don't like these movies.
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They're not unconnected.  This a predictable pattern of abuse that women and people of color have to endure daily.  And being famous and/or actors doesn't shield them from this ugly reality.  Is everyone who doesn't like these new Disney Star Wars films racist or misogynistic?  No.  But pretending or thinking all this stuff is being done by a small percentage of fans is ludicrous.  Racism and misogyny are huge problems in the Star Wars fandom.  Okay, we can debate "huge" but there is no denying it is an issue and it does have a negative effect.  

 
Making Chimichangas said:
This a predictable pattern of abuse that women and people of color have to endure daily.
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This is true.

Making Chimichangas said:
And being famous and/or actors doesn't shield them from this ugly reality.
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This is true.

Making Chimichangas said:
Okay, we can debate "huge" but there is no denying it is an issue and it does have a negative effect.  
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This is true.

Making Chimichangas said:
But pretending or thinking all this stuff is being done by a small percentage of fans is ludicrous.
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There is no evidence that it is a large percentage of fans.  They may be a vocal set of fans, but two people shouting in a library doesn't mean that everyone in the library is being loud.

 
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