B.B. Hemingway

Nice and normal.

2 minutes ago, commando said:

you said that teaching CRT would hurt little kids feelings.    i suggested that teaching german kids about the nazis might hurt their feelings also.   but the germans still do it because it's vital to teach about the past so we can learn from it.     

I didn't say that, but yeah, teach kids all they want about the impact slavery had on our country, and past civil rights violations. That's great. We learned all about that 20 years ago when I was in high school. I'm glad we're on the same page.

1 minute ago, commando said:

i guess it's good thing CRT is more a study about the racists laws than a study about slavery  or civil rights.    

I was speaking to your Nazi/Germany example. I gave you the closest American equivalent to it. Are you suggesting the alleged, modern plight of black people is comparable to what the Jews faced in Nazi Germany?

2 minutes ago, commando said:

the germans teach their kids about nazis.  do you think they shouldn't?

Probably a good idea. But, I think you know I'm not suggesting we don't teach about slavery or the civil rights movement in the 60s etc.

54 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

As I understand it, the main complaints about Critical Race Theory don't question the actual history, they're just saying it might make white kids feel uncomfortable.

 

The irony there is staggering. 

 

CRT is another dog whistle getting lots of play in GOP campaigns. 

I'm okay with uncomfortable conversations, but are you suggesting that white children should be willing to feel guilt for past government and current culture failures?

48 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

This is how/where this conversation gets so difficult. It's not that there's nothing valuable or legitimate about the effects of cultures on the people inside of them, but... in the context of race-related issues it usually seems at least decently misguided.

 

One thing I think almost always missed in the "be responsible and work hard and you'll succeed" mantra is an acknowledgment of how easily certain groups can still succeed without being responsible and working hard compared to others. Another is why the primary onus and burden of responsibility should be focused on relatively powerless individuals and not on the large and infinitely more powerful entities who impact them. 

Suggesting that any adult is "relatively powerless" when it comes to becoming a productive and successful individual is laughable at the very least, and probably offensive to those groups at it's worst.

.

2 hours ago, NM11046 said:

I think, as a general rule, someone that accuses others of "throwing out the race card" and that all other people's discussions "come down to race" probably should be a little more introspective.

I would argue the need for being introspective could go both ways.

6 hours ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

Encouraging people to take responsibility for themselves is one thing; using that to conveniently ignore or disproportionately care less about abuses/disadvantages/unfairness of systems, infrastructure and culture is another. I'm a huge fan of individual responsibility; I'm also a huge fan of diagnosing and fixing why two separate irresponsible people can have dramatically different life results, and why two separate responsible people can as well.

 

As far as asian cultures and their "model minority" success in America, that's a highly complex and multi-faceted topic. The successes are easy to graph and document, the costs of that success aren't as easy. Things like internalized shame and dishonor, as well as unimaginable burdens of pressure and stress of expectations placed upon young Asian people are as widespread as their high earnings and academic performance. Another thing to think about, although I don't know if there's much research on this, is that there's a "purifying" self-selection process at work in cultures who are only coming here voluntarily. Large portions of the black population in America has generational ancestry going back to hundreds of years of slave trade by force. Large portions of the hispanic population are driven by desperation for any available work and geographical proximity. Most of the asian people coming here and staying are the smartest and/or richest and/or most resourceful, which leads to a very understandable selection bias and high social performance.

 

There *is* a conversation to be had about healthy cultures producing healthy results, no matter what skin color or background somebody has. But it's a very difficult conversation to have in good faith because it's nearly always lacking in nuance and the right questions and too often is full of unnecessary blame.

Great post. 

Maybe I'm missing it, but the conversation of the benefits of a healthy culture, and how counterproductive/harmful black American culture can be, doesn't seem to be had all that often. If there is an attempt to have that conversation, it is often met with, including on here, accusations of being racist and a whole lot of virtue signaling. I happen to think culture, and individual decisions play a much bigger role in determining success than anecdotal evidence of racism, or whatever bit of institutional racism that might be left over in small pockets of this country. Wouldn't it be more productive to focus on the things that can be fixed with individual effort, rather than becoming fixated on the occasional white guy who doesn't want to give you a job?

8 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

An example of this….My oldest boy is extremely smart in the math and sciences aspect of school.   Each spring from second through 5th grade he would attend a Saturday test for the School District to test out of the next grade level math course.   They would eventually get four years ahead on their math credits.  Of the room full of students doing this ( hundreds across the district and various grades) I would guess 70% were East Asian or kids whose parents came from India.   It was pushed very hard in those communities.  Maybe 20% were white and the rest Black or Hispanic.  
 

Get out of here with your anecdotal evidence! 

10 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

There is an extremely well documented history of brutal racism in America, and reams of statistical and anecdotal evidence confirming that it hasn't gone away. The suggestion that Black grievance might go away if you show that Asians make more money than whites smacks of wishful thinking, and that's kind of a weird wish. 

It's rarely out of anyone's grasp to better their situations for themselves, and their families. There are a lot of good decisions to be made (or bad decisions corrected) before you get to blame strangers for your plight, especially in 2022. If you know any families of Asian descent, you'll know that they're usually low on excuses and high on accountability. Along with their food, it's one of my favorite traits of their culture.

5 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

When they split so dramatically between racial groups what else would you call it?

 

(and I didn't know the Asian fact - thanks for that, quick google shows that is even more nuanced ... some Asian groups earn more than another, so initially racism vs. whites (yes) but then classism?

How would you explain the even larger gap between Whites and Asians?

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

 

No. I'm saying would YOU rather be black or white. Same Archy, same upbringing and profession, same vertical jump. But one day you wake up a Black man in Kansas. 

 

Think you'll notice anything different?

Does racism explain Asians making $1.15 for every $1.00 white people earn?

Not trying to be a smart a$$ here, Guy, I enjoy having discussions with you. I just don't think it's entirely fair to assume pay gaps point to racism.

(Bah. I quoted the wrong post of yours, but you get it).

1 minute ago, NM11046 said:

Explain what you mean by this BB - can't tell if there is sarcasm in it or not.  If there isn't, help me understand. 

It's definitely not sarcasm. I imagine that the chances are good that a black man would have a safer, steady, and consistent life in Kansas than he would in the inner cities.

50 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

 

No. I'm saying would YOU rather be black or white. Same Archy, same upbringing and profession, same vertical jump. But one day you wake up a Black man in Kansas. 

 

Think you'll notice anything different?

The black man waking up in Kansas, surrounded by white people, is likely to fair a lot better than if he woke up in Harlem.

1 hour ago, Archy1221 said:

 

What matters the most to me is I’d rather come from a two parent household that emphasizes and takes interest in their kids development

Bingo.

3 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

That's because somewhere along the way those phrases also became dogwhistles.

Yeah.

21 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I may be speaking out of turn for Guy, but several of the larger, louder groups that are fighting tor return to "simpler times" have very specific nationalism messaging, including a return to more "family values", and they desire a return to the USA being primarily a white, Germanic, Roman, Greek and Western Europeon led country.  That any person that is not white is not equal.  Many base this on the founding fathers being that, and that anyone else was not who this country was built for.

 

There is a VERY strong undercurrent of white nationalism in many of the hate groups that are prevalent right now.  And it should be said before someone tries to belittle my comments that yes, these groups and opinions have been around for a long time.  But recent events have made their members more apt to speak out and be proud of their positions, and they are actively recruiting.  

Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with "family values", or even wanting to be around people "like" you. It's something we're all guilty of. And people "like" you, doesn't even have to have anything to do with color. It can be anything from geographical ties, to similar careers. Somewhere along the way phrases like "family values" and "hard work" became buzzwords, which is hilariously ironic.

4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

 

Are Americans who yearn to get back to a simpler time when white identify politics went unquestioned racist — consciously or otherwise?  Yeah. Probably. 

4 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Hard to argue with a lot of your post, but this deserves a little pushback. Longing for simpler times is hardly exclusive to white people, racist or not. There's also a significant difference in supporting politics that might be seen as self serving, and being a racist. There's nothing inherently racist about voting to protect your self interests. Is tribalism the same as racism?I don't think so, but would be willing to listen to an argument that says otherwise. Tribalism is baked into our DNA. Good luck ridding our world of that.

If a news organization wants to be seen as unbiased they just need to cut out two things:  1-- The short, intense, made-for-tv debates. They're dumb, agenda motivated, and playing a role in ruining this country... 2-- The commentary. Tell us what happened, or is happening. Full stop.... Not your interpretation of why. Not your interpretation of motives, or who the victim is. Just the news. BBC largely does this, especially on their nightly "World News" show, and it's why I tune in.  Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC can all go f#&% themselves.

3 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

The fear is that it might eff with the altimeter on planes since the frequency is  so close. Supposedly it hasn’t happened in other areas but whoever (AT&T, Verizon?) is supposed to prove that it won’t interfere hasn’t done so yet.

Thanks, JJ. That kind of stuff is of no interest to me, but have seen concern from some about it's impact. Not just on planes, but other areas. Never understood why.

I'm so out of touch with this kind of technology, so I'll go ahead and ask the dumb question.... Why would 5G, which is faster internet (right?), shut down planes and cars? Also, why are people concerned about it in the first place.

Maybe I've missed it on here, but what's the plan at Center?

19 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

The one that amazes me is Boris Johnson who put in place strict lock downs.  Then, attended a party the night before the Queen's husband's funeral where she was forced to sit alone.

 

Talk about a piece of s#!t.

A little off topic, but I wonder how long they're going to keep up the Royal Family thing? I know tax dollars are wasted all the time, but that's a new level. Take back power, or get out.

16 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

It's just not as fun (or profitable) to fight against actual oppression.

The QB room would appear to be much better than it was a few months ago, and thats with your 4 year starter leaving. Not bad.