Taylor Martinez Sports Science

[Hujan]

Tebow is a bad example. I'll spot you Vince Young, too, since his throwing motion was unorthodox. But those two guys--Tebow and VY--had impressive physical frames in addition to their running abilities. Tebow as 6'3" 245; VY was 6'5" 235. Martinez is what, 6'1 and 200?
Point being, when you get a QB who is a physical specimen and can move the chains with his feet, maybe you leave good enough alone and not mess with his throwing motion. Not to mention that despite their sub par mechanics, VY and Tebow could make all the throws they needed to. Haven't seen Martinez be able to do it. Perhaps it's because, unlike VY and Tebow, he doesn't have the arm strength to make the throws despite less-than-ideal mechanics.

Did you know there were similar criticisms of Vince Young on Texa$ message boards as we're seeing about Martinez after Young's Freshman year? VY had/has awful mechanics, was ripped for throwing side-arm, and was panned as a running QB with below average throwing skills. Texas was excited about his potential, but leery of his passing.

Kinda like Nebraska is with T-Mart.

Young's Redshirt Freshman stats:

Passing

84/143, 6 TD, 7 INT

Rushing

135 ATT/998 Yards, 7.4 AVG, 11 TD

To compare, Taylor Martinez' Redshirt Freshman stats:

Passing

116/193, 10 TD, 7 INT

Rushing

162 ATT/965 Yards, 6.0 AVG, 12 TD

Those are very comparable stats. Will T-Mart lead Nebraska to the heights Young did for Texas? Hard to say. T-Mart may not even start this year, if Carnes has anything to say about it. But if you're comparing the guys, it's hard to find too much fault with Martinez' Redshirt Freshman year, especially compared to Young's.

Of course I realize it . . . I offered him as an example. But again, I think VY's physical frame allowed him to overcome his bad mechanics. The reason that doesn't work in the NFL is because all the QBs are ~6'5" and you can no longer compensate with sheer size/strength for what you lack in technique.

And let's remember that Taylor's numbers came in a season in which we faced some extremely soft defenses. I don't recall what VY was going up against when he put up those numbers, but I am willing to bet those Ds were not as porous as the ones Taylor faced.

 

[zoogs]

Food for thought.

As a redshirt freshman during the 2003 season, Young was initially 2nd on the depth chart behind Chance Mock. However, Mock was benched halfway through the season (in the game against Oklahoma) in favor of Young. After that game, Young and Mock alternated playing time, with Young's running ability complementing Mock's drop-back passing.

As a redshirt sophomore in the 2004 season, Young started every game and led the Longhorns to an 11–1 season record (losing only to rival Oklahoma), a top 5 final ranking, and the school's first-ever appearance and victory in the Rose Bowl, in which they defeated the University of Michigan. He began to earn his reputation as a dual-threat quarterback by passing for 1,849 and rushing for 1,189 yards. The Texas coaches helped facilitate this performance by changing the team offensive scheme from the more traditional I-formation to a Shotgun formation with three wide receivers. This change gave the offense more options in terms of play selection, and consequently made it more difficult to defend against.

Vince Young: Wikipedia

 

[knapplc]

Of course I realize it . . . I offered him as an example. But again, I think VY's physical frame allowed him to overcome his bad mechanics. The reason that doesn't work in the NFL is because all the QBs are ~6'5" and you can no longer compensate with sheer size/strength for what you lack in technique.

And let's remember that Taylor's numbers came in a season in which we faced some extremely soft defenses. I don't recall what VY was going up against when he put up those numbers, but I am willing to bet those Ds were not as porous as the ones Taylor faced.

Frame doesn't have much to do with much in college. You think Crouch at 6'0" and 210lbs had a drastically different frame than Martinez at 6'1" and 205? We should be so lucky to have Martinez be a Second Coming of Eric Crouch. With Bo's defense and a decent O Line, that's a player that could take you places.

As for the competition Taylor faced compared to VY's, Sagarin has VY's 2003 campaign with the 47th rated SOS. T-Mart's SOS was 39th last year. Reasonably comparable.

 

[Hujan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but did not VY have the ability to throw on the run as well?

I don't know how VY's success can possibly be used to justify Taylor's status as our starting quarterback based solely on the fact that they both possess retarded throwing motions. For better or worse, they are not the same player.

Carnes is more VY than Taylor, IMO.

 

[Hujan]

Of course I realize it . . . I offered him as an example. But again, I think VY's physical frame allowed him to overcome his bad mechanics. The reason that doesn't work in the NFL is because all the QBs are ~6'5" and you can no longer compensate with sheer size/strength for what you lack in technique.

And let's remember that Taylor's numbers came in a season in which we faced some extremely soft defenses. I don't recall what VY was going up against when he put up those numbers, but I am willing to bet those Ds were not as porous as the ones Taylor faced.

Frame doesn't have much to do with much in college. You think Crouch at 6'0" and 210lbs had a drastically different frame than Martinez at 6'1" and 205? We should be so lucky to have Martinez be a Second Coming of Eric Crouch. With Bo's defense and a decent O Line, that's a player that could take you places.

As for the competition Taylor faced compared to VY's, Sagarin has VY's 2003 campaign with the 47th rated SOS. T-Mart's SOS was 39th last year. Reasonably comparable.

SOS does not say anything about D. VY might have gone against teams with solid Ds and no O, and Taylor the exact opposite and yet the SOS would be "comparable."

Crouch ran an option attack. Unless we are going back to the triple option, the Crouch-like comparisons are not necessarily a good thing.

 

[knapplc]

Food for thought.

As a redshirt freshman during the 2003 season, Young was initially 2nd on the depth chart behind Chance Mock. However, Mock was benched halfway through the season (in the game against Oklahoma) in favor of Young. After that game, Young and Mock alternated playing time, with Young's running ability complementing Mock's drop-back passing.

As a redshirt sophomore in the 2004 season, Young started every game and led the Longhorns to an 11–1 season record (losing only to rival Oklahoma), a top 5 final ranking, and the school's first-ever appearance and victory in the Rose Bowl, in which they defeated the University of Michigan. He began to earn his reputation as a dual-threat quarterback by passing for 1,849 and rushing for 1,189 yards. The Texas coaches helped facilitate this performance by changing the team offensive scheme from the more traditional I-formation to a Shotgun formation with three wide receivers. This change gave the offense more options in terms of play selection, and consequently made it more difficult to defend against.

Vince Young: Wikipedia

That's great, and I would be ecstatic if Martinez led us to an 11-1 record this year.... but he may not even start. Carnes is going to push him. After I drove the "Zac Lee is our starter, PERIOD" bandwagon last year, I'm not making any more predictions. And frankly, I don't care who leads the team, as long as we get to 11-1. Or better.

Speaking of Zac, he was at the Volleyball match against Tianjin China tonight (a Husker win in five sets, BTW). Didn't get a chance to talk to him, but he was sitting next to Tara Mueller until he left after the third game. Easily the best-looking duo in the Coliseum.

 

[knapplc]

SOS does not say anything about D. VY might have gone against teams with solid Ds and no O, and Taylor the exact opposite and yet the SOS would be "comparable."

Crouch ran an option attack. Unless we are going back to the triple option, the Crouch-like comparisons are not necessarily a good thing.

Both lines completely true. I don't know how else to compare VY's and TM's opponents, except to go through each team's schedule and break down NCAA stats on Opponent Points Allowed and blah blah blah, but I'm not going to do that. I'm tired after a big Easter day and a HUGE Husker VB match tonight. So I'm going to bed. And the Crouch/Martinez comparisons are difficult, agreed, but I don't know who else to compare him to, or if such comparisons are even useful. I just threw it out there because both run the ball and they're both about the same stature.

Let's just hope T-Mart gets to blow up an Iowa DB like Crouch did. That would be a thing of beauty, wouldn't it?

 

[zoogs]

Zac Lee is dreamy, isn't he? :wub:

The two things I got from that though: Vince Young was a rotational player in his freshman year with Chance Mock, not a fulltime starter. He broke out his sophomore year with a system more suited to his strengths.

Maybe Denard Robinson is a good comparison, with the caveat that Robinson might be a better passer (or better on QB fundamentals) than Taylor. Outrageous highlights, unreal athletic ability, and early on Heisman hype in a shotgun spread offense.

 

[knapplc]

Zac Lee is dreamy, isn't he? :wub:

Totally going to bed after this, but I have to say this:

In person, Zac is a strikingly handsome guy. I'm comfortable enough in my sexuality to take the teasing that's probably going to earn me, but straight up, Zac is very good-looking.

 

[Hujan]

SOS does not say anything about D. VY might have gone against teams with solid Ds and no O, and Taylor the exact opposite and yet the SOS would be "comparable."

Crouch ran an option attack. Unless we are going back to the triple option, the Crouch-like comparisons are not necessarily a good thing.

Both lines completely true. I don't know how else to compare VY's and TM's opponents, except to go through each team's schedule and break down NCAA stats on Opponent Points Allowed and blah blah blah, but I'm not going to do that. I'm tired after a big Easter day and a HUGE Husker VB match tonight. So I'm going to bed. And the Crouch/Martinez comparisons are difficult, agreed, but I don't know who else to compare him to, or if such comparisons are even useful. I just threw it out there because both run the ball and they're both about the same stature.

Let's just hope T-Mart gets to blow up an Iowa DB like Crouch did. That would be a thing of beauty, wouldn't it?

That much we can agree on. I hope to God Martinez works out, I really do, but I am worried. In any event, and at the end of the day, we all want what's best for our boys in red.

And, you are correct: Zac Lee is a good looking guy. (No homo.) He fits the quarterback stereotype to a T.

Happy Easter, Knap.

 

[The Dude]

He's all eyebrows.

 

[bshirt]

His Spring Game stats were skewed by his sack. He looked decent (but not Taylor of old) on his scramble for a first down in the first quarter.

As for the no evidence of fixing things... that's hard to say. By all accounts the offense was so limited and so little of what they actually worked on all Spring that you can't base much off of what you saw. They could be working feverishly on all of the problems we're discussing and we just may not have seen them in the game.

I'm not sure which way that cuts, Knap. The more basic the play calling, you'd think the more Taylor would have been able to focus on the fundamentals. Really, the whole point of the vanilla play calling at the SG was to let guys focus on proper execution in blocking, tackling, catching, ball security, and other fundamentals. Why, then, did Taylor come out looking like total a$$ with his footwork, hips, throwing motion, etc.?

It irritates me to no end; it really does. If you were a Division 1 starting QB for whom the weakest part of your game was throwing fundamentals, you think you'd take every opportunity possible to throw after practice or go to camps or whatever it took in order to get there. It's like those high-profile basketball players that are excellent in every regard, but yet cannot shoot free throws. How hard is it to get there early or stay after practice and not let yourself leave until you hit 10, 20, or eventually 30 consecutive free throws? I never shot a basketball in my life until a few summers ago when I'd go 5 days a week and shoot free throws. In no time at all, I was making 10 consecutive shots a day and could routinely make 20 consecutive shots.

I would love to be Brion Carnes right about now.

I little bit different when you have 20,000 fans screaming at you while you shoot free throws. Or in Martinez's case, 85,000 fans screaming at you and moaning everytime he throws an incomplete pass.

Even if Ted's wrs dropped it.

 

[Saunders]

I think it's tough to hang too much on even one awful scrimmage performance. It was only one after all, and it's the whole body of work that you look at. Additionally, Sam McKewon has that theory of Taylor being stacked up against worse than Carnes and Kellogg faced, as well as getting that blindside corner blitz called and being affected by lack of cohesion on the offensive unit. Combined with not being close to our real offense that is being installed, I don't think it is a very good indicator of much...

Especially since Carnes is not close to having picked up the whole offense. I am one of the biggest fans of Carnes' skills on this board, but I have to say I am completely against the idea of him starting next year because it does not seem to be a good situation for him, and consequently, the team. We don't start a player who is still picking up the offense like he is, unless we have to, because there will be growing pains. Everything about Carnes right now screams "player who needs more seasoning/waiting in the wings." If we assert him as a starter in front of last year's incumbent, it's setting him up to fail.

I felt sort of similar about Taylor last year, only without being a fan of Taylor's skillset.

I think one thing we did see in the spring game...Taylor's not that great at rollout passes. Yeah, he had a completion, and I only have access to some highlight and fancams, but look at Taylor throwing on the run and then look at Brion throwing on the run. It doesn't mean we can't have it at all as part of the offense; multiplicity in attack is good. But I don't expect it to be the centerpiece in Taylor's throwing arsenal.

Another thing, his injury. I believe someone mentioned that Taylor pushed himself into playing this spring in spite of the injury. Hopefully the layover until fall gives Taylor plenty of time to heal. And the bit about Taylor needing to realize that he has to improve his fundamentals...seeking out a QB coach is a very promising first step.

If forced to choose between a QB with more solid passing skills but less familiarity with the offense or a QB with crappy throwing abilities who is more familiar with the offense, I'd take the former every time.

Your point about it being one scrimmage would have some value if T-Mart and Green looked good to end last year, and came out flat in the scrimmage. The problem for many fans like me is that the spring game seemed to confirm our worst fears: Green and Martinez have not improved at all from last December.

Good. You can have Sam Keller. I'll take Tommie Frazier. :facepalm:

Also, I'll take the coaches and players word (who have said it multiple times) over your armchair QB analysis.

 

[huskerscott]

I think it's tough to hang too much on even one awful scrimmage performance. It was only one after all, and it's the whole body of work that you look at. Additionally, Sam McKewon has that theory of Taylor being stacked up against worse than Carnes and Kellogg faced, as well as getting that blindside corner blitz called and being affected by lack of cohesion on the offensive unit. Combined with not being close to our real offense that is being installed, I don't think it is a very good indicator of much...

Especially since Carnes is not close to having picked up the whole offense. I am one of the biggest fans of Carnes' skills on this board, but I have to say I am completely against the idea of him starting next year because it does not seem to be a good situation for him, and consequently, the team. We don't start a player who is still picking up the offense like he is, unless we have to, because there will be growing pains. Everything about Carnes right now screams "player who needs more seasoning/waiting in the wings." If we assert him as a starter in front of last year's incumbent, it's setting him up to fail.

I felt sort of similar about Taylor last year, only without being a fan of Taylor's skillset.

I think one thing we did see in the spring game...Taylor's not that great at rollout passes. Yeah, he had a completion, and I only have access to some highlight and fancams, but look at Taylor throwing on the run and then look at Brion throwing on the run. It doesn't mean we can't have it at all as part of the offense; multiplicity in attack is good. But I don't expect it to be the centerpiece in Taylor's throwing arsenal.

Another thing, his injury. I believe someone mentioned that Taylor pushed himself into playing this spring in spite of the injury. Hopefully the layover until fall gives Taylor plenty of time to heal. And the bit about Taylor needing to realize that he has to improve his fundamentals...seeking out a QB coach is a very promising first step.

If forced to choose between a QB with more solid passing skills but less familiarity with the offense or a QB with crappy throwing abilities who is more familiar with the offense, I'd take the former every time.

Your point about it being one scrimmage would have some value if T-Mart and Green looked good to end last year, and came out flat in the scrimmage. The problem for many fans like me is that the spring game seemed to confirm our worst fears: Green and Martinez have not improved at all from last December.

Good. You can have Sam Keller. I'll take Tommie Frazier. :facepalm:

Also, I'll take the coaches and players word (who have said it multiple times) over your armchair QB analysis.

Great, you can take Taylor Martinez. I'll take Brion Carnes.

 

[Saunders]

I think it's tough to hang too much on even one awful scrimmage performance. It was only one after all, and it's the whole body of work that you look at. Additionally, Sam McKewon has that theory of Taylor being stacked up against worse than Carnes and Kellogg faced, as well as getting that blindside corner blitz called and being affected by lack of cohesion on the offensive unit. Combined with not being close to our real offense that is being installed, I don't think it is a very good indicator of much...

Especially since Carnes is not close to having picked up the whole offense. I am one of the biggest fans of Carnes' skills on this board, but I have to say I am completely against the idea of him starting next year because it does not seem to be a good situation for him, and consequently, the team. We don't start a player who is still picking up the offense like he is, unless we have to, because there will be growing pains. Everything about Carnes right now screams "player who needs more seasoning/waiting in the wings." If we assert him as a starter in front of last year's incumbent, it's setting him up to fail.

I felt sort of similar about Taylor last year, only without being a fan of Taylor's skillset.

I think one thing we did see in the spring game...Taylor's not that great at rollout passes. Yeah, he had a completion, and I only have access to some highlight and fancams, but look at Taylor throwing on the run and then look at Brion throwing on the run. It doesn't mean we can't have it at all as part of the offense; multiplicity in attack is good. But I don't expect it to be the centerpiece in Taylor's throwing arsenal.

Another thing, his injury. I believe someone mentioned that Taylor pushed himself into playing this spring in spite of the injury. Hopefully the layover until fall gives Taylor plenty of time to heal. And the bit about Taylor needing to realize that he has to improve his fundamentals...seeking out a QB coach is a very promising first step.

If forced to choose between a QB with more solid passing skills but less familiarity with the offense or a QB with crappy throwing abilities who is more familiar with the offense, I'd take the former every time.

Your point about it being one scrimmage would have some value if T-Mart and Green looked good to end last year, and came out flat in the scrimmage. The problem for many fans like me is that the spring game seemed to confirm our worst fears: Green and Martinez have not improved at all from last December.

Good. You can have Sam Keller. I'll take Tommie Frazier. :facepalm:

Also, I'll take the coaches and players word (who have said it multiple times) over your armchair QB analysis.

Great, you can take Taylor Martinez. I'll take Brion Carnes.

Cool. I'll take the Freshman All American, and you can have the Scout Team MVP. We know you would pick a one legged blind kid over Taylor, but that's ok.