Carriker Chronicles - Osborne vs. Saban - Who's the Best?

[TGHusker]

In the 11 seasons before TO, Daveney won 101 games while only losing 20.  Michigan State had four consecutive losing seasons before Saban.  By year five, Michigan State had their best record in over three decades and their highest ranking in over three decades.  In the two years before Saban, LSU had won 6 games while losing 15 games.  The year before Saban, LSU lost every single conference game they played.  By year four, LSU won a NC.  When Saban took over at Alabama, he took over a program that had been hammered with sanctions.  By year three, he won his first of five NCs in his 11 seasons at Alabama. 

How a coach finishes his career is important.  However, is it any more important than how he started or what he started with?  Saban started at both Michigan State and Alabama when they were both enduring NCAA sanctions.  Devaney followed a coach who went 15-34-1 in five seasons.  In my opinion, TO isn't even the greatest Nebraska football coach.  This honor belongs to Devaney.  Devaney won his first conference title in year two just two years after Jennings had us going 3-6-1. 

So the question remains - why did Bob retire when he did from HC? 

 

[Landlord]

Titles do matter, but do they matter more than going 25 years averaging over 10 wins and under 2 losses?  Do they outweigh losing no more than. 3 games in a year over that span?  

Keep in mind that Saban inherited an LSU team that had 3 wins and 4 years in the two years prior to him arriving, and a Bama team that won 6, 10, and 6 games in the three years prior to him arriving.

In 16 seasons at blue bloods (comparing his time at MSU to Osborne inheriting a championship blue-blood program is not at all fair), he's averaged 10.9 wins per year, 1 conference championship per every 2.2 years (compared to Osborne's 1 per every 2.08 years, with the benefit of shared championships), 1 national championship every 2.667 years (compared to Tom's 1 per every 8.33 years), and has only lost more than 3 games three times (his first rebuilding years at both programs, and in his third year at LSU).

If the argument is based on metrics, I'm sorry, it's not an argument. Saban wins.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

So the question remains - why did Bob retire when he did from HC? 

You could ask John Madden the same. Some coaches can't stop coaching and will coach until they die (Bear Bryant & Paterno)

But a lot of coaches will tell you the job takes a massive toll, and when you feel you've hit the pinnacle (like Madden & Devaney) it's a huge relief to step away, especially if you can keep your hand in the game in a less stressful position, like broadcaster or AD.

And in hindsight, Tom Osborne seemed to retire relatively young, though it didn't appear that way at the time, when I was also a lot younger.

 

[TGHusker]

You could ask John Madden the same. Some coaches can't stop coaching and will coach until they die (Bear Bryant & Paterno)

But a lot of coaches will tell you the job takes a massive toll, and when you feel you've hit the pinnacle (like Madden & Devaney) it's a huge relief to step away, especially if you can keep your hand in the game in a less stressful position, like broadcaster or AD.

And in hindsight, Tom Osborne seemed to retire relatively young, though it didn't appear that way at the time, when I was also a lot younger.

Yes, us fans can get 'greedy' with their lives and forget that they have lives to live beyond the game.  We think of all of the extra championships they could have, would have, should have won if they only coached a few more years.  In the meantime, the time is slipping away for their family, etc. 

And it is better to leave on top as Bob, Tom and Madden did.  I have a KSU friend here at work - while he so admires Bill Snyder he sooooo much wants him to retire now or yesterday.  But he believes Snyder will work until he dies - he did the retirement thing once and now he is back. Unfortunately, in time Bill may be forced out and not be able to leave the way he wants to.  Like Paterno, he runs the risk of loosing the program as players want to play for coaches they know will be around for a while. 

 

[junior4949]

Lots of GREAT points there,  but it's worth noting that even devaney credited Osborne for the 1969 turnaround and said he was pretty much running the show for the 2 national title squads.   Technically no, he wasn't the head coach but if you look at devaneys comments at face value then Tom was actually responsible for turning the program around and being instrumental in changing the way strength and conditioning was viewed by the entire football community.  

Great coaches can see when things need to be changed or mixed up.  The reason for the losses in the 67' and 68' seasons was lack of offense.  In all of those losses in those two seasons, we were shutout not even scoring a single point in three of the eight losses.  The most we scored in those eight losses was 16 points.  Devaney could see we needed something different.  TO overhauled the offense.  This really isn't a lot different than what Saban did in the NC game benching Hurts for the true freshman.  Great coaches make these changes.

The question I have is whether you'd want Frost to mirror TO's career or Devaney's career?  Keep in mind, Frost is eight years older than TO was when he took over and only four years younger than Devaney when he took over.  Would you rather have Frost win two NCs in eleven years here and then retire?  Or, would you rather Frost be in his mid-60's before winning his first NC?  We've just spent the last three years playing Bill Jennings type football. 

 

[Crazyhole]

Great coaches can see when things need to be changed or mixed up.  The reason for the losses in the 67' and 68' seasons was lack of offense.  In all of those losses in those two seasons, we were shutout not even scoring a single point in three of the eight losses.  The most we scored in those eight losses was 16 points.  Devaney could see we needed something different.  TO overhauled the offense.  This really isn't a lot different than what Saban did in the NC game benching Hurts for the true freshman.  Great coaches make these changes.

The question I have is whether you'd want Frost to mirror TO's career or Devaney's career?  Keep in mind, Frost is eight years older than TO was when he took over and only four years younger than Devaney when he took over.  Would you rather have Frost win two NCs in eleven years here and then retire?  Or, would you rather Frost be in his mid-60's before winning his first NC?  We've just spent the last three years playing Bill Jennings type football. 

After serious deliberation, I have decided that I want both.    

 

[1994 Husker]

..”best” is way to broad...the terms must defined to make good reply...however I suppose I tilt to Osborne...and that’s trying my dead level best to drop every bias and predisposed opinion...I say Osborne because of the peculiar effect he had on the team...every player I heard do interviews would be talking about Osborne in first 3 minuets..he had a permanent affect on players...I don’t hear players from 1-20 years ago that played on saben teams talk about his impact on their entire life than Osborne’s players...it is Osborne, it always Osborne that all the men in program flocked to..Osborne is a Christian man, a man of biblical values..that’s not lost on people..they gravitated to him..and trusted him...”trust” is understatement...Saben runs a business it seems..and Osborne ran a family that happened to play football ...Osborne knew full well the power of servitude leadership style..and it wasn’t a gimmick..that’s his nature and it always is the most effective in building relationships in organization..

 

[NU5XChamps]

I am not sure this is even a valid argument right now.  Saben hasn't finished coaching yet.  We have no idea with "Skeleton's " will come out of the closet once he does retire.  I think Saben is an incredible coach, he always has his team ready to go in the big games.  Not sure how you could fail in today's climate if you are the coach at Alabama.  I think we need to hold off comparing the two until Saben hangs it up. Then we can speak apples to apples.

 

[Nebfanatic]

I am not sure this is even a valid argument right now.  Saben hasn't finished coaching yet.  We have no idea with "Skeleton's " will come out of the closet once he does retire.  I think Saben is an incredible coach, he always has his team ready to go in the big games.  Not sure how you could fail in today's climate if you are the coach at Alabama.  I think we need to hold off comparing the two until Saben hangs it up. Then we can speak apples to apples.

Who do you think is responsible for this climate you speak of? Saban has gone 127-20 in 11 years at Alabama with 5 NCs. The 11 years before he took over Alabama was 85-64, 0 NCs. 

 

[hskrpwr13]

The bias I'll  always have against Saban, despite his greatness, is that he left Michigan St, in large part, because he didn't believe he could recruit well enough there to win at a high level. Osborne didn't/wouldn't have done that.

 

[jaws]

The bias I'll  always have against Saban, despite his greatness, is that he left Michigan St, in large part, because he didn't believe he could recruit well enough there to win at a high level. Osborne didn't/wouldn't have done that.

Osborne wouldn't have left Michigan State?

 

[Gage County]

Bob Devaney left Michigan State.

 

[junior4949]

The bias I'll  always have against Saban, despite his greatness, is that he left Michigan St, in large part, because he didn't believe he could recruit well enough there to win at a high level. Osborne didn't/wouldn't have done that.

This makes absolutely zero sense.  TO inherited a team that won two NCs in the three years before he became the head man.  Why on earth would he leave NU when it was one of the very few elite programs out there at the time?  When TO became the head man, there really wasn't a better opportunity out there. 

 

[Landlord]

This makes absolutely zero sense.  TO inherited a team that won two NCs in the three years before he became the head man.  Why on earth would he leave NU when it was one of the very few elite programs out there at the time?  When TO became the head man, there really wasn't a better opportunity out there. 

And he still nearly left Nebraska.

 

[junior4949]

And he still nearly left Nebraska.

Only because he was getting pressure, and it wasn't right away.  He'd already coached for six seasons which coincidentally was exactly the same amount of seasons Solich was allowed before being fired.  If we're all being honest here, TO was lucky Devaney was his AD.  If he would have had Stevie P or Eichorst as an AD, he would have been let go in the late 70's.  This is why I'm not getting all the fuss with regards to TO and Saban.  Devaney was the linchpin with regards to Husker football post WWII.  He's the one who provided the upper echelon foundation where TO started.  He's the one with the vision promoting TO to OC.  He was the one who didn't buckle to the boosters and fans in the late 70's.  Devaney is the one who built the Ferrari.  He not only handed TO the keys, but he's the primary reason he got to keep driving the Ferrari.  In my mind Devaney is not only the best Nebraska football coach in history, he is also the reason we enjoyed the success we did for as many decades as we did.  It wasn't just his coaching while he was the coach.  It was also his vision for the future that kept us near the top.