kansas45

9 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Yeah and for some students they feel more comfortable sharing their thoughts on a discussion board.

So that means we would all be good at a discussion board if this were a class. Some of us would be demanding for extra credit by the shear volume of posts. The problem is this: once you have an anonymous name, you have more freedom; once you have your real name, you will not be likely to post in fear of the "cancel culture" and swaying away from those who are dominate. Thus, people will tend to err on the side of caution and tiptoe through issues. 

If any of us here had our true identity revealed, we would be much more different in how we respond and post. Ben Franklin used an alias. 

5 minutes ago, 84HuskerLaw said:

Not to be a downer but the 2020 fb season IS a big loss no matter what happens unless they have full stadiums and all the games as originally scheduled.  

Playing a few games will reduce the loss - some maybe - but its a fiscal nightmare on 10th st - in any event.

I have a feeling now that this report by Brett McMurphy is a signal that the NCAA BOG vote today is to NOT cancel football. I mean, if you do not have to test after someone get's Covid, heck, it's ok to play only if you show signs and symptoms. What timing to influence the vote. This 11th hour information indicates that we will have football and no cancellations. All those schools that cancelled their seasons are now looking foolish. 

10 hours ago, Savage Husker said:

I think you’re making an assumption here, I speak from feedback I hear from students and from what I read. It’s not passion about any one method, it’s that there are options out there for students and the delivery is still proficient, and my goal is to help find the right fit for a student. Connected Learning is a good alternative for those who might not be able to commute, but want that set time and chance to engage with the class yet. Unlike a sole online class where the instructor engages through the LMS with announcements and messages, while the class engages in thread discussions based on weekly assignments. 

I take it that you are an academic advisor? But the term "Connected Learning" is nothing more than a packaged term to signify something special when it really isn't. No different than that worthless model called "service learning." Capitalizing it does not make it any better and is only capitalized by the proponents to say that they have a model that is superior to others in their attempt to push their model so people will go "ohhh and ahhh" over it. But when you boil it all down, it is nothing more than an online class with a synchronous component built into it. The instructor still has announcements and messages and assignments in the platform delivery system. 

6 minutes ago, teachercd said:

K-12, you need to be at school, socializing.  We all know those super nerds in HS that never socialized, got great grades, went to college and basically flunked out.  You need to learn how to interact.

I agree with that. There are just those students who are not motivated to do things online unless they have that interaction, that room that focuses on things and offers that atmosphere of responsibility and importantly structure. The temptation of just playing Playstation all day is just too great in my view. And I would imagine that there are those college students who need that structured schedule and responsibility to attend courses as well as taking examinations that can be proctored by an instructor. The online proctoring could be problematic if the student's learning platform from the institution is not compatible with what the student possesses as technology. 

21 minutes ago, Savage Husker said:

I am not an educator, but I work in higher education.

Ahhh...this is why you are passionate about  this "connected learning" and is considered a far superior mode to delivery of content than that of online and/or hybrid or face-to-face encounters. Makes sense. 

But isn't Zoom no different than an online class because the class is completing just a portion of the model that is synchronous but is still considered distance and/or online/remote whereas the online version solely without a "live" version or portion of the class is considered asynchronous? And are all LMS (learning management systems) differ in their bells and whistles that can either add or subtract from the online learning? And is there the aspect of the content that is being presented as well as the skill level of the professor that can impact the quality or quantity of this "connected learning" model?

13 minutes ago, Savage Husker said:

It’s called “Connected Learning” where you have a professor lecture in front of online students “zooming” in while they are also in front of classroom. Pretty legit.

And this method has been demonstrated to be more effective than in person classes especially for subjects such as anatomy or chemistry or physics labs or plant biology labs or other hands-on learning experiences typically seen in some courses? And do you have a lot of experience teaching by this method? 

9 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

A confrontation is long over due.  There are far more efficient ways to teach classes than the current system.

And these efficient ways to teach classes are.....? 

57 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Some colleges are going to try in-person learning. They will also have an online-learning option. Some colleges aren't even trying. My friend's daughter's college, University of Seattle, finally gave up this week. Online only. If the dominoes start toppling, others may yet join them. 

 

But "completely online" is a recipe for a different disaster. Imagine paying $30,000 to $60,000 for your kid to sit in their bedroom taking classes on Zoom. Imagine every class and vocation that requires physical tools and interaction. How much value do you put on the college experience itself? Many colleges have to raise tuition because they are bleeding cash all over the place. My daughter and her friends are all planning gap years and hiatuses, and both private and public universities may not survive the exodus.

This is one of the concerns. There are other concerns as well. One of those concerns is "catching the virus"; another concern is what has been mentioned which is cost vs benefit when most colleges have advertised the concept of "small class sizes" and "getting to know a professor." Another is the residential living expense on campus. Why come to a campus that is online and just stay in your dorm doing online courses? Some schools are having to confront the bloated costs to run a university with little to no students. 

11 minutes ago, 307husker said:

We cannot say this for certain given the multitude of variables in play.

I have a question for all of you:

Background: you have just been named as an official person based on your intensive and extensive knowledge, research and study on this issue and you represent a university that has college football namely a P5 school. But for simplicity sake, let's say that you are appointed by the University of Nebraska, as a voting member, to vote in tomorrow's NCAA BOG meeting tomorrow and the only thing on the agenda is:

1. Do we or do we not cancel the fall 2020 championships?

How do you vote? Do not weasel out of this one and say "I don't have all the information like they do." I believe you do. You can read a scoreboard just as good as the next person.  

Addition: do NOT say "table the motion" or "wait til the next meeting." How do you vote NOW?

17 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Yeah, all my former students excited to head off to college and be on campus.  I don't blame them, I would be as well.  What % of college kids are going to be wearing masks on campus?  10%?  Maybe?

If the school sets the policy down and is enforced, no student will be allowed to enter a classroom without a mask. As per not being in class, then I believe the numbers will drop significantly. What do people do when we are in Walmart? They put on the mask right before they get in and the minute they get out, off comes the mask. 

But I anticipate that all colleges and universities will go completely online for the fall semester as all plans I have seen are based on the term "tentative."

7 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Also I have to ask, what abou normal every day people? We are going to test football players daily for COVID with instant results while people can hardly get tested and have to wait 10 days to get results when they do? Seem like priorities are in all the wrong places to me

I believe this issue will come to the forefront tomorrow at the NCAA BOG. Why use up vital resources for 13,000 student-athletes as opposed to those that need the resources now? 

I still go back to the premise of the ideal that the NCAA has been pushing all along that these are students who happen to play football and should be no different than the rest of the student body. Remember, these people on the BOG are mainly academics. Yes, they are a politicians but they still have, at their core, their academic mission that they can all point to. 

You see that John Cleese is holding a pig...get it...pigskin?....related to football?

But I think we have missed the argument here because this is a crucial aspect. 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/ncaa-board-of-governors-vote-could-strike-significant-blow-to-fbs-college-football-being-played-this-fall/

On Friday, the NCAA Board of Governors is scheduled to consider voting on whether to cancel fall championships. One source told CBS Sports that is the only agenda item for the NCAA's highest governing body.While the vote -- in the moment -- would have no direct or immediate impact on the FBS, the implications of such a decision are significant, layered, complicated and maybe tragic.

While the season probably isn't going to go away Friday, it soon could. Through that board -- mostly presidents and chancellors from all NCAA divisions -- the association has more leverage than ever over major-college football, a sport of which it has largely lost oversight.

My prediction: I will predict that these people vote to cancel fall sports championships in an effort to put back and emphasize the "student" in "student-athlete"; thus maintaining its sense of being an amateur sport and at the same time, gain back some authority over the sport. The article mentions that here:

With Friday's vote, the board could win back some of that lost turf while backing the FBS football into a corner. 

Thus, the NCAA would be able to hold off or "kick the can down the road" so to speak, in avoiding the legal issues and the issues of NIL as well as the "paid employee" situation while retaining their monopoly. And at the same time, have the major virtue signal that follows the premise of "student-athlete health and safety is paramount" premise that has been bandied around. These folks are in a delicate situation as they will be blamed for being the impetus for driving the dismantling of a season; however, I am thinking that they are looking at the long-term gain plan and the avoiding of the outrage and grievance industry especially in a pandemic. Also, there has been some concern of student-athletes in the PAC12 hitching a fit about their demands. What better way than to shut down that argument for now? 

27 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Ecuador?  That has to be the first time anyone has ever used that country as an example for anything other than "You know, by the Galapagos Islands"

Or drug cartels. 

Here is something that few have discussed. https://www.si.com/college/westvirginia/football/lyons-sends-letter-to-ncaa-bog-urging-patience

NCAA Board of Governors meets on Friday. Here is the list of people. We will see what these people vote on to see if there are any fall championships. If no fall championships, could be the death knell just like when they cancelled baseball and other sports championships. Yes, I know football is different but if they cancel the volleyball, do the dominoes really start to fall? 

http://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=EXEC

But I see this move in lobbying the BOG to be nothing more than stalling for time when time is running out and hoping for some miracle to occur.  

30 minutes ago, KingBlank said:

Thanks doctor, pandemic solved. Close the thread

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-cb-college-football-season-chances-20200722-dqocpvtuk5elbnx4wlncvivpti-story.html

But here’s what one told me: “If we lose $50 million to $60 million, so be it. I’d rather have a financial crisis than a bunch of kids getting really sick.” And this: “This decision cannot be made by football coaches or ADs or the commissioner or even school presidents. It has to be the medical experts.”

Hate to break this to people, but some/many/most players are actual students who live in dorms or apartments and (should) go to class. They cannot be bubbled, especially not for four to five months. They are well-compensated when you take into account tuition, housing, books, food, clothing and a stipend, but they are non-salaried. They do not exist for our entertainment.

26 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

Yeah.  You're like a poet.  If a poet meant the opposite of its actual definition.

Thank you. That is very kind of you. But what antonym were you thinking of? 

29 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Good point. You do write, or more specifically type, a lot. Usually quite a bit more than seems necessary.

I will agree with that. Guilty as charged. 

8 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

You talk a lot.

 No. I write a lot. I do not talk that much unless I am in my job performing a specific task that requires it. Mostly, my job is one that requires writing and deep contemplated thought with explanations. 

7 minutes ago, Notre Dame Joe said:

They play football during the flu season and the flu causes more fatalities than we appreciated. Both viruses pose a risk to a player's life that is so low.  The underlying health conditions listed above, the ones that would put a youth into the vulnerable category, sound like conditions that would already exclude him from college football. Furthermore the schools know their medical history and can exclude any vulnerable players. 

 

Simply put, the fear that more players will die from covid if there is a football season is not supported by logic and evidence.  The chance of serious physical injury from the virus is negligible compared to the dangerous game of footba

Ok, then why did this happen today?

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29520125/michigan-state-pauses-workouts-staff-member-tests-positive-covid-19

If they know their athletes conditions, why even "pause" the workouts? Where is the logic in that? I mean, no one is going to die. Can you explain this to me? I mean, it is no different from the flu. 

But let's look at these conditions. 

·       Serious heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies.

·       Sickle cell disease.

·       Type 2 diabetes mellitus.

These conditions do NOT prevent you from playing athletics. A heart condition such as hypertrophic obstructive cardiomyopathy can happen and is the leading cause of cardiac events in athletes. Sickle cell disease does not prevent an athlete from performing. The National Athletic Trainers Association has guidelines for this. 

And where is your evidence that there is no long term effects of covid? Oh that's right. It is not available because we simply do not know. 

I think you should be the chosen as one of the commissioners of a conference to tell us this great information and tell us "nothing to worry about, play on as if nothing is going on; we will kickoff the season with full crowds and a full schedule." Man, those other conferences that cancelled their seasons are sure looking foolish right now. 

3 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Looks like lots of tangent thread material abounds.

Yes and no. Yes it is a tangent in that I am not too bad at when I get an ad hom floated in my direction and responding with a better ad hom remark or an ad hom that is cryptic that causes the reader to have to look up certain information to truly comprehend the opposing ad hom. 

As per no, there is the notion that it did play nicely into the use of the masks that will be required. If anyone watched Reece Davis' College Football Live that aired recently, you will notice that many student-athletes were wearing masks while working out. This, in my view, could be a factor that will limit exercise efficiency and oxygen delivery as oxygen is utilized for energy in the human body. I do wonder what the oxygen saturation levels will be for student-athletes having to work out with masks and wonder how this will affect overall performance. 

I know this type of thinking is considered incoherent by those whose sole existence is based on "foo-ball" and advanced reading of comic books and nothing much more. I am hopeful that when they did attend college that they application was not a coloring book and were considered an honors student if they stayed in the lines on greater than 50% of the task. I believe a fan board posting should go beyond 5 words such as "they played good..foo-ball...good" as if the Neanderthals are ruling the earth and we are drinking from the fountain of their infinite wisdom and bathing in the waters of their brilliance. 

33 minutes ago, 307husker said:

I'm fairly confident a diagnosis of CTE can be confirmed based upon your last two posts.

 

Either that, or you have a gas leak in your home and you should go outside and call for help.

The diagnosis of CTE is based on post-mortem (autopsy) examination. No one has tested by Tau protein levels. Thus, your joke at my expense has fallen painfully flat to those who know this type of information. Now, if you said head injury, I probably would have laughed with you. 

Everything runs on electric in my house. Thanks. Oh, I do keep my car outside so you do not have to worry about CO poisoning. Also, I have fairly good ventilation in my house thus you do not have to worry about excessive CO2 demands creating hypercapnia. Excess C02 can build up in one's blood and cause disorientation due to the lack of oxygen binding to the hemoglobin thus limiting O2 transport or what can be referred to as DO2 (oxygen delivery). But I believe you know that due your intimate knowledge of autoerotic asphyxiation. 

You can read up on hypercapnia here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK500012/

Here is short reading on hemoglobin. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK525974/

But I am glad you raised this important subject up as we are going to start slowly learning that continued mask wearing hypothetically could result in some people's increased amount to CO2. 

1 hour ago, 307husker said:

That's an unreasonable standard that nobody is suggesting.  No intelligent person would assert that there must be 0% risk of harm before an activity can be resumed.  That's just plain stupid.

 

Determining the degree of risk certain activities pose, and weighing that against possible gain is not unique to this pandemic.  This is just a different variable.

Look no further than the NCAA guidelines.

http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-institute/resocialization-collegiate-sport-developing-standards-practice-and-competition

The CDC defines high risk of COVID-19 transmission as any situation in which there has been greater than 15 minutes of close contact, defined as being less than 6 feet apart, with an infectious individual.^[3] Importantly, there is a risk of transmission from being present with infectious individuals who are symptomatic, pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic.

Asymptomatic spread of COVID-19 is of significant concern in the college sport environment because, like the broader student body, it is largely composed of younger adults (18-29 years of age). These individuals will often remain asymptomatic after being infected with SARS-CoV-2, but even though they have no symptoms, they are still capable of spreading this virus, which causes COVID-19. If they infect another younger adult, the risk of an adverse outcome is low, although the long-term consequences to cardiopulmonary health to themselves or other younger adults remain unknown. In contrast, contact with that same asymptomatic/minimally symptomatic individual presents a potentially lethal risk for high-risk category individuals who are far more likely to have an adverse outcome if infected with the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. Relatedly, pre-symptomatic spread is also a concern, as these individuals are infected with COVID-19 but have not yet developed symptoms or signs of this disease.

The CDC recently updated its guidance to emphasize that, among adults, the risk for severe illness from COVID-19 increases with age, with older adults at highest risk and 8 out of 10 COVID-19-related deaths reported in the United States to date occurring in adults age 65 and older. In addition, the CDC also has established that individuals of any age with the following underlying medical conditions are at increased risk: ^[4]

·       Chronic kidney disease.

·       COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease).

·       Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant.

·       Obesity (body mass index of 30 or greater).

·       Serious heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies.

·       Sickle cell disease.

·       Type 2 diabetes mellitus.

Finally, the CDC has advised that children who have complex medical situations, who have congenital heart disease or who have neurologic, genetic, metabolic conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19 than other children.

While data is still fairly limited, the CDC has said people with the following conditions might also be at an increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19:^[5]

·       Asthma (moderate to severe).

·       Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain).

·       Cystic fibrosis.

·       Hypertension or high blood pressure.

·       Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids or use of other immune weakening medicines.

·       Neurologic conditions, such as dementia.

·       Liver disease.

·       Pregnancy.

·       Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues).

·       Smoking.

·       Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder).

·       Type 1 diabetes mellitus.

Sport Classification Update

The categorization of sport risk was previously noted in the Action Plan document and is based on consensus from the NCAA COVID-19 Advisory Panel and the AMSSM COVID-19 Working Group and on the probability and significance of respiratory droplet spread during vigorous exercise when physical distancing and masking are not applied or are not possible. Importantly, the sport classification refers to sport-specific training and competition and not cross-training or other aspects of training. For example, swimming is a low contact risk sport, but dry land training activities such as trampoline, stretching, and tumbling may be associated with higher risk activity if risk-mitigating strategies noted above are not in place.

The risk assessment has now been updated below to include all NCAA-sponsored sports, including both winter and spring sports. Importantly, this risk assessment differs from the National Federation of State High School Associations and the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee and also may differ from state/local risk categorization guidance.

·       Low contact risk: bowling, diving, equestrian, fencing, golf, rifle, skiing, swimming, tennis, track and field.

·       Medium contact risk: acrobatics and tumbling, baseball, beach volleyball, cross country*, gymnastics, softball, triathlon*.

·       High contact risk: basketball, field hockey, football, ice hockey, lacrosse, rowing, rugby, soccer, squash, volleyball, water polo, wrestling.

* The level of risk in cross country, track and field and triathlon are dependent upon the student-athlete’s proximity to other unmasked individuals. For example, the start or finish of a race may involve a group of athletes who are breathing heavily in a group space with a breakdown in physical distancing.

11 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

I'll take these one at a time...

1.  Can't argue with what you believe

2.  Ummm...okay

3.  So we need to be less callous because there could be lawyers ready to get involved?

4.  I honestly have no idea where you went here.  I've reread it several times and I'm just gonna have to punt.

5.  I am not making an argument for or against closing universities, but I'm sure you see your circular logic here:  This is the way it is because other people are acting like this is the way it is because it is the way it is.

6. Once again, I have no idea what you're getting at here.

 

I think where we agree is that COVID is contagious.

Glad you did, helps to organize my thoughts. I am a list-type of guy (except grocery lists, I don't do that because I like to drive my wife insane). 

1. thank you

2. thank you

3. The lawyers will be callous and will make their case using callousness; they will set up questions that will be accusatory such as:

a. "Did you or did you not, want to make money at the expense of my client's health."

b. "Did you or did you not ignore the available evidence on the number of deaths and the potential disability?"

c, "did you or did you not totally ignore my client's request to not play this season because he had family members who were more prone to catch this dreaded disease." 

d. I have in my hand, your honor, a document that will be marked as Exhibit #43 that indicates an internal memo that you signed that signified that "loss of playing the games would equal around $50 million dollars." Is this your signature on this internal email? Would it be safe to say that the push to play college football, at the expense of my client, was more important that his health?"

e. You stated, for the record, that money was not your intent to play the season. However, you noted on this document, that will be marked at Exhibit 54, that stated, in no uncertain terms, that "the student-athlete's health was paramount?" Then, how do you account for putting my client's overall well-being and long-term health in jeopardy by playing a season?

f. Did you take into consideration the possible long-term consequences of my client's health during the pandemic? 

4. It was easy. The car accident and covid does not follow together logically. In fact, linking the acceptance of car accidents only fuels speculation that one cares more for football than people because we have accepted traffic accidents as a society.

5. Not really circular; it is pointing that out that other universities are not playing yet others are. 

6. It's simple. We accept that in the game of football, injuries occur such as concussion and ACL tears; this is a part of the game that we accept as "the risk element." However, no one signed up for playing while a contagious disease is roaming around that no one knows the long-term consequences of and that has essentially shut down a large part of the USA economy. A knee injury has not shut down an economy. When did football become a more essential aspect than that of a someone getting a haircut? 

8 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

I don't see anyone trivializing human life.  I do see some debate on what's being reported, and how to interpret data...which there is plenty to criticize, IMO.  

Wondering aloud how we can responsibly move forward is not callous.  People suffer everyday, and we're all affected by it at some point in our lives.  Yet we all come on here to occasionally complain about something as inconsequential as a game played by kids, and that's more than okay. 

 

I think most of us are wearing our masks and doing our best to protect each other.  However, trying to find a balance between risk and reward, life and livelihood...is an ok thing to discuss (or at least should be).  You could have taken the same tone and written the same post with respect to how we drive on the highway.  "Oh as long as we get to drive at lethal speeds to get to our precious football game.  Does no one care that tens of thousands of lives are lost on the road every year?!".  

 

Doesn't take much sophistication to go that route in pretty much any discussion.  Have at it, if you think it adds insight, I guess.

1. I believe that several here are trivializing human health and safety but they are just bordering on it without taking that next crucial step but they are definitely hovering on the edge; they are paying lip service to the notion of "student-athlete health is paramount."

2. As per callous, there is a fine line between being reckless and having a justification based on emotion. Callousness is just a step away. 

3. As per risk and reward, in this pandemic situation, when we know so little about it, we are attempting to get our reward (football being played) and the risk (player's health and safety). In this situation, as it stands, I would go with the situation that provides the scenario of "no risk" than to have a "little risk" because believe you me, there is a lawyer already planning on his next court case because of this. I can find a medical expert to serve as an expert witness to say what I want to say. That's no trick. 

4. Had I do a fictitious account of, let's say, a car accident, it would not have the same impact. No one dies in a car accident from Covid. Oh yeah, someone got totally oiled up on alcohol and hit the road driving and killed a family. And it was later found out that the drunk driver had covid. Covid did not create the car accident. Like Covid is linked to traffic accidents? Come on. Thus, the analogy would have been lost. I chose a situation that is probably more than likely real to get the point across. Yes, all those fans driving recklessly, speeding up and going 75 mph in a 40 mph zone to get to the game all had covid that caused them to do that behavior. Sure, makes sense.....if your in an alternate universe. 

5. If covid is an acceptable risk, why did all those schools cancel their seasons? Why did the Ivy League pull the plug? Why did a bunch of universities call off their voluntary workouts? Why aren't fans allowed to watch games in the stands? I mean, its an "acceptable risk" right? Then why wear a mask if there is an "acceptable risk"? I mean, we accept drunk drivers all the time. Why not just put out a few PSA's and tell people "do not get behind the wheel of your car if you have Covid"? Or we can have fans sign legal waivers that "in the event that you contract covid, you will not sue the university"? That would be easy, right?

6. But let's break this down.

a. a head injury is NOT contagious nor are you hospitalized and put on a ventilator unless the injury is so severe that it cuts off the respiratory system;

b. CTE is NOT contagious and does not require a ventilator;

c. drunk driving is NOT contagious and is not treated with a ventilator;

d. a torn ACL is NOT contagious and a ventilator is not needed; 

BUT Covid IS contagious. This is the big difference.