Tommy A. - And various other Husker QBs

[Savage Husker]

But I figured Tom knew more about football than I did, and I'm pretty sure he and other coaches often call less-obvious plays in order to keep defenses off balance and to set up the next play.

As far as Savage's Crouch memories: Dan Alexander and Correll Buckhalter both had outstanding seasons with Crouch as QB, and several other Husker RBs got meaningful touches, so I don't think the team suffered from Crouch - or Solich - calling the QB's number too often. Although they did slide down that slope when Jamaal Lord took over.

I try to tell myself the same thing, prevent the backside LB from cheating to wide side(?) and keep the defense honest.
To your last paragraph; I'm torn on how it made me feel, I don't have a firm opinion on how it affected the team as a whole, I don't know football Xs and Os that well. My hypothesis is there is a connection and somewhere it negatively impacts the offense. I'm wrong until I learn a reason why it hurt the offense.

 

[cm husker]

To throw my 2¢ in about the Crouch era...I lived in WA and only got to see a handful of televised games, plus not many games were televised back then, but every game felt like "Crouch to the left!" or "Crouch to the right!" or "Crouch up the middle!" The team became so one-dimensional it was frustrating to watch. He was dynamic, but I think it also took away from the team as a whole.

If you're willing to reconsider your opinion, I can post some statistics and other info that refutes that narrative, which was based more on perception than reality.

Then again, it's tough to argue we should take the ball out of the hands of our heisman QB (the most gifted runner at that position that NU has ever fielded).

Football is about winning games, not posting "well balanced" stat lines.

Wow, dude. Wow.
And no, my opinion is more than just perception and does have merit. Under Solich, the quarterback run game became a higher percentage of the offense than the championship years. Check the stats for yourself and you'll see the progression of attempts by the QB, it was even higher with Lord - who wasn't close to being a Heisman.

% of QB run attempts to Total Run Attempts:

1990- 22% '95- 19% 2000- 30%

'91- 24% '96- 21% '01- 34%

'92- 22% '97- 28% '02- 35%

'93- 23% '98- 30% '03- 34%

'94- 17% '99- 32%

CM, you can take it however you want. Being balanced has multiple meanings when dealing with offenses in college football. I'm not stating that Crouch shouldn't have ran the ball, he was obviously a phenomenal athlete, but an observation on how the dynamic of the offense shifted.

I'm having a little trouble reading your numbers, but of course the %'s were higher outside of the elite years, especially because there were a lot of blowouts that meant that option would be less used later in games.

In any event, Frost ran it something like 176 times in 1997. Crouch ran for about the same number of times in 1999 and 2001 and less in 1998 and 2000. Considering there were more closer games in those years, that makes a bit of sense.

Anyway, that stuff is ancient history at this point. I just think that if we are going to talk about the history, we should keep it in context.

p.s., as a sidenote to an earlier comment, from a quick review, it doesn't look like the numbers support that the FB was used more by Solich than under TO.

 

[Savage Husker]

To throw my 2¢ in about the Crouch era...I lived in WA and only got to see a handful of televised games, plus not many games were televised back then, but every game felt like "Crouch to the left!" or "Crouch to the right!" or "Crouch up the middle!" The team became so one-dimensional it was frustrating to watch. He was dynamic, but I think it also took away from the team as a whole.

If you're willing to reconsider your opinion, I can post some statistics and other info that refutes that narrative, which was based more on perception than reality.

Then again, it's tough to argue we should take the ball out of the hands of our heisman QB (the most gifted runner at that position that NU has ever fielded).

Football is about winning games, not posting "well balanced" stat lines.

Wow, dude. Wow.And no, my opinion is more than just perception and does have merit. Under Solich, the quarterback run game became a higher percentage of the offense than the championship years. Check the stats for yourself and you'll see the progression of attempts by the QB, it was even higher with Lord - who wasn't close to being a Heisman.

% of QB run attempts to Total Run Attempts:

1990- 22% '95- 19% 2000- 30%

'91- 24% '96- 21% '01- 34%

'92- 22% '97- 28% '02- 35%

'93- 23% '98- 30% '03- 34%

'94- 17% '99- 32%

CM, you can take it however you want. Being balanced has multiple meanings when dealing with offenses in college football. I'm not stating that Crouch shouldn't have ran the ball, he was obviously a phenomenal athlete, but an observation on how the dynamic of the offense shifted.

I'm having a little trouble reading your numbers, but of course the %'s were higher outside of the elite years, especially because there were a lot of blowouts that meant that option would be less used later in games.

In any event, Frost ran it something like 176 times in 1997. Crouch ran for about the same number of times in 1999 and 2001 and less in 1998 and 2000. Considering there were more closer games in those years, that makes a bit of sense.

Anyway, that stuff is ancient history at this point. I just think that if we are going to talk about the history, we should keep it in context.

p.s., as a sidenote to an earlier comment, from a quick review, it doesn't look like the numbers support that the FB was used more by Solich than under TO.

Good way to dodge the facts, bud. Attempting to save face after calling me out on "perception" and then getting fact checked with stats to back my point, you're making a "perception" claim about the option not being ran in blowouts...you're some kind of special. Keep shifting the goal posts.

 

[cm husker]

To throw my 2¢ in about the Crouch era...I lived in WA and only got to see a handful of televised games, plus not many games were televised back then, but every game felt like "Crouch to the left!" or "Crouch to the right!" or "Crouch up the middle!" The team became so one-dimensional it was frustrating to watch. He was dynamic, but I think it also took away from the team as a whole.

If you're willing to reconsider your opinion, I can post some statistics and other info that refutes that narrative, which was based more on perception than reality.

Then again, it's tough to argue we should take the ball out of the hands of our heisman QB (the most gifted runner at that position that NU has ever fielded).

Football is about winning games, not posting "well balanced" stat lines.

Wow, dude. Wow.And no, my opinion is more than just perception and does have merit. Under Solich, the quarterback run game became a higher percentage of the offense than the championship years. Check the stats for yourself and you'll see the progression of attempts by the QB, it was even higher with Lord - who wasn't close to being a Heisman.

% of QB run attempts to Total Run Attempts:

1990- 22% '95- 19% 2000- 30%

'91- 24% '96- 21% '01- 34%

'92- 22% '97- 28% '02- 35%

'93- 23% '98- 30% '03- 34%

'94- 17% '99- 32%

CM, you can take it however you want. Being balanced has multiple meanings when dealing with offenses in college football. I'm not stating that Crouch shouldn't have ran the ball, he was obviously a phenomenal athlete, but an observation on how the dynamic of the offense shifted.

I'm having a little trouble reading your numbers, but of course the %'s were higher outside of the elite years, especially because there were a lot of blowouts that meant that option would be less used later in games.

In any event, Frost ran it something like 176 times in 1997. Crouch ran for about the same number of times in 1999 and 2001 and less in 1998 and 2000. Considering there were more closer games in those years, that makes a bit of sense.

Anyway, that stuff is ancient history at this point. I just think that if we are going to talk about the history, we should keep it in context.

p.s., as a sidenote to an earlier comment, from a quick review, it doesn't look like the numbers support that the FB was used more by Solich than under TO.

Good way to dodge the facts, bud. Attempting to save face after calling me out on "perception" and then getting fact checked with stats to back my point, you're making a "perception" claim about the option not being ran in blowouts...you're some kind of special. Keep shifting the goal posts.

I'm not shifting the goal posts. Your original contention, and the wide spread perception, is that Solich's offense was all "QB right, QB left, QB up the middle" but in reality, it was usually less than 1/3 of the rushes (and even a smaller % of called played considering scrambles) and only a small uptick from '97.

As a side note, a lot of teams have moved to using their QBs as more central rusher in an attack. Think Meyers' offenses, Oregon offenses, Texas with v young, etc.

 

[84HuskerLaw]

It appears Savage posted the numers and they were dramatic in terms of increase in the number and percentage of plays that were QB runs. Crouch WAS the offense and then Lord followed. Frank just ran the QB nearly double the amount of Tom and it was more than just perception that Frank turned the offense into QB right, left and up the middle! Frank did have Crouch throw. Now, someone questioned my claim that Osborne supported Newcombe over Crouch in the QB race. I distinctly recall one of the very few Osborne 'letters to the editor' type articles but I do believe the article was in the Lincoln paper about the very time that Crouch quit the team and headed back to Omaha because it appeared Newcombe was going to win the QB job. In my view, he should have won the job. At the time I felt strongly that had Newcombe been chosen, Frank would have won a national title and perhaps things could have been much different. It was a terrible blow when Bobby blew out his knee as he was, again according to TO, one of most gifted atheletes and Tom believed would be our best QB ever! He either wrote the letter to the paper or was quoted at length. I do remember it was rather striking at the time for Osborne had done very little to publicly support Frank verbally as I think he wanted Frank to succeed on his own but there was a definite QB controversy over Crouch vs Newcombe and perhaps TO wanted to keep the thing from becoming a team dispute internally as well. Also, I think he felt he needed to intervene to help Frank as the Omaha boosters were apparently pressuring him big time to play Crouch (the Omaha kid) over the Arizona kid

I am not going to spend the time to attempt to research back so many years to find some article to cite. I just remember it and remember discussing it with friends, etc at the time. I don't believe I would have imagined it. I also personally attended a football banquet for recruiting and so on in which Tom spoke quite candidly about Newcombe and his great excitement in having him on the team and his regret that although he recruited him, he had then retired and would not be fortunate enough to coach him. He was very bullish on Bobby.

 

[BigRedBuster]

To throw my 2¢ in about the Crouch era...I lived in WA and only got to see a handful of televised games, plus not many games were televised back then, but every game felt like "Crouch to the left!" or "Crouch to the right!" or "Crouch up the middle!" The team became so one-dimensional it was frustrating to watch. He was dynamic, but I think it also took away from the team as a whole.

If you're willing to reconsider your opinion, I can post some statistics and other info that refutes that narrative, which was based more on perception than reality.

Then again, it's tough to argue we should take the ball out of the hands of our heisman QB (the most gifted runner at that position that NU has ever fielded).

Football is about winning games, not posting "well balanced" stat lines.

Wow, dude. Wow.And no, my opinion is more than just perception and does have merit. Under Solich, the quarterback run game became a higher percentage of the offense than the championship years. Check the stats for yourself and you'll see the progression of attempts by the QB, it was even higher with Lord - who wasn't close to being a Heisman.

% of QB run attempts to Total Run Attempts:

1990- 22% '95- 19% 2000- 30%

'91- 24% '96- 21% '01- 34%

'92- 22% '97- 28% '02- 35%

'93- 23% '98- 30% '03- 34%

'94- 17% '99- 32%

CM, you can take it however you want. Being balanced has multiple meanings when dealing with offenses in college football. I'm not stating that Crouch shouldn't have ran the ball, he was obviously a phenomenal athlete, but an observation on how the dynamic of the offense shifted.

I'm having a little trouble reading your numbers, but of course the %'s were higher outside of the elite years, especially because there were a lot of blowouts that meant that option would be less used later in games.

In any event, Frost ran it something like 176 times in 1997. Crouch ran for about the same number of times in 1999 and 2001 and less in 1998 and 2000. Considering there were more closer games in those years, that makes a bit of sense.

Anyway, that stuff is ancient history at this point. I just think that if we are going to talk about the history, we should keep it in context.

p.s., as a sidenote to an earlier comment, from a quick review, it doesn't look like the numbers support that the FB was used more by Solich than under TO.

Good way to dodge the facts, bud. Attempting to save face after calling me out on "perception" and then getting fact checked with stats to back my point, you're making a "perception" claim about the option not being ran in blowouts...you're some kind of special. Keep shifting the goal posts.

It's a fact that TO increased the QB runs with Frost. If you compare Crouch to TF then there is a big difference. There isn't nearly as big of difference between Crouch and Frost.

It wasn't like all of a sudden when Frank took over the QB runs shot up.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Yeah, all I can go by are my own memories.

Bobby Newcombe was going to be the second coming of Johnny Rodgers, and although he was slotted to be the classic Nebraska wingback, the fact that he'd played some QB in high school got everybody excited about Bobby handling the ball on every offensive play. By this point there was no premium on the QB being able to pass.

I know Newcombe got injured and perhaps was never the same, but I could have sworn he was a perfectly healthy quarterback when it became apparent that he didn't run the Nebraska option game with the same instincts as his predecessors. Or his successor. And if Bobby was healthy enough to run deep routes and return punts the rest of his Husker career (he was and he did) then it wasn't injury that kept him from QB greatness. The healthy Bobby Newcombe averaged less than 3 yards a carry.

As unprovable theories go, it's really shaky to suggest Nebraska would have been more successful with Bobby Newcombe than our only Heisman Trophy quarterback, who actually did get us a play or two away from a National Championship.

 

[cm husker]

Good points, Guy. To add to that, I remember when Frankie London was going to be a Heisman winner too.

Stuff happens. Hard for me to look back and question Frank too much based on the history sense his firing and the comparison to 95% of offensive play callers since then.

 

[Savage Husker]

To throw my 2¢ in about the Crouch era...I lived in WA and only got to see a handful of televised games, plus not many games were televised back then, but every game felt like "Crouch to the left!" or "Crouch to the right!" or "Crouch up the middle!" The team became so one-dimensional it was frustrating to watch. He was dynamic, but I think it also took away from the team as a whole.

If you're willing to reconsider your opinion, I can post some statistics and other info that refutes that narrative, which was based more on perception than reality.

Then again, it's tough to argue we should take the ball out of the hands of our heisman QB (the most gifted runner at that position that NU has ever fielded).

Football is about winning games, not posting "well balanced" stat lines.

Wow, dude. Wow.And no, my opinion is more than just perception and does have merit. Under Solich, the quarterback run game became a higher percentage of the offense than the championship years. Check the stats for yourself and you'll see the progression of attempts by the QB, it was even higher with Lord - who wasn't close to being a Heisman.

% of QB run attempts to Total Run Attempts:

1990- 22% '95- 19% 2000- 30%

'91- 24% '96- 21% '01- 34%

'92- 22% '97- 28% '02- 35%

'93- 23% '98- 30% '03- 34%

'94- 17% '99- 32%

CM, you can take it however you want. Being balanced has multiple meanings when dealing with offenses in college football. I'm not stating that Crouch shouldn't have ran the ball, he was obviously a phenomenal athlete, but an observation on how the dynamic of the offense shifted.

I'm having a little trouble reading your numbers, but of course the %'s were higher outside of the elite years, especially because there were a lot of blowouts that meant that option would be less used later in games.

In any event, Frost ran it something like 176 times in 1997. Crouch ran for about the same number of times in 1999 and 2001 and less in 1998 and 2000. Considering there were more closer games in those years, that makes a bit of sense.

Anyway, that stuff is ancient history at this point. I just think that if we are going to talk about the history, we should keep it in context.

p.s., as a sidenote to an earlier comment, from a quick review, it doesn't look like the numbers support that the FB was used more by Solich than under TO.

Good way to dodge the facts, bud. Attempting to save face after calling me out on "perception" and then getting fact checked with stats to back my point, you're making a "perception" claim about the option not being ran in blowouts...you're some kind of special. Keep shifting the goal posts.

It's a fact that TO increased the QB runs with Frost. If you compare Crouch to TF then there is a big difference. There isn't nearly as big of difference between Crouch and Frost.
It wasn't like all of a sudden when Frank took over the QB runs shot up.

You're correct. Frost did increase the number of run attempts under TO. Frost's 176 attempt year was the highest for a QB under TO, but it was also a year they ran the ball nearly 100 more times than any average TO season from '92-'97, hence, why the QBs only accounted for 28% of total attempts, which is still lower than any other year Solich coached.
The year I reference Crouch was because it felt like Crouch being a one man show compared to years past (34%). Which, it was 6% more than '97 Frost and 12% more than TOs average over his final 6 seasons. I calculated his final 6 because 1) If I go back further it only strengthens my point even more and 2) Solich only coached 6 seasons at NU.

Yes, the QB run game was high with Frost, but given the data range, it's a deviant number - 28% for one year, compared to 22% during the final 6 years, and 4% higher than next highest QB attempts. Solich was at 32% during his tenure, and Crouch exceeded that number, but with Lord as QB, Solich grew that percentage!

I'm not saying this to take it out on you BigRedBuster, but I was making just a comment about what it felt like during Crouch's run. It is a slight knock but it wasn't to take away from Crouch, nor the need of Crouch. In a follow up to Guy, I admitted I don't know the negative effects of it. What I'm directly saying right now, is I have proven facts to support my opinion, toward an individual who notoriously rubs members the wrong way, and condescendingly makes a remark about his "facts" and my "perception" but yet has provided nothing to refute my stats and his perceived claim - which is what he accused me of.

I can handle, and appreciate, someone providing information to correct my opinion, but I'm not going to accept,

nor respect someone who attempts to hold some superior knowledge over my head like I need to beg for his wisdom.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

The problem/perception Savage Husker had with Eric Crouch is the same one I had with Jamaal Lord. The stats didn't really influence me. Something just didn't pass the eye test.

 

[BigRedBuster]

If frost ran it 176 times in 1997 and it was increased by 6 percentage points, how many more times per game did crouch run it?

 

[cm husker]

If frost ran it 176 times in 1997 and it was increased by 6 percentage points, how many more times per game did crouch run it?

Less than Frost in 2 of 4 seasons. 180 times and something like 206 over 13 games in '99 and 2001, respectively.

 

[Savage Husker]

If frost ran it 176 times in 1997 and it was increased by 6 percentage points, how many more times per game did crouch run it?

To answer your question, it was 4 more attempts per game between those two seasons, 14vs18. Every other season prior it was just over 10 attempts per game for the QB position. Under Solich, the QB position rushed about 18 attempts per game.
Is a 4 attempt difference that much? I get it, it's not THAT big of a difference, but for me when you look at the broader scope and they're at 18/10 split, that is a noticeable difference, hence my initial post.

Lol, Crouch's first season he played in 8 games and he only rushed 1 attempt in the opener. His sophomore year he lead the team in rushing attempts, but we don't need to include that.

 

[cm husker]

How do you calculate 4 more times per game? It was 30 more carries over a 13 game season, no? 206 attempts in 2001 versus 176 in 1997 by the starter. And that was at the max.

Think other bits of your math need checking too.

 

[Savage Husker]

Excuse me, it was 3.3 more carries per game, over a 12 game season.