Jim Hammer

 

 

If I combined half the hate I have gotten on this thread and said it out loud, I would be rightfully banned. Calling someone "not worth talking to on this matter" or "ignorant" is not a way to sway them to your side. It is a way to get them pissed off and hate your side even more. Everybody has opinions that not everybody will agree with, but can't we at least be a bit respectful while still disagreeing?

You aren't going to be swayed. You've said so earlier in this thread. The fact that you ignore evidence that refutes points you try to make proves that you are ignorant to what the protests are about and have no desire to learn.

 

And like Nebfanatic said, ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge. There are many topics I am ignorant about. But I don't go on message boards to try and have a discussion about those topics.

 

I made my first comment on page 3 because I hate anthem protests. I wasn't intending to get this into it. Simple as that.

 

Nobody is forcing you to post in this thread.

But when you do, you are taking part in a discussion. If you refuse to see the other side and refuse to learn about why they are protesting, you are going to get backlash.

If I combined half the hate I have gotten on this thread and said it out loud, I would be rightfully banned. Calling someone "not worth talking to on this matter" or "ignorant" is not a way to sway them to your side. It is a way to get them pissed off and hate your side even more. Everybody has opinions that not everybody will agree with, but can't we at least be a bit respectful while still disagreeing?

You aren't going to be swayed. You've said so earlier in this thread. The fact that you ignore evidence that refutes points you try to make proves that you are ignorant to what the protests are about and have no desire to learn.

And like Nebfanatic said, ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge. There are many topics I am ignorant about. But I don't go on message boards to try and have a discussion about those topics.

We will never agree.

 

Big surprise.

No. It is not needed. I still hold firm to that. If the police community needs reform, so does the African American community. This thread is about the protests that were said to have been spawned by police brutality. Not over the time that they were oppressed >=50 years ago.

 

 

It's hard to have a discussion with ignorant people who refuse to learn and ignore piles of evidence presented to them. We can only hope that they are the minority and the rest of us can move forward.

thing is if dozens of other countries can keep civilian deaths by police at relatively low numbers, so can we. I'm sorry but there should be no justification for police killing 1000 people in a year, when other countries are sitting at 2 or 3. That is a significant gap and it needs to be reduced. Put people in jail, let them go through the justice system as it is designed. Sure I haven't been in these situations, but tens of thousands of other officers around the world go through alot of these scenarios and find ways to come out of them with everyone alive. This is not too much to ask for plain and simple.

 

The reason for this huge disparity is the gun culture we have in the US. Cops facing criminals armed with guns don't have the luxury those in other countries that don't have nearly as many guns.

But those other countries do a much better job of training their officers and have instituted policies that reduce the lethality of criminal interactions:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/what-norway-is-getting-right-about-policing-that-american-cops-just-cant-figure-out/208413/

That is something we should emulate.

The reason I brought up guns is that it makes the cops job a lot harder to not kill someone if their own life is being threatened. If a criminal points a gun at a cop, the cop should shoot them. And not to wound, to kill. If someone pulls a knife, you have many more means to incapacitate them non-lethally.

But we have a lot of killings where the cop's life isn't in danger, and that's why we have these protests. When a black person dies in this matter, it makes the news. White people die too, but it doesn't bend the needle as far as the media goes. Going by the numbers, the instances of blacks being killed isn't that much greater than those of white people. But studies have shown that over all, blacks to get worse treatment from the police than white people.

So whether or not you agree with the way MRI and others protest, you have to admit there's a problem with law enforcement in this country.

 

 

There isn't any law enforcement reforming to do! Of all of the high profile cop shootings, maybe one or two have been racist at most, and the rest were more than likely with reason and the guy he shot happened to be black. And for many of the ones that are presumed to be racist, people love to assume the cop is automatically the bad guy, without listening to both sides.

 

 

 

I think you missed this article: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/17/us/police-chiefs-group-minorities-apology/

 

 

"There have been times when law enforcement officers because of the laws enacted by federal, state and local governments have been the face of oppression to far too many of our fellow citizens.

In the past, the laws adopted by our society have required police officers to perform many unpalatable tasks, such as ensuring legalized discrimination or even denying the basic rights of citizenship to many of our fellow Americans," Cunningham said.

 

When you're pressured by a growing majority, it's hard not to force an apology out of yourself.

Or maybe he realized what was going on and felt the need to apologize. Not everyone finds it hard to admit when they are wrong.

 

Hard to have people listening to you when those same people are pissed off at you for only mildly valid reasons.

 

Mildly valid? Way to minimize all those dead people who were unjustly killed by the police.

The UK has had 55 police shootings resulting in death in the last 24 years. In the United States police shot and killed 59 people in the first 24 days of 2015. Argument over if other countries can do this so can we. We don't need to kill people to police them, period.

One of the reasons we have so many police shootings is the police have to deal with so many armed criminals.

But that's a gun control issue and I'm not going to derail this conversation by talking about the gun problem.

 

 

 

 

 

The players who will not stand for the anthem should be benched. I don't agree with their methods. While they are in uniform and in the stadium, they represent the University, the State and fans. There should be no personal politics on the field.

 

The anthem honors the millions of Americans, past and present, including those soldiers who fought to stop slavery in the Civil War, stop dictators in other wars, Martin Luther King, and other good people. The kneeling is an insult to those people and does not accomplish much else other than discord- as is evidenced by the responses to this thread.

 

I don't buy into the helping hand to rebuild the inner cities. This nation has spent trillions over the past 50 years and we still have the same percentage of poor, the same run down inner cities and race relations are probably as bad as they have been since the 1960s. Those problems won't be solved on the football field by kneeling and insulting millions.

 

If these players think they have ideas, then call a press conference on their time in their civilian clothes and make specific proposals to the their representatives like adult citizens are supposed to do.

I +1'ed your post because I am sure that you will get a lot of hate for posting this. I 95% agree with what you are saying (The only thing I didn't agree with I struck out). Like I said in an earlier post, sure this is raising attention to the matter. Doesn't mean it's positive attention. Everything legislatively has been done, that's what MLK did. Changing society is impossible to force.

law enforcement reform isn't impossible to force

There isn't any law enforcement reforming to do! Of all of the high profile cop shootings, maybe one or two have been racist at most, and the rest were more than likely with reason and the guy he shot happened to be black. And for many of the ones that are presumed to be racist, people love to assume the cop is automatically the bad guy, without listening to both sides.

Well considering there have been 2000+ people killed by police in the last 2 years I would disagree with you.

 

You are acting like all cops are complete monsters. Their job is to take care of the monsters, not be the monsters. Most do a good job of fulfilling that. >99% of killings are warranted. Believe it or not, if a danger is posed to the cop, they are supposed to shoot the person that is threatening them!

 

Nobody is saying all cops are bad. We know the majority do a great job. But those who don't need to be held accountable. And use of deadly force is only warranted if the officer feels his life is in danger, not just if they feel threatened.

The players who will not stand for the anthem should be benched. I don't agree with their methods. While they are in uniform and in the stadium, they represent the University, the State and fans. There should be no personal politics on the field.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

The anthem honors the millions of Americans, past and present, including those soldiers who fought to stop slavery in the Civil War, stop dictators in other wars, Martin Luther King, and other good people. The kneeling is an insult to those people and does not accomplish much else other than discord- as is evidenced by the responses to this thread.

The anthem is for all Americans, not just veterans. Don't presume to speak on behalf of other people as to what the anthem represents. I think the majority of veterans (like myself) are fine with the protests. They are done with respect but they get the point across. If they sat down instead (and Kapernick has changed his stance here) or turned their back to the flag, that would be showing disrespect.

I don't buy into the helping hand to rebuild the inner cities.

Why would you? It doesn't affect you.

This nation has spent trillions over the past 50 years and we still have the same percentage of poor, the same run down inner cities and race relations are probably as bad as they have been since the 1960s.

Race relations are better, but the playing field stil isn't level.

Those problems won't be solved on the football field by kneeling and insulting millions.

No they won't, but by bringing attention to the issue, some good can come from it.

 

As for those insulted... they are the ones who don't think there is a problem and aren't affected. They need to be made aware of the problems in this country. This country isn't just for white, middle class people. We should strive to create opportunity for everyone, not just those born into good circumstances.

 

If these players think they have ideas, then call a press conference on their time in their civilian clothes and make specific proposals to the their representatives like adult citizens are supposed to do.

By taking a knee, these players have done far more than every poster in this thread combined to make this country a better place and they should be applauded and not ridiculed.

This protest isn't going to do anything for those who won't admit to there being a problem in this country. Their lives are fine, how can it be different for others? Instead of being upset with the protest, try to learn about why it's taking place and what minorities deal with on a daily basis.

There isn't any law enforcement reforming to do! Of all of the high profile cop shootings, maybe one or two have been racist at most, and the rest were more than likely with reason and the guy he shot happened to be black. And for many of the ones that are presumed to be racist, people love to assume the cop is automatically the bad guy, without listening to both sides.

 

 

 

I think you missed this article: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/17/us/police-chiefs-group-minorities-apology/

 

"There have been times when law enforcement officers because of the laws enacted by federal, state and local governments have been the face of oppression to far too many of our fellow citizens.

In the past, the laws adopted by our society have required police officers to perform many unpalatable tasks, such as ensuring legalized discrimination or even denying the basic rights of citizenship to many of our fellow Americans," Cunningham said.

 

What a tremendous overreaction to players taking a knee

 

...and the coaches' reaction to players NOT taking a knee, which is even sadder.

 

Right.

People have the right to chose if they want to stand or kneel. Glad you finally agree.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/17/us/police-chiefs-group-minorities-apology/

Probably doesn't happen without the protests.

 

I'm not saying that, in fact I don't think the problem with America is even racial.

There are lots of problems with America. But to claim racism isn't one of them is just ignorant.

I think the real problem is a disintegration of the family unit, and an over-abundance of self-interest in society, but that is another matter.

And why is that a problem? Money. Poor people have to work several jobs to make ends meet. To be middle class, both parents are working. Everyone is struggling to make ends meet and families suffer.

My point is that the goal of the "movement" that MRI and others take part in, or their proposed solution, is a monetary one, that awards blacks for no other reason than their skin color.

Uh, no. One group mentioned reparations (not BLM), but for the most part, these demonstrations are about getting better treatment for minorities.

It also seeks power by discrediting the moral authority of white people,

WTF?

and demanding affirmative action measures.

You're going to have to cite this one.

All measures ignore past reparations, and their consequences. I do appreciate the social capital the movement has generated, the unity of a culture for a cause, but I regret that the cause is so...left-wing.

Left-wing? Conservatives are pushing sofar to the right, that even moderate positions seem left-wing to them. Go back and look at some of Reagan's and Bush Sr.'s speeches. If you showed a transcript to Breitbart or Fox News, they'd lose their minds.

The methodology used in these anthem protests is white guilt. If they can subconsciously convince enough whites that they have a direct role in the suffering of black person X, they gain the political power to enact the solutions they want. And regrettably I think it is working. It is true, they have a right to protest, but the message is very strategic and manipulative and false.

Whites should feel guilty. Maybe not because of their actions, but because if their inactions. White America has a much different experience than the America experienced by minorities. Threre's no incentive to fix things because everything s hunky-dory as far as whites are concerned. We need to give up some of the things we take for granted to help the less fortunate come up to our level.

Don't get me wrong, MRI is probably a great guy but I think his effort is misguided.

Of course you do. You don't think there even is a problem. He's brought a great deal of attention to the issue and made a lot of people aware. The problem is those who refuse to even examine the issue because of they don't like his form of protest. You cry and moan that he's being divisive, when there's already a huge divide. Maybe use some of your "white moral authority" and take the step of trying to learn about his side of this issue and not just dismiss it out of hand like the right-wing media tells you to.

The biggest problem in this country is the income gap between the very rich and the very poor. We need to invest in the inner cities to bring jobs and opportunity to poor people. And those poor people are disproportionately black. It's not a handout, it's a helping hand.

 

Yeah, sorry, you're wrong.

 

Former presidential candidate was shouted down and booed off of HIS OWN stage for saying "All lives matter."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/martin-omalley-all-lives-matter/

 

Black Lives Matter Co-Founder: ‘All Lives Matter’ a Racial Slur, ‘White Folks Gotta Give Up Something’

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/23/black-lives-matter-co-founder-all-lives-matter-a-racial-slur/

 

Every Time You Say “All Lives Matter” You Are Being an Accidental Racist

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-damiani/every-time-you-say-all-li_1_b_11004780.html

 

Obama Explains The Problem With ‘All Lives Matter’

"...“I think the reason that the organizers used the phrase “black lives matter” was not because they were suggesting nobody else’s lives matter,” he said. “What they were suggesting was, there is a specific problem that is happening in the African-American community that’s not happening in other communities. And that is a legitimate issue that we’ve got to address.” --Barack Obama

 

https://thinkprogress.org/obama-explains-the-problem-with-all-lives-matter-780912d54888#.dtnb7120l

 

So landlord, if you disagree with me, take it up with the founder of Black Lives Matter and your president. Oh, and the Black Lives Matter crowd to which your link pointed is mostly white, so that might be damning to the point you are trying to make.

 

As for the second link, I think All Lives Matter and I said something when it happened, so that article is disingenuous and discredited. I have been pointing out the disturbing trends in police shootings before Rose-Ivey was born, back in the time of Waco and Ruby Ridge, but I do want to thank him for his kneeling to make me aware that I wasn't really aware.

 

 

Basic logic. It’s reasonable to expect that if you’d had to witness the gross injustices committed against those in non-white communities, you would understand why “All Lives Matter” is so harmful. You would understand that it is in fact you who is missing the point.

Try reading and comprehending your links. Saying "All lives matter" is dismissing minorities that don't enjoy many of the same privileges as white people.

To the bolded part, it all boils down to what the socioeconomic status is. If we're talking about whether I'd rather be poor and white or whether I'd rather be poor and black, I don't see a lot of difference but to play along I'd probably favor being white. If I'm a college student getting ready to apply for grad. school, I'll take being the black student over the white student. I'd also rather be black when applying for a job especially a gov't job where I had the same credentials regardless of race.

 

And that's the problem. White people don't know what it's like to be black and the day-to-day hardships they face. There may be some instances where being black is an advantage, but they are very few and very far between.

Read this and get back to me: http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf

 

I get really worked up over this subject (see my post following the one you quoted). So when I see people who are unwilling to listen to the players because of the form of their protest, it demonstrates to me that they really don't care. We have a large percentage of our population that live in a different America from you and me. I am making an effort to understand it, are you?

 

 

 

 

 

I have yet to hear someone answer my question if they would like to be treated the same as black people in this country. You notice no one has replied to post number 906. There's more discussion in this thread about the posters feelings than what he actual protest is about. So I really am not worried about stepping on some toes. I'm trying to push this topic forward and make this country a better place.

 

 

The bolded part is where things get blurred a bit. There are black people in this country that I would very much like to be treated like. I'm sure there are white people that most blacks would like to be treated like. However, there are also black people in this country that I wouldn't like to be treated like just like there are white people in this country that most black people would not like to be treated like. There are pockets of this great nation where a lot of the factory jobs have disappeared placing many white people on welfare. In these areas, crime is now running out of control and drugs are rampant. While it doesn't get the media coverage, a lot of the whites in these areas face similar circumstances.

 

 

 

Of course you'd want the same treatment as a black pro athlete, actor or musician. And no one wants to be treated like poor white trash. But if you take a black person and a white person of the same socioeconomic status, which one would you want to be?

 

So, my message will be disregarded if they person doesn't like my "tone"? What does that sound like? Like someone won't pay attention to the protest if they don't like the form it takes? If you don't like my tone, don't jump in making snarky comments without reading through the thread first. If you act disingenuous, be prepared for the repercussions.

 

I've tried putting some thought into this topic and have been respectful to those who seem like they actually want to learn about the issues behind the protest even though they didn't like MRI and others taking a knee.

Personal attacks are no way to disagree with someone's opinion. My comments I made earlier in the thread were in no way snarky, and you went off on me in a way that I did not go off on anyone else.

 

I get really worked up over this subject (see my post following the one you quoted). So when I see people who are unwilling to listen to the players because of the form of their protest, it demonstrates to me that they really don't care. We have a large percentage of our population that live in a different America from you and me. I am making an effort to understand it, are you?

I have yet to hear someone answer my question if they would like to be treated the same as black people in this country. You notice no one has replied to post number 906. There's more discussion in this thread about the posters feelings than what he actual protest is about. So I really am not worried about stepping on some toes. I'm trying to push this topic forward and make this country a better place.

This isn't a topic in which we can remain pleasant in discussing. People need to be taken out of their comfort zone. I was raised in an all white community and went to an all white school. I've never experienced what minorities experienced growing up in this country. I was raised to respect everyone and treat them how I would want to be treated.

I started to become aware of these problems during diversity training for my new career as a teacher in an inner city high school. We took a bus around the neighborhoods that these kids are growing up in and it physically hurt me to learn what these kids go through. The cycle of poverty is a vicious thing. One of my students lost his father last week to cancer at 38. I wonder if he had better access to health care if he's still be alive. I learned about white privilege. It's easy to just live our own lives when we have no idea what those less fortunate are going through.

Well, what can we do? I don't know for sure, but we can start by electing people who will look out for the interests of all people, not just the wealthy ones who donate to their campaigns.

So, my message will be disregarded if they person doesn't like my "tone"? What does that sound like? Like someone won't pay attention to the protest if they don't like the form it takes? If you don't like my tone, don't jump in making snarky comments without reading through the thread first. If you act disingenuous, be prepared for the repercussions.

I've tried putting some thought into this topic and have been respectful to those who seem like they actually want to learn about the issues behind the protest even though they didn't like MRI and others taking a knee.

 

 

Gotta admit I'm wary of people attempting the "help me understand" approach when they don't seem to mean it.

 

Despite or because of your super politeness, Joe, I'm getting that vibe from you.

 

Please don't pretend people misinterpreted Post #868 & #870. You're laying out some very pass-aggressive sh#t.

Lots of people pretend they want to know the issues, but won't put in the effort to actually find out. Or know and don't care so they deflect with "I don't like how they protest, so I'm going to ignore it."

 

 

Ok... there were multiple questions within my post. Well then let's remove sarcasm from my post (for your sake). Now please explain the "pretty fine" portion of your post and how it relates to mine. Thanks

 

 

First, the end game is progress and awareness. Even if MRI never kneels again he will have accomplished this in his own small context, and will not be a hypocrite for stopping.

 

 

Second, the University would care and give time and due diligence in listening to anyone with real perceived slights or injustices.

Ok. That is totally fine. Thank you for fully answering some questions.

 

1)So this is a protest to raise awareness. No problem. Will he tell us when we are all aware?

 

2) can I get a list of these "real" injustices? I just want to make sure my injustices are as "real" as the next persons. Does the university have this in writing. I just want to make sure that if they tell me NO, I can say but Landlord said you would listen...

1. When you pull your head out of your ass, you will become aware. Then hopefully, we can all make some progress.

 

2. Do your own homework. Google "white privilege". Read the report from Ferguson that lays out the racist policies carried out by the police. https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

 

Fergusons law enforcement practices are shaped by the Citys focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. This emphasis on revenue has compromised the institutional character of Fergusons police department, contributing to a pattern of unconstitutional policing, and has also shaped its municipal court leading to proceedures that raise due process concerns and inflict unnecessary harm on members of the Ferguson community. Further, Fergusons police and municipal court practices both reflect and exacerbate existing racial bias, including racial stereotypes. Fergusons own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans. The evidence shows that discriminatory intent is part of the reason for the disparities. Over time, Fergusons police and municipal court practices have sown deep mistrust between parts of the community and the police department, undermining law enforcement legitimacy among African Americans in particular.

Odd. I thought I stuck pretty much to what I thought could have made the protest better, I did not want it go to personal attacks. Are we through with civil talking? If so, I would like to stay on the board but will not respond to personal attacks, I do not think that helps.

 

The protests pretty much accomplished what they were supposed to accomplish.

If you didn't want to be attacked personally, you shouldn't have posted crap like "these 'real' injustices" and "Will he tell us when we're all aware?" Statements like that show you have no interest in the actual issues and you're just feigning outrage at the protester's methods to deflect.

And I couldn't care less if you stay on the board or not. If you actually want to discuss issues in an intelligent and mature manner, great. Quit with the passive aggressive BS and join the adults.

Gotta admit I'm wary of people attempting the "help me understand" approach when they don't seem to mean it.

 

Despite or because of your super politeness, Joe, I'm getting that vibe from you.

 

Please don't pretend people misinterpreted Post #868 & #870. You're laying out some very pass-aggressive sh#t.

Lots of people pretend they want to know the issues, but won't put in the effort to actually find out. Or know and don't care so they deflect with "I don't like how they protest, so I'm going to ignore it."

 

 

Ok... there were multiple questions within my post. Well then let's remove sarcasm from my post (for your sake). Now please explain the "pretty fine" portion of your post and how it relates to mine. Thanks

 

 

First, the end game is progress and awareness. Even if MRI never kneels again he will have accomplished this in his own small context, and will not be a hypocrite for stopping.

 

 

Second, the University would care and give time and due diligence in listening to anyone with real perceived slights or injustices.

Ok. That is totally fine. Thank you for fully answering some questions.

 

1)So this is a protest to raise awareness. No problem. Will he tell us when we are all aware?

 

2) can I get a list of these "real" injustices? I just want to make sure my injustices are as "real" as the next persons. Does the university have this in writing. I just want to make sure that if they tell me NO, I can say but Landlord said you would listen...

 

1. When you pull your head out of your ass, you will become aware. Then hopefully, we can all make some progress.

2. Do your own homework. Google "white privilege". Read the report from Ferguson that lays out the racist policies carried out by the police. https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

 

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices are shaped by the City’s focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. This emphasis on revenue has compromised the institutional character of Ferguson’s police department, contributing to a pattern of unconstitutional policing, and has also shaped its municipal court leading to proceedures that raise due process concerns and inflict unnecessary harm on members of the Ferguson community. Further, Ferguson’s police and municipal court practices both reflect and exacerbate existing racial bias, including racial stereotypes. Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans. The evidence shows that discriminatory intent is part of the reason for the disparities. Over time, Ferguson’s police and municipal court practices have sown deep mistrust between parts of the community and the police department, undermining law enforcement legitimacy among African Americans in particular.