Carriker Chronicles - Osborne vs. Saban - Who's the Best?

[hskrpwr13]

The bias I'll  always have against Saban, despite his greatness, is that he left Michigan St, in large part, because he didn't believe he could recruit well enough there to win at a high level. Osborne didn't/wouldn't have done that.

Osborne wouldn't have left Michigan State?

Not for reasons that Saban stated.

This makes absolutely zero sense.  TO inherited a team that won two NCs in the three years before he became the head man.  Why on earth would he leave NU when it was one of the very few elite programs out there at the time?  When TO became the head man, there really wasn't a better opportunity out there. 

Just because TO inherited a that won to NCs doesn't mean both NU and MSU aren't disadvantaged in relation to NU. For NU, its about recruiting base. For MSU it is/was more about finances and support. My statement wasn't an invitation to argue the merits of mid 70's NU versus those of '07 Bama. If anyone could just win at NU, Solich would still be coaching the team.

Saban stated that a major reason (among others) why he left MSU was his inability to recruit there to the level he wanted. He BELIEVED he didn't possess the ability to win there. Osborne could've taken his skill to the SEC if we wanted an easier path to recruits, and by extension, wins/NCs. Instead he KNEW he had the ability to win at a high level despite disadvantages. Heck, even mulled taking the MSU job as new challenge. So my overall point is that I belief Osborne could've won at a high level wherever he went, and probably matched everything that Saban has accomplished at Bama if he'd coached there. I don't believe the same could be said if the situations were reversed. Let me know which jobs Osborne turned down or fled from because he didn't think he could win there.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Before Saban took over Alabama, three different coaches with the same recruiting advantages went a collective 67 - 55.

For that matter, Saban's predecessor at Michigan State went 63 - 50 in the 10 years prior to his arrival, a better winning percentage than all but Saban's last season at MSU.

This clearly demonstrates.......

...okay. I forgot where this was going. 

 

[jaws]

Head coach Belichick and defensive coordinator Nick Saban were fired by the Cleveland Browns in 1994. This clearly shows two things, never take a job with the Cleveland Browns because they clearly don't know what they are doing and people can get better with experience. The funny thing is, are we having this conversation about the best college coach of all time if the Miami doctors cleared Drew Brees to join Nick Saban in Miami? 

 

[junior4949]

Not for reasons that Saban stated.

Just because TO inherited a that won to NCs doesn't mean both NU and MSU aren't disadvantaged in relation to NU. For NU, its about recruiting base. For MSU it is/was more about finances and support. My statement wasn't an invitation to argue the merits of mid 70's NU versus those of '07 Bama. If anyone could just win at NU, Solich would still be coaching the team.

Saban stated that a major reason (among others) why he left MSU was his inability to recruit there to the level he wanted. He BELIEVED he didn't possess the ability to win there. Osborne could've taken his skill to the SEC if we wanted an easier path to recruits, and by extension, wins/NCs. Instead he KNEW he had the ability to win at a high level despite disadvantages. Heck, even mulled taking the MSU job as new challenge. So my overall point is that I belief Osborne could've won at a high level wherever he went, and probably matched everything that Saban has accomplished at Bama if he'd coached there. I don't believe the same could be said if the situations were reversed. Let me know which jobs Osborne turned down or fled from because he didn't think he could win there.

What makes you say the bolded?  In TO's 25 year head coaching career, SEC teams won or split six NCs.  In TO's 25 year head coaching career, the Big 8 won or split seven NCs.  

If anyone could just win at places in recruiting hotbeds, Florida wouldn't be looking for their first NC in a decade; Texas wouldn't be looking for their first NC in over a decade; USC wouldn't be looking for their first NC in over a decade; Notre Dame wouldn't be looking for their first NC in a couple of decades; etc. 

Considering NU has won five NCs since MSU, it's interesting you want to compare the two.  Having a recruiting base disadvantage is a hurdle, but having a financial and support disadvantage is a road block.     

 

[hskrpwr13]

Just because TO inherited a that won to NCs doesn't mean both NU and MSU aren't disadvantaged in relation to NU. For NU, its about recruiting base. For MSU it is/was more about finances and support. My statement wasn't an invitation to argue the merits of mid 70's NU versus those of '07 Bama. If anyone could just win at NU, Solich would still be coaching the team.

Saban stated that a major reason (among others) why he left MSU was his inability to recruit there to the level he wanted. He BELIEVED he didn't possess the ability to win there. Osborne could've taken his skill to the SEC if we wanted an easier path to recruits, and by extension, wins/NCs. Instead he KNEW he had the ability to win at a high level despite disadvantages. Heck, even mulled taking the MSU job as new challenge. So my overall point is that I belief Osborne could've won at a high level wherever he went, and probably matched everything that Saban has accomplished at Bama if he'd coached there. I don't believe the same could be said if the situations were reversed. Let me know which jobs Osborne turned down or fled from because he didn't think he could win there.

What makes you say the bolded?  In TO's 25 year head coaching career, SEC teams won or split six NCs.  In TO's 25 year head coaching career, the Big 8 won or split seven NCs.  

If anyone could just win at places in recruiting hotbeds, Florida wouldn't be looking for their first NC in a decade; Texas wouldn't be looking for their first NC in over a decade; USC wouldn't be looking for their first NC in over a decade; Notre Dame wouldn't be looking for their first NC in a couple of decades; etc. 

Considering NU has won five NCs since MSU, it's interesting you want to compare the two.  Having a recruiting base disadvantage is a hurdle, but having a financial and support disadvantage is a road block.     

I appreciate you want to have a discussion, but I feel like I'm being hooked.

The thread is essentially about Osborne V Saban as the "greater" coach. Saban left MSU, in large part, because he couldn't recruit at a high enough level to win at the level he wanted. Yes, the prestige of NU is greater than that of MSU, but MSU was, and still is, in a much better recruiting location. I think Saban has the talent that he could've taken MSU to the heights of an NU, if he had the desire to stay and do it. Instead, he took the easier path (not saying he's wrong for doing that, but I'm not going to discount that he did) of taking a job at a school in a recruiting hot bed (twice)...because it was an easier path to grand success. If TO had taken a similar path, I think he accomplishes the same level of success (maybe better?) for which we currently laud Saban. Yes, Saban officially has the numbers, and yes I'm biased to TO. But I'm willing to hand my team to the guy that believed he could reach the apex of the sport, even when things started going a bit south (thinking late 80s/early 90s), than with a guy that left a more similar situation to NU (MSU) to find an easier job to reach the apex of the sport. You can disagree, and certainly my opinion provides little "proof" that TO is better Saban, but hopefully, my support for my position are more clear.

Another thing, when I compare Osborne v Saban, is the conference/national competition each has faced through his career. Osborne, in conference, has had to face some big time coaches like Switzer, Snyder (in his prime), Bill McArtney, and nationally, guys like Bryant, Paterno, Saban, Jimmy Johnson, Hayes, Schembechler, Spurrier at Fla, and I know I'm leaving out other HOFers. Compare those to Saban's SEC tenure. In the SEC, Fulmer (after prime), Les Miles, Richt, Meyer (maybe I'm missing someone). Nationally: Meyer, Sweeney (but hes not yet been around long), maybe Jimbo, Carrol (when at USC) (maybe I'm missing someone), but I would certainly argue that the overall coaching competition Saban has faced most of his SEC career is nothing like the level of coaching TO faced during his tenure. Again, simply my opinion

 

[bigdhusker]

TO's 25 year run will never be matched.  He may not have won as many National Titles in that time frame, but he was the fastest coach in history to 250 wins and I don't ever forsee that record falling.  You'd have to coach for 25 seasons averaging 10 wins, never faltering for 25 years straight.  He finished in the AP Top 10 18 out of his 25 seasons coached.  He never finished outside of the top 25 for 25 straight years! Put that into perspective, and it's mind blowing what TO did here it Nebraska.

 

[GSG]

HOW MANY CARS DID T.O. BUY FOR HIS PLAYERS?

HOW MANY OF T.O.'S PLAYERS GOT BAGS OF CASH TO COME PLAY AT DONU?

 

[TGHusker]

HOW MANY CARS DID T.O. BUY FOR HIS PLAYERS?

HOW MANY OF T.O.'S PLAYERS GOT BAGS OF CASH TO COME PLAY AT DONU?

none

 

[TGHusker]

I know this is in the would have, could have and should have area of speculation: 2 more NCs were Tom's in 82,83.  One stolen by the ref - PSU in 82. One by his honor.  The 83 was his with a tie.  He chose the higher road.  Most other coaches won't have. Esp in today's world- you settle for a tie and you can finish it off in the over time period.  You can play it safe. 

 

[southernoregonhusker]

HOW MANY CARS DID T.O. BUY FOR HIS PLAYERS?

HOW MANY OF T.O.'S PLAYERS GOT BAGS OF CASH TO COME PLAY AT DONU?

How many guns has Nick Saban hidden from police?  

 

[junior4949]

I appreciate you want to have a discussion, but I feel like I'm being hooked.

The thread is essentially about Osborne V Saban as the "greater" coach. Saban left MSU, in large part, because he couldn't recruit at a high enough level to win at the level he wanted. Yes, the prestige of NU is greater than that of MSU, but MSU was, and still is, in a much better recruiting location. I think Saban has the talent that he could've taken MSU to the heights of an NU, if he had the desire to stay and do it. Instead, he took the easier path (not saying he's wrong for doing that, but I'm not going to discount that he did) of taking a job at a school in a recruiting hot bed (twice)...because it was an easier path to grand success. If TO had taken a similar path, I think he accomplishes the same level of success (maybe better?) for which we currently laud Saban. Yes, Saban officially has the numbers, and yes I'm biased to TO. But I'm willing to hand my team to the guy that believed he could reach the apex of the sport, even when things started going a bit south (thinking late 80s/early 90s), than with a guy that left a more similar situation to NU (MSU) to find an easier job to reach the apex of the sport. You can disagree, and certainly my opinion provides little "proof" that TO is better Saban, but hopefully, my support for my position are more clear.

Another thing, when I compare Osborne v Saban, is the conference/national competition each has faced through his career. Osborne, in conference, has had to face some big time coaches like Switzer, Snyder (in his prime), Bill McArtney, and nationally, guys like Bryant, Paterno, Saban, Jimmy Johnson, Hayes, Schembechler, Spurrier at Fla, and I know I'm leaving out other HOFers. Compare those to Saban's SEC tenure. In the SEC, Fulmer (after prime), Les Miles, Richt, Meyer (maybe I'm missing someone). Nationally: Meyer, Sweeney (but hes not yet been around long), maybe Jimbo, Carrol (when at USC) (maybe I'm missing someone), but I would certainly argue that the overall coaching competition Saban has faced most of his SEC career is nothing like the level of coaching TO faced during his tenure. Again, simply my opinion

The bolded makes absolutely zero sense.  You do realize when TO took over right?  NU was at the apex of the sport when he took over.  There was no reaching because we were already there.  Michigan State was enduring NCAA sanctions when Saban took the job.  Alabama was enduring NCAA sanctions when Saban took the job.  When one looks at Saban's career path objectively, it's hard to say he's taken the "easy" path. 

 

[hskrpwr13]

The bolded makes absolutely zero sense.  You do realize when TO took over right?  NU was at the apex of the sport when he took over.  There was no reaching because we were already there.  Michigan State was enduring NCAA sanctions when Saban took the job.  Alabama was enduring NCAA sanctions when Saban took the job.  When one looks at Saban's career path objectively, it's hard to say he's taken the "easy" path. 

Regarding the bold, you need a new line. You're wearing out that one. And one can make any comment seem senseless when all context is removed.

The point one was that TO's numbers would look even better (perhaps even better than Saban's) if he were at a program that had the advantages that he had at NU (advantages that Bama also has), plus the recruiting advantages that Bama has today. I believe that Osborne accomplishes every bit as much as Saban, and possibly more, if put in the same situation as Saban at Bama (or LSU). I've previously provided my reasoning. You're free to disagree. If this makes absolutely zero sense to you, simply assume an Inigo Montoya-type response.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

One of Osborne's advantages was playing in the Big 8.

I just don't think it compares to the Big 10 and SEC of today. 

They are two great coaches. That's for sure. 

 

[TGHusker]

One of Osborne's advantages was playing in the Big 8.

I just don't think it compares to the Big 10 and SEC of today. 

They are two great coaches. That's for sure. 

While not always true - there were a few times when 4 big 8 teams were in the top 10.  Too often it was Big 2, Small 6 - but KU, ISU, Co, KSU, Mo all had runs at the Big 2.

 

[Mavric]

One of Osborne's advantages was playing in the Big 8.

I just don't think it compares to the Big 10 and SEC of today. 

They are two great coaches. That's for sure. 

I definitely think this is part of it.  It's hard to control for all the variables.

Arguments against Osborne:

 - Generally weak conference

 - Fewer really good teams overall in CFB (less parity - stockpile talent)

 - Dominant over a shorter time period (fewer seasons at a national championship level)

Arguments against Saban:

 - Closer (easier?) recruiting base

 - Fewer undefeated seasons

 - Got "help" from post-season structure - didn't win division, wasn't in Top 2 at end of regular season, etc.