Vince Young better than Tommie Fraizer???

[papersun87]

I didn't read the thread, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned:

Tommie Frazier led a team of incredible athletes. Vince Young CARRIED a team of above-average-at-best athletes to a national championship game and took down the almighty USC in a come-from-behind victory. While we all know in our hearts that Frazier was the man, it's going to look to everyone else like Young was the better QB.

 

[DeathCultArmaggedon]

I didn't read the thread, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned:

Tommie Frazier led a team of incredible athletes. Vince Young CARRIED a team of above-average-at-best athletes to a national championship game and took down the almighty USC in a come-from-behind victory. While we all know in our hearts that Frazier was the man, it's going to look to everyone else like Young was the better QB.

I don't think anyone can ever say a Texas squad from the last decade has had "above-average-at-best athletes". Their teams consistently have some of the best players in the country. Why does no one seem remember that the team Vince Young "carried" had Limas Sweed, Justin Blalock, Brian Robison, David Thomas, Cedric Griffin, Tarell Brown, Selvin Young, Aaron Ross, Michael Huff, Michael Griffin, and Ahmad Hall on it's roster?

2005 Texas Roster

If that's "above-average-at-best athletes", then I want Nebraska to have "above-average-at-best athletes" in every recruiting class.

 

[papersun87]

:dunno I'm just trying to say what I think THEY'RE thinking.

 

[junior4949]

Everyone had better brace themselves for the Tebow vs. Frazier best ever college QB because I have no doubts it's on its way. VY had a better season than Frazier ever did, but was he a better college QB? Maybe, I don't know. Texas does not win the NC without VY. Does NU win the NC without Frazier? Probably. We won in 94' because of the OL completely wearing down Miami. Frazier was actually pulled from the game because of his poor play. It was the OL and RB's that won the game. Do we win the 94' NC game without Fraier? Yeah, probably so. VY more than likely loses the debate as being a better college QB than Frazier quite simply because he didn't play as long. One great season, does not easily compare to one great career. However, we will be asked the Tebow vs. Frazier question and to me it looks like Tebow comes out the winner especially if they win their 3rd NC in 4 years.

If Florida wins again this year it will be official: Tebow is better than Frazier.

And that's fine with me, because we still had the best team for 2 years and the most dominant team ever.

<_< Teboverated has only won ONE national title! he was NOT the starter for the first one, it was chris leak! ESPN really BS's people and they believe it, Tebow is not a good runner and only a slightly above average passer at best. yeah he can get a first down on short yardage situations such as 3rd and 1, but so can any fullback! the guy does not cut well and he has almost no field vision.

he will eventually be exposed as a system qb and them maybe some people will lose the Tebowners they have for him! :wacko:

Frazier won 2 NC's in 3 years. He won no Heisman award. Tebow has won the Heisman. He's started and won one NC. He may very well start and win 2 NC. And, he did play during a NC season. He could potentially be part of a team that won 3 NC in 4 years. It's going to be very difficult unless looking through the thickest of thick Husker glasses to not say Tebow had a better career than Frazier. It's all I'm saying. People could very well say that Frazier wasn't the starter in 94' as Berringer started more games that year than Frazier did.

It's great for debate, but I don't think any of the 3 QB's discussed here (VY, TF, or Tebow) were the best college QB's ever. IMO, Brad Smith was the best college QB ever considering the stats he rolled up for a career. VY may have had one better season than Brad Smith, but Brad Smith's #'s were just sick. Then, you have to consider what kind of team he played on and what kind of a tool for a coach he played for. To roll up a 1,000 2,000 season is all but unheard of. To do it twice, phenomenal.

 

[Blackshirt316]

junior, you do know the Heisman Trophy is the most overrated piece of hardware ever right? The best player doesn't usually win it, it usually goes to the current media darling and is little more than a popularity trophy.

If it was a real award given to the best player in the game in a given year, more than half the people on the recipients list wouldn't be near it.

The fact that Ron Dayne won it, and that a Cornerback also has won the award should tell you all you need to know about what kind of real value it has as an "MVP" award.

 

[Enhance]

junior, you do know the Heisman Trophy is the most overrated piece of hardware ever right? The best player doesn't usually win it, it usually goes to the current media darling and is little more than a popularity trophy.

If it was a real award given to the best player in the game in a given year, more than half the people on the recipients list wouldn't be near it.

The fact that Ron Dayne won it, and that a Cornerback also has won the award should tell you all you need to know about what kind of real value it has as an "MVP" award.

To add to that, it also has a lot to do with how the team is playing. Take ISU's Troy Davis from the 1990's (thanks for the name fix Blackshirt316). The guy was animal and racked up ridiculous amounts of numbers, yet he wasn't even one of the final 3 in contention.

 

[Blackshirt316]

Enhance89, Troy Smith played for Ohio State.

Are you maybe thinking of the halfback, Troy Davis who should have won it in 1996?

That is a great year to pinpoint though, the winner was Danny Weurfull, not because he was the best player but because he was the QB on the National Championship team. The fact that Troy Davis and Jake Plummer were better players than Weurfell but came in 2nd and 3rd because they weren't on great teams tells a lot, the fact that an offensive lineman finished fourth tells even more.

 

[husker B-rent]

Everyone had better brace themselves for the Tebow vs. Frazier best ever college QB because I have no doubts it's on its way. VY had a better season than Frazier ever did, but was he a better college QB? Maybe, I don't know. Texas does not win the NC without VY. Does NU win the NC without Frazier? Probably. We won in 94' because of the OL completely wearing down Miami. Frazier was actually pulled from the game because of his poor play. It was the OL and RB's that won the game. Do we win the 94' NC game without Fraier? Yeah, probably so. VY more than likely loses the debate as being a better college QB than Frazier quite simply because he didn't play as long. One great season, does not easily compare to one great career. However, we will be asked the Tebow vs. Frazier question and to me it looks like Tebow comes out the winner especially if they win their 3rd NC in 4 years.

If Florida wins again this year it will be official: Tebow is better than Frazier.

And that's fine with me, because we still had the best team for 2 years and the most dominant team ever.

<_< Teboverated has only won ONE national title! he was NOT the starter for the first one, it was chris leak! ESPN really BS's people and they believe it, Tebow is not a good runner and only a slightly above average passer at best. yeah he can get a first down on short yardage situations such as 3rd and 1, but so can any fullback! the guy does not cut well and he has almost no field vision.

he will eventually be exposed as a system qb and them maybe some people will lose the Tebowners they have for him! :wacko:

Frazier won 2 NC's in 3 years. He won no Heisman award. Tebow has won the Heisman. He's started and won one NC. He may very well start and win 2 NC. And, he did play during a NC season. He could potentially be part of a team that won 3 NC in 4 years. It's going to be very difficult unless looking through the thickest of thick Husker glasses to not say Tebow had a better career than Frazier. It's all I'm saying. People could very well say that Frazier wasn't the starter in 94' as Berringer started more games that year than Frazier did.

It's great for debate, but I don't think any of the 3 QB's discussed here (VY, TF, or Tebow) were the best college QB's ever. IMO, Brad Smith was the best college QB ever considering the stats he rolled up for a career. VY may have had one better season than Brad Smith, but Brad Smith's #'s were just sick. Then, you have to consider what kind of team he played on and what kind of a tool for a coach he played for. To roll up a 1,000 2,000 season is all but unheard of. To do it twice, phenomenal.

and everything you just said points to Tebow being more accomplished! being accomplished does not make you a better player.

Ryan Leaf was also very accomplished......

 

[Enhance]

Everyone had better brace themselves for the Tebow vs. Frazier best ever college QB because I have no doubts it's on its way. VY had a better season than Frazier ever did, but was he a better college QB? Maybe, I don't know. Texas does not win the NC without VY. Does NU win the NC without Frazier? Probably. We won in 94' because of the OL completely wearing down Miami. Frazier was actually pulled from the game because of his poor play. It was the OL and RB's that won the game. Do we win the 94' NC game without Fraier? Yeah, probably so. VY more than likely loses the debate as being a better college QB than Frazier quite simply because he didn't play as long. One great season, does not easily compare to one great career. However, we will be asked the Tebow vs. Frazier question and to me it looks like Tebow comes out the winner especially if they win their 3rd NC in 4 years.

If Florida wins again this year it will be official: Tebow is better than Frazier.

And that's fine with me, because we still had the best team for 2 years and the most dominant team ever.

<_< Teboverated has only won ONE national title! he was NOT the starter for the first one, it was chris leak! ESPN really BS's people and they believe it, Tebow is not a good runner and only a slightly above average passer at best. yeah he can get a first down on short yardage situations such as 3rd and 1, but so can any fullback! the guy does not cut well and he has almost no field vision.

he will eventually be exposed as a system qb and them maybe some people will lose the Tebowners they have for him! :wacko:

Frazier won 2 NC's in 3 years. He won no Heisman award. Tebow has won the Heisman. He's started and won one NC. He may very well start and win 2 NC. And, he did play during a NC season. He could potentially be part of a team that won 3 NC in 4 years. It's going to be very difficult unless looking through the thickest of thick Husker glasses to not say Tebow had a better career than Frazier. It's all I'm saying. People could very well say that Frazier wasn't the starter in 94' as Berringer started more games that year than Frazier did.

It's great for debate, but I don't think any of the 3 QB's discussed here (VY, TF, or Tebow) were the best college QB's ever. IMO, Brad Smith was the best college QB ever considering the stats he rolled up for a career. VY may have had one better season than Brad Smith, but Brad Smith's #'s were just sick. Then, you have to consider what kind of team he played on and what kind of a tool for a coach he played for. To roll up a 1,000 2,000 season is all but unheard of. To do it twice, phenomenal.

and everything you just said points to Tebow being more accomplished! being accomplished does not make you a better player.

Ryan Leaf was also very accomplished......

So was Hitler :thumbs

 

[junior4949]

Accomplished? Ok, let's compare their stats then. Tebow in only 2 years of starting has 6,390 passing yards. He completes 65% of his passes for right at 10 yards per attempt. Frazier over 4 years of starting had 4,003 yards. He completed 49.1% or less than half of his passes. He passed for only 7.9 yards per attempt. Hmm, stats show Tebow wins the passing debate hands down. Now on to the rushing. Tebow with only 2 years of starting under his belt has 2,037 yards rushing. Frazier over 4 years of starting only had 2,263 yards. I think it's pretty naive to believe Tebow won't get at least 200 yards this year which will put him up there with a 4 years starter. Frazier rushed for 5.9 yards per carry while Tebow is rushing for 4.3 yards per carry. I would say they're pretty even in the rushing category. Frazier beats him in yards per carry, but Tebow is gonna have more rushing yards for a career. Statswise, Tebow gets the nod. I'm not sure where accomplished even comes into the picture.

 

[Blackshirt316]

Again with the stats? Of course Tebow is going to have better stats when he's done but those are highly subjective as well.

Tebow is asked to throw a LOT more than Frazier was, he is asked to hand it off a LOT less and he has NEVER come out of a game at halftime unless injured.

How many games in which Frazier started did he finish and take every snap in the game at Nebraska? How many times has Tebow not?

 

[husker B-rent]

Accomplished? Ok, let's compare their stats then. Tebow in only 2 years of starting has 6,390 passing yards. He completes 65% of his passes for right at 10 yards per attempt. Frazier over 4 years of starting had 4,003 yards. He completed 49.1% or less than half of his passes. He passed for only 7.9 yards per attempt. Hmm, stats show Tebow wins the passing debate hands down. Now on to the rushing. Tebow with only 2 years of starting under his belt has 2,037 yards rushing. Frazier over 4 years of starting only had 2,263 yards. I think it's pretty naive to believe Tebow won't get at least 200 yards this year which will put him up there with a 4 years starter. Frazier rushed for 5.9 yards per carry while Tebow is rushing for 4.3 yards per carry. I would say they're pretty even in the rushing category. Frazier beats him in yards per carry, but Tebow is gonna have more rushing yards for a career. Statswise, Tebow gets the nod. I'm not sure where accomplished even comes into the picture.

first of all, frazier was not a 4 year starter.......

the difference between 4.3 and 5.9 is actually quite staggering as that is roughly the difference between a below average Iback and an above average Iback and in fact Tebow is running in a SPREAD option which should be easier to pick up rushing yards in as it spreads the defense out more than your traditional triple option.

also as was discussed earlier in this thread, another reason why they call it a spread option is because they pass the ball more. when you pass the ball more you have a chance to get into rythme. we passed 14 times per game over TFs starting qb career whereas the gators with tebow over his starting career are passing 30 attempts per game while also getting more offensive snaps per game (and its not close) because they run NO HUDDLE! of course if Tebow gets to throw the ball more often he is going to have the better passing stats!

and rushing yards per career with only 4.3 ypc only means that you had way more attempts.

as for accomplished, you rattled off all of Tebows accomplishments in your last post! how many national titles he started for or didnt start for, how he has a hiesman and how he is gonna win another of both! so that is where accomplished comes into the picture, you put it there!

your stats which show tebow as a passer and Frazier as a runner, which we already knew, really do not show anything. you need to watch both players to really appreciate just how good frazier really was. not only could he plow through players (which is the only thing tebow does when he runs) but he could cut and see the field so much better than tebow and its really not that close.

 

[husker B-rent]

Again with the stats? Of course Tebow is going to have better stats when he's done but those are highly subjective as well.

Tebow is asked to throw a LOT more than Frazier was, he is asked to hand it off a LOT less and he has NEVER come out of a game at halftime unless injured.

How many games in which Frazier started did he finish and take every snap in the game at Nebraska? How many times has Tebow not?

very good point.

i dont know how old junior is but i dont think he ever watched frazier play a game..... :dunno

 

[Enhance]

Accomplished? Ok, let's compare their stats then. Tebow in only 2 years of starting has 6,390 passing yards. He completes 65% of his passes for right at 10 yards per attempt. Frazier over 4 years of starting had 4,003 yards. He completed 49.1% or less than half of his passes. He passed for only 7.9 yards per attempt. Hmm, stats show Tebow wins the passing debate hands down. Now on to the rushing. Tebow with only 2 years of starting under his belt has 2,037 yards rushing. Frazier over 4 years of starting only had 2,263 yards. I think it's pretty naive to believe Tebow won't get at least 200 yards this year which will put him up there with a 4 years starter. Frazier rushed for 5.9 yards per carry while Tebow is rushing for 4.3 yards per carry. I would say they're pretty even in the rushing category. Frazier beats him in yards per carry, but Tebow is gonna have more rushing yards for a career. Statswise, Tebow gets the nod. I'm not sure where accomplished even comes into the picture.

first of all, frazier was not a 4 year starter.......

the difference between 4.3 and 5.9 is actually quite staggering as that is roughly the difference between a below average Iback and an above average Iback and in fact Tebow is running in a SPREAD option which should be easier to pick up rushing yards in as it spreads the defense out more than your traditional triple option.

also as was discussed earlier in this thread, another reason why they call it a spread option is because they pass the ball more. when you pass the ball more you have a chance to get into rythme. we passed 14 times per game over TFs starting qb career whereas the gators with tebow over his starting career are passing 30 attempts per game while also getting more offensive snaps per game (and its not close) because they run NO HUDDLE! of course if Tebow gets to throw the ball more often he is going to have the better passing stats!

and rushing yards per career with only 4.3 ypc only means that you had way more attempts.

as for accomplished, you rattled off all of Tebows accomplishments in your last post! how many national titles he started for or didnt start for, how he has a hiesman and how he is gonna win another of both! so that is where accomplished comes into the picture, you put it there!

your stats which show tebow as a passer and Frazier as a runner, which we already knew, really do not show anything. you need to watch both players to really appreciate just how good frazier really was. not only could he plow through players (which is the only thing tebow does when he runs) but he could cut and see the field so much better than tebow and its really not that close.

:yeah

To expand somewhat, but not really related to what B-rent was saying, this is sort of like comparing apples to oranges imho. You have Frazier, the head honcho of an option run offense. You then have Tebow, who is the leader of a spread option attack, an attack that passes far more than the option game does.

It's important to understand that in an option offense, Frazier did perfect, because it isn't about him. The option offense is more about the running backs, the full backs, and play actions every now and then. The quarterback, generally, isn't supposed to do the brute of the work.

I don't think it's fair to compare any of these guys. They all run different offenses, all were awesome in their own right, and comparing these guys will just throw us in a vicious circle. Statistically, Tebow and Young are probably better players, but how would we ever know for sure that Frazier isn't the best? There is a one decade separation between Frazier and Young/Tebow, and every year players get better and faster.

 

[VA Husker Fan]

I don't buy that "rhythm" argument about passing. A team that rarely passes (like Frazier's) has the advantage of often catching defenses stacked up against the run, not ready for a pass.

Certainly you can't compare total yards and TDs with Frazier's limited passing. You can compare QB ratings since those are all per pass stats.

Frazier actually doesn't compare that badly to Young: 126, 127, 116, 156 through his 4 years.

Young was 130, 128, 163 in his 3.

Tebow is 201, 172, 172. The 201 freshman year is a product of very limited number of passes, with 5 TDs in 33 attempts in mostly goal line situations skewing the numbers.