Team MVP

[zE bOp]

Sorry next time I’ll just post a stock answer and give Ganz some more leg humping.

Actually, I was thinking maybe just a wee bit less leg humping of Pud and Clownahan.

That might make since if I was always talking about how great those guys are like some on here do with Ganz. The man crushes that some have on Ganz are pretty disturbing and a little bit weird. :wub:

If I ever seriously stick up for Pederson or Callahan it is because nobody else around here will. If that makes me a leg humper :leghump: then I guess I am. I didn’t think that is what the saying meant but I guess I better get out my urban dictionary to find out for sure.

Like I said above I vote for Suh for MVP. It will be harder to replace him (if he leaves) and his production compared to Ganz. IMO

Well, let's see how the replacement for Turner went. Allen ended up 4th in tackles even though he started 2 games less than Suh. He ended up with just 1.5 sacks less than Suh, yet he started 2 games less than Suh.

Potter didn't have as many tackles as Suh, but his stats tie or are better in about every other category. They both had 5.5 sacks. They both had 2 INT's, and keep in mind Suh's INT's came from Potter pass break ups. Potter had twice as many pass break ups as Suh. They both had 6 QB hurries. Both had a forced fumble. Potter had 3 blocked kicks to Suh's 1. From the stats, it's hard to argue that Suh had a better season than Potter. I don't see how he can be the MVP.

Now if you want me to go through the stats between Ganz and his backup, I can. However, I think you get the point that they'll be pretty one sided.

Comparing Suh and Potter is not the same as comparing Ganz and the backups. It isn’t even close. The Suh to Potter thing is like comparing Swift and Peterson. They both played at the same time. Ganz never left the game to get the back up in the game anyway. On that token compare Suh’s back-ups production to his and it will be the same as Ganz-Witt/Lee is.

As far as how they played in the losses, does it matter because we lost so neither of them did enough to win. Couldn’t you say that Ganz’ interception against Texas Tech trumps or is the same as Suh’s penalty against Va-Tech?

For the record Potter had 25 less tackles then Suh (33 solo 35 assists compared to 13 solo and 30 assists). Potter had a really good year and probably made himself some money because of it. Suh’s back-up Terrance Moore : 8 tackles (3 solo and 5 assists, 2 TFL, 2 Sacks).

Why are we comparing backups?

Also, for everyone, who cares if Suh and Ganz made a few 'bad' plays? First, you could blame Ganz's INT in the TT game as much on the O'line as him, he had no time on that one.

Both Suh and Ganz were trying their butts off on those plays and that's what matters, but a few bad plays are of little significance in the bigger picture.

I think BO's penalty was more significant in the VT loss anyway, moved the ball to the 10, but BO shouldn't have been flagged IMO. Suh's penalty was legit, but he was trying and just couldn't stop himself.

 

[Pedro Guerrero]

For the record, Suh's backup had almost half as many sacks as Suh. Did Witt have half as many TD's as Ganz? Without Potter breaking up those passes, Suh has zero INT's. The reason Ganz never left the game probably has more to do with the coaches not having much/any faith at all in the backups. I still stand by my original argument. NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did. NU does not have the same record at 8-4 if Ganz goes down to injury early in the season. This is how I compare the two with regards to an MVP season.

I can accept or at least consider almost any argument for or against Suh or Ganz either way, it's a fun debate. However, this....

"NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did."

.... I can't agree with. Teams win and lose games in the trenches. Suh's value to the team is much more difficult to see tangibly than Ganz's value. You can't measure the disruption that a DL can have on a game when he is dominating and doesn't record a stat. To paraphrase another board member... you can't only use stats to measure greatness. Suh, however, does have great stats for a DL and his value is even better than those stats would indicate. I think our DBs (with all of their wealth of experience) might appreciate the plays that they make because of something Suh does or something the offense does to game plan because of him. Ganz is the easy pick to make. You Ganz guys may still be right, I'm not infallible by any stretch, I just think for my money... it's Suh. JMHO

:yeah :thumbs

 

[zE bOp]

For the record, Suh's backup had almost half as many sacks as Suh. Did Witt have half as many TD's as Ganz? Without Potter breaking up those passes, Suh has zero INT's. The reason Ganz never left the game probably has more to do with the coaches not having much/any faith at all in the backups. I still stand by my original argument. NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did. NU does not have the same record at 8-4 if Ganz goes down to injury early in the season. This is how I compare the two with regards to an MVP season.

I think the reason they left Ganz in the games is that we didn't really have too many games in hand 'til sometime in the 4th qtr.

WMU and NMSU were probably the only games where backups might have seen the field earlier. Maybe ISU.

 

[zE bOp]

For the record, Suh's backup had almost half as many sacks as Suh. Did Witt have half as many TD's as Ganz? Without Potter breaking up those passes, Suh has zero INT's. The reason Ganz never left the game probably has more to do with the coaches not having much/any faith at all in the backups. I still stand by my original argument. NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did. NU does not have the same record at 8-4 if Ganz goes down to injury early in the season. This is how I compare the two with regards to an MVP season.

I still stand by my statement that it will be easier to replace Ganz and his production compared to Suh and his. Like I said when was the last time we had a 1st/2nd Team All Big 12 DL and the answer was 1999. So wouldn’t that show you that Suh is not as replaceable as you try to make out to be? Plug in Terrance Moore and it is business as usual? I don’t buy it. But as Ganz has shown by following so closely behind Zac Taylor, pretty good QB’s come around more often and are a little easier to replace.

So what that Suh wouldn’t have his Interceptions if it wasn’t for Potter, Ganz had a lot of help compiling his stats no didn’t he? Receivers catching passes, OL blocking etc.

I don’t like that the stock answer for everything as far as football MVP’s go is just pick a QB. I just think that is way to easy and people just always fall back on that because that is who gets the most face time on TV and in the press. It doesn’t hurt that a lot of folks have a chubby for Ganz and think he can do no wrong.

Ganz had a very good season and if people want him to be the MVP I have no problem with that. I may not agree but I’m fine with it.

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

 

[junior4949]

For the record, Suh's backup had almost half as many sacks as Suh. Did Witt have half as many TD's as Ganz? Without Potter breaking up those passes, Suh has zero INT's. The reason Ganz never left the game probably has more to do with the coaches not having much/any faith at all in the backups. I still stand by my original argument. NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did. NU does not have the same record at 8-4 if Ganz goes down to injury early in the season. This is how I compare the two with regards to an MVP season.

I can accept or at least consider almost any argument for or against Suh or Ganz either way, it's a fun debate. However, this....

"NU has the same record at 8-4 if Suh goes down to injury early in the season like Turner did."

.... I can't agree with. Teams win and lose games in the trenches. Suh's value to the team is much more difficult to see tangibly than Ganz's value. You can't measure the disruption that a DL can have on a game when he is dominating and doesn't record a stat. To paraphrase another board member... you can't only use stats to measure greatness. Suh, however, does have great stats for a DL and his value is even better than those stats would indicate. I think our DBs (with all of their wealth of experience) might appreciate the plays that they make because of something Suh does or something the offense does to game plan because of him. Ganz is the easy pick to make. You Ganz guys may still be right, I'm not infallible by any stretch, I just think for my money... it's Suh. JMHO

If you look at the stats, the DL was very good. Like I've already pointed out, the DL ended up ranked in tackles like this: #1, #4, #6, & #7. Keep in mind that the #4 ranked in tackles was a backup to Turner at the beginning of the season until Turner went down with injury. It's already been pointed out that Suh's backup had almost 1/2 as many sacks as Suh did, so it's not that much of a leap to assume we'd have been just fine had Suh gone down with injury. Moore only saw very limited action in just 7 games. With the strength of the DL around Suh, I have no doubt we'd have been ok had he gone down with injury.

 

[father5]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

 

[zE bOp]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

So you are saying, hypothetically, that we go 8-4 with the 2nd string QB say Witt, but not with a 2nd string DT, say Barfield?

I don't see it. We outscored our opponents to win games, we didn't shut them down defensively. ISU and NMSU don't count, they were just inept in and of themselves.

 

[father5]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

So you are saying, hypothetically, that we go 8-4 with the 2nd string QB say Witt, but not with a 2nd string DT, say Barfield?

I don't see it. We outscored our opponents to win games, we didn't shut them down defensively. ISU and NMSU don't count, they were just inept in and of themselves.

No no no. Don't put words in my mouth, now. C'mon bop. I'm saying I think Suh is more important to this team than Ganz. I did also say that I thought we wouldn't be 8-4 without him. That's it. It's tough to say what would have happened if Ganz went down. I simply think he's more valuable, that's it.

 

[zE bOp]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

So you are saying, hypothetically, that we go 8-4 with the 2nd string QB say Witt, but not with a 2nd string DT, say Barfield?

I don't see it. We outscored our opponents to win games, we didn't shut them down defensively. ISU and NMSU don't count, they were just inept in and of themselves.

No no no. Don't put words in my mouth, now. C'mon bop. I'm saying I think Suh is more important to this team than Ganz. I did also say that I thought we wouldn't be 8-4 without him. That's it. It's tough to say what would have happened if Ganz went down. I simply think he's more valuable, that's it.

Well, I think we might be able to be 8-4 with Suh's backup playing and definitely not with Ganz's backup playing. Back in '94 when Tommie went down, the D did admirably to get some W's with Brook at the helm, but no way we win the NC w/o Tommie.

Ganz is more valuable, the MVP of the team, IMO. I think Swift is 2nd in line, then probably Suh, although I think Potter was nearly as good as Suh. Now, if they would have used Suh more widely as a receiver, then maybe he trumps Swift. :thumbs

I would be thrilled if Suh becomes a dominant force next yr though and our D really starts shutting other teams down.

 

[jjamuss]

ganz - all time yardage record, swift breaking the Jets record and a bunch of others noteworthy but to numerous to mention... excellent season for what the team has endured, couldnt be prouder of the kids. :koolaid2:

 

[father5]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

So you are saying, hypothetically, that we go 8-4 with the 2nd string QB say Witt, but not with a 2nd string DT, say Barfield?

I don't see it. We outscored our opponents to win games, we didn't shut them down defensively. ISU and NMSU don't count, they were just inept in and of themselves.

No no no. Don't put words in my mouth, now. C'mon bop. I'm saying I think Suh is more important to this team than Ganz. I did also say that I thought we wouldn't be 8-4 without him. That's it. It's tough to say what would have happened if Ganz went down. I simply think he's more valuable, that's it.

Well, I think we might be able to be 8-4 with Suh's backup playing and definitely not with Ganz's backup playing. Back in '94 when Tommie went down, the D did admirably to get some W's with Brook at the helm, but no way we win the NC w/o Tommie.

Ganz is more valuable, the MVP of the team, IMO. I think Swift is 2nd in line, then probably Suh, although I think Potter was nearly as good as Suh. Now, if they would have used Suh more widely as a receiver, then maybe he trumps Swift. :thumbs

I would be thrilled if Suh becomes a dominant force next yr though and our D really starts shutting other teams down.

Don't forget though, not only did they win with Brook in 94, but against #6 K State they had to start Matt Turman.... and we crushed them without throwing but maybe like 5 times or something. Hey, I could be wrong, I just think what I think. :horns2

 

[zE bOp]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

So you are saying, hypothetically, that we go 8-4 with the 2nd string QB say Witt, but not with a 2nd string DT, say Barfield?

I don't see it. We outscored our opponents to win games, we didn't shut them down defensively. ISU and NMSU don't count, they were just inept in and of themselves.

No no no. Don't put words in my mouth, now. C'mon bop. I'm saying I think Suh is more important to this team than Ganz. I did also say that I thought we wouldn't be 8-4 without him. That's it. It's tough to say what would have happened if Ganz went down. I simply think he's more valuable, that's it.

Well, I think we might be able to be 8-4 with Suh's backup playing and definitely not with Ganz's backup playing. Back in '94 when Tommie went down, the D did admirably to get some W's with Brook at the helm, but no way we win the NC w/o Tommie.

Ganz is more valuable, the MVP of the team, IMO. I think Swift is 2nd in line, then probably Suh, although I think Potter was nearly as good as Suh. Now, if they would have used Suh more widely as a receiver, then maybe he trumps Swift. :thumbs

I would be thrilled if Suh becomes a dominant force next yr though and our D really starts shutting other teams down.

Don't forget though, not only did they win with Brook in 94, but against #6 K State they had to start Matt Turman.... and we crushed them without throwing but maybe like 5 times or something. Hey, I could be wrong, I just think what I think. :horns2

Well, our D was awesome back then.

 

[Pedro Guerrero]

Why do people just think we can plug in any back-up DL and replace Suh and what he meant to this team? Like I said he is the first All Conference DL since 1999 which is almost 10 years ago for those counting at home. If it was so easy to replace them don’t you think we would have had one since then? Zac Taylor was Big 12 Player of the Year in 2006, which was just 2 years ago. Ganz can be replaced and will be replaced by a QB that will have very similar stats as his. That is just the way it works. As history has shown it is a lot easier to replace a QB then it is a DL. Unless you are OU, USC, UT, OSU and you crap out quality players every year.

For the record wasn’t Ganz an unproven back-up at one point? So it’s not like unproven back-up QB’s can’t come in and win ball games for you.

Here is a season to season comparison between Jason Peter and Suh. I just think this puts it into perspective the kind of season Suh had.

Peter - 22 UT, 38 AT, 60 Total, TFL 15-61, Sacks 7-40, Int 0, PBrUp 4, FF 1, FR 2, BK 0

Suh - 33 UT, 35 AT, 68 Total, TFL 15-61, Sacks 5.5-48, Int 2-79, PBrUp 3, FF 1, FR 0, BK 1

There is no need for anyone to flash Ganz’ stats up against anyone, we all know what they are because he is the poster boy of the program. Like I’ve said I have no problem with people saying Ganz is the MVP, I can accept that. I just don’t think it is so far fetched to think that Suh is the MVP either but maybe that is just me.

 

[bign2huskers]

it's gotta be ganz.....i just cant see where we would be without him..

 

[junior4949]

If you have a crap QB and a great DT you're not gonna win too many games. They don't call the QB the field general for nothing. As the QB goes, so goes the team in most cases, it's just the way it is.

This is true, but then you are not really talking about the 2008 Huskers with that statement. Without Ganz we don't neccessarily have a crap QB, just an unproven one. On the DL, though, we don't have any true killers except for Suh.

Junior made some good points that the DL had very good stats across the board. It's true. However, while I hate to look stubborn, I honestly believe that the whole line benefits from a guy like Suh. Oh well, I guess I'm stubborn. At least I admit it. Great thread.

I hate to look stubborn, but I honestly believe Suh benefitted from guys like Potter and Steinkuhler. It's already been noted that Suh's INT's came from deflected passes by Potter. When you lose a starter and the backup comes in on the DL and ends the season ranked #4 for tackles, I think the argument that you can't plug in another DL without drop off kind of doesn't hold water.

On another note, who started the NC game in 1994? Yes, it was none other than Tommie. Why was he replaced by Berringer? Because he threw a costly INT. It was the OL that dominated that game which sprung Schlesinger for those TD's. IMO, it's naive to believe we don't win that game with Berringer running the team. Berringer did throw a pic as well, but at least it was in the endzone going for a score and pinned Miami deep.