The Democrat Utopia

Archy1221 said:
Who doesn’t have the right to vote that used to have the right to vote?  Changing established norms in the Senate to fix a non problem seems like a weird flex 
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Dems are talking about the spirit of the law, you're talking about the letter of the law. Both are fine conversations but when we respond to one with the other we are talking past each other and not to each other.

 
Lorewarn said:
Dems are talking about the spirit of the law, you're talking about the letter of the law. Both are fine conversations but when we respond to one with the other we are talking past each other and not to each other.
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From what I gather, you live somewhere in GA.   A state that was in the news quite frequently in 2022 if I have my years correct because of the voting law that was passed.  
 

The national news and echoed by Democrats ran stories that the law will disenfranchise voters, Democrats literally were quoted in news stories (even on this board) that people were having their right to vote taken away.   
 

I also gathered from news stories posted on this board and that I read in various publications that polling places were being shut down in GA and would cause extremely long lines.   Possibly making people decide not to vote.  
 

Now, it’s my understanding that Fulton County was subject to these closures and one of the reasons Democrats were trying to say Republicans were closing polling places in Democrat friendly areas.   But from doing a little research at the time, isn’t the county election offices responsible for how many polling places are open in each country in the state of GA?   
 

If that’s the case, one would assume Fulton County would be run by mainly Democrats and be their issue. 
 

Could you shed any light on GA in particular with their voting law and the impact it had on turnout, and the polling place shutdown issue?   If so thanks.  

 
You'd have to give me actual literal quotes of democrats and board members saying that the right to vote was being taken away for me to believe it. I believe that claims have been made that the voting rights of some have been infringed upon, or are in jeopardy, are being attacked and so on, but I am skeptical of that claim being made by people because that claim isn't true.

Thankfully, thus far in Georgia, voter registration and turnout have swelled despite efforts to suppress it (attaching a correlation to the two ie 'voter surpression is proven by less votes or proven fake by more votes' is irresponsible without rigorous study controlling for multiple variables). I'm no expert and can offer no specific insight into the inner workings and framework of who is responsible for what/where/how in terms of polling places, but I do know that the state has several hundred fewer polling places now than it did before the Voting Rights Act got gutted. Some counties have had have had 80+% of their sites closed and some (I think 7) have one single polling site for hundreds of square miles. I also know that since the Georgia bill went into effect, the Atlanta metro area's number of ballot drop off boxes has dropped from over 100 to 25 or so. 

Again, to answer your question very clearly of "Who doesn’t have the right to vote that used to have the right to vote?", the answer is either nobody or a very very small number of people. But that's not what people are talking about and you know that. 

Voter suppression isn't denying people a right that they used to have, because the bad actors with bad intentions aren't stupid enough to spell it out that way. Instead, it's coming up with barriers, impediments, annoyances, and confusion that follow the letter of the law but have a clear yet unspoken spirit behind them. It's making election workers have to deal with hundreds of hours of "voter challenges" issued by other voters (A 2022 challenge to 37,000 voters in Gwinnett County forced 5 to 10 election staffers to work “all day, every day, six days a week” for multiple weeks and did not turn up a single ineligible voter). It's making college students have to drive two hours back home to vote in person because they're confused and don't want challenges by trying to do mail-in. It's making some folks have to stand in line for six hours. It's making other folks have to go to a hearing to prove their eligibility when they realize their registration is in jeopardy because of a clerical error that someone has challenged. 

The correct technical answer to "Who doesn’t have the right to vote that used to have the right to vote?" now is the same correct technical answer to the same question in the Jim Crowe days. More interesting questions to me are who has a more difficult time being able to exercise their right to vote now than they did before, who's making that more difficult, and why?

 
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Lorewarn said:
You'd have to give me actual literal quotes of democrats and board members saying that the right to vote was being taken away for me to believe it. I believe that claims have been made that the voting rights of some have been infringed upon, or are in jeopardy, are being attacked and so on, but I am skeptical of that claim being made by people because that claim isn't true.

Thankfully, thus far in Georgia, voter registration and turnout have swelled despite efforts to suppress it (attaching a correlation to the two ie 'voter surpression is proven by less votes or proven fake by more votes' is irresponsible without rigorous study controlling for multiple variables). I'm no expert and can offer no specific insight into the inner workings and framework of who is responsible for what/where/how in terms of polling places, but I do know that the state has several hundred fewer polling places now than it did before the Voting Rights Act got gutted. Some counties have had have had 80+% of their sites closed and some (I think 7) have one single polling site for hundreds of square miles. I also know that since the Georgia bill went into effect, the Atlanta metro area's number of ballot drop off boxes has dropped from over 100 to 25 or so. 

Again, to answer your question very clearly of "Who doesn’t have the right to vote that used to have the right to vote?", the answer is either nobody or a very very small number of people. But that's not what people are talking about and you know that. 

Voter suppression isn't denying people a right that they used to have, because the bad actors with bad intentions aren't stupid enough to spell it out that way. Instead, it's coming up with barriers, impediments, annoyances, and confusion that follow the letter of the law but have a clear yet unspoken spirit behind them. It's making election workers have to deal with hundreds of hours of "voter challenges" issued by other voters (A 2022 challenge to 37,000 voters in Gwinnett County forced 5 to 10 election staffers to work “all day, every day, six days a week” for multiple weeks and did not turn up a single ineligible voter). It's making college students have to drive two hours back home to vote in person because they're confused and don't want challenges by trying to do mail-in. It's making some folks have to stand in line for six hours. It's making other folks have to go to a hearing to prove their eligibility when they realize their registration is in jeopardy because of a clerical error that someone has challenged. 

The correct technical answer to "Who doesn’t have the right to vote that used to have the right to vote?" now is the same correct technical answer to the same question in the Jim Crowe days. More interesting questions to me are who has a more difficult time being able to exercise their right to vote now than they did before, who's making that more difficult, and why?
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Appreciate the feedback.  
 

You should take a look at WHY there are less polling places and WHO decided to close them vs stating that there are less polling places. 
 

Lorewarn said:
Thankfully, thus far in Georgia, voter registration and turnout have swelled despite efforts to suppress it (attaching a correlation to the two ie 'voter surpression is proven by less votes or proven fake by more votes' is irresponsible without rigorous study controlling for multiple variables)
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Saying there are voter suppression efforts in place when EVERYONE has to abide by the same rules is a bit irresponsible.   I could understand one single argument with that, reduction in polling places but even that has little fruit to bear in your home state.   Mail in voting is a thing so no one has to wait in line, and the Democrat counties that reduced polling places were decided by the democrats in charge (at least that the way I understood the law).  
 

Anyone over 22 has had four years to get things in order to be eligible.  Anyone age 19 at the time of the election has had an entire year to get things in order.  
 

Election workers dealing with election challenges isn’t making voting harder, as those votes have already been cast.  It’s my understanding that the election workers get paid for their time so what do they care.  If they aren’t getting paid then that seems like a correctable injustice.  
 

Anyways thanks for the input of what you could answer 

 
Archy1221 said:
You should take a look at WHY there are less polling places and WHO decided to close them vs stating that there are less polling places. 
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I'd be glad for any info in this regard.

Archy1221 said:
Saying there are voter suppression efforts in place when EVERYONE has to abide by the same rules is a bit irresponsible.  
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Nice in theory, but falls short in the real world imo.

Having to present a valid ID at a polling place doesn't seem like suppression in a vacuum (applies equally to everybody), but when we sus out that poor and minority folks are the ones most likely to not have an ID, and that the people leading the charge for the ID law are people who benefit from those people not voting, then we need to evaluate the why. In a vacuum, not a bad idea nor one that I disagree with on principle, but the why behind it is crucially important.

Banning voters from passing out food and water to voters in lines 150 feet away from a polling place doesn't seem like suppression in a vacuum (applies equally to everybody), but when we know that the people most likely to be in hours long lines to vote are poor and minority folks, and that the people leading the charge for this unconstitutional ban are those who benefit from those people not voting, then we need to evaluate the why.  This was thankfully overruled, but is one of many pieces of evidence that there are active and insidious efforts out there.

SB202 makes it a felony for anyone other than a caregiver or certain family members to help a voter return an absentee ballot and also mandates ballot drop offs be indoors and unavailable during business hours (previously many/most were outside). These don't seem like suppression in a vacuum, but there are all sorts of disabled people who are disenfranchised and squeezed into a restrictive and burdensome reality to try and be able to cast their vote.

Archy1221 said:
Election workers dealing with election challenges isn’t making voting harder, as those votes have already been cast.
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You're right, but swamping them with hours of frivolous work leads to distractions, chaos, opportunity for mistakes, but more importantly opportunity to cast doubts and ultimately chip away at the erosion of confidence in the system imo. 

 
Lorewarn said:
Having to present a valid ID at a polling place doesn't seem like suppression in a vacuum (applies equally to everybody), but when we sus out that poor and minority folks are the ones most likely to not have an ID, and that the people leading the charge for the ID law are people who benefit from those people not voting, then we need to evaluate the why. In a vacuum, not a bad idea nor one that I disagree with on principle, but the why behind it is crucially important
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Voting ID’s in states that require them are generally free to get and people know exactly when elections are held so I that’s a them problem.  On a side note, guess where these poor and elderly folks have to show an ID?   When using their government Medicaid/Medicare benefits at the Dr.’s office.  The “I can’t get an ID to vote cause I’m poor” is a bunk complaint.  Why people use that complaint even when it’s dispelled is also critically important.  
 

Lorewarn said:
SB202 makes it a felony for anyone other than a caregiver or certain family members to help a voter return an absentee ballot and also mandates ballot drop offs be indoors and unavailable during business hours (previously many/most were outside). These don't seem like suppression in a vacuum, but there are all sorts of disabled people who are disenfranchised and squeezed into a restrictive and burdensome reality to try and be able to cast their vote.
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How are they restricted?   Do these people not have a mailing address? I believe you need one in order to register.   Can they not vote by mail if it’s so cumbersome to follow the law?  Can their family member or caregiver not drop off the ballot for them if somehow vote by mail isn’t an option?  I don’t see the issue here 

Appreciate your feedback on the issue and I acknowledge your way of thinking.   Just disagree with it. 

 
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