Is the Ohio State situation worse than NU in 2007?

[NUance]

It just makes them more selective, SC has kids lined up to attend that crap hole. Ohio State will not suffer much and they are in a way better situation than we were. They have not lost every record they ever had in a span of 5 years. We circled the barrel for quite awhile, they will never sniff lower than the top of it is my guess.

I believe the kids that do the crime should suffer, not the ones that show up later, the coach should carry the deed with him where ever he goes, and the NFL should line up and do things right, see Pete Carol.

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I hope they show up here ready to play and I am hoping they are undefeated when they hit memorial stadium.

That's actually a pretty good idea--sanctions follow the coach. Now THAT would be a deterrent. A coach who screws up a program would basically be forced out of ncaa college ball.

 

[Scarlet Overkill]

Ok, maybe I'm over thinking things, but if they are allowed 75 scholarship players at any given time, how does that really hurt them at all? It's just 10 fewer than most. I realize they can sign only 15 new guys a year, but what's to prevent them from awarding a walk-on with a scholarship to get up to 75 -- are they allowed to do things like that? If so, then what would prevent them from cheating and getting kids to grey shirt or something only not call it a grey shirt.

Ok, I'm done asking questions because I need to get some damned work done now.

 

[huskerscott]

Ohio State is in a much worse situation, and it's not even close. They're facing significant NCAA sanctions including loss of scholarships and post-season bans. All we did was buy out a sucky coach. They're definitely worse off than we were.

Completely agree. I think with tOSU we are talking about 5-8 year struggle for them. I believe they will get everything but the death penalty thrown at them.

 

[REDSTEEL]

Nebraska Death Penalty was in 2004 but, then that was self inflicted. chuckleshuffle

 

[Enhance]

Ok, maybe I'm over thinking things, but if they are allowed 75 scholarship players at any given time, how does that really hurt them at all? It's just 10 fewer than most. I realize they can sign only 15 new guys a year, but what's to prevent them from awarding a walk-on with a scholarship to get up to 75 -- are they allowed to do things like that? If so, then what would prevent them from cheating and getting kids to grey shirt or something only not call it a grey shirt.

Ok, I'm done asking questions because I need to get some damned work done now.

For starters, consider this. Two years from now, USC will have recruited 30 fewer players than us. Truly think about that for a second. That's a huge hit to depth, from an experience and from a bodies stand point. Again look at Nebraska for comparison. Imagine not having 10 extra bodies each year. That's essentially one fewer guy at 10 of 11 offensive positions, for example. So if your starter goes down, you're looking at a second stringer with no experienced player behind him. Most of our third stringers have seen little to no action since being at Nebraska, and that's the kind of guy they'll have on reserve.

And to go along with that, the best teams have great players that push each other in practice and compete with one another. One fewer guy to compete against means that was one less guy to push your players.

As far as your greyshirt question, I have absolutely no idea. However I'm sure the NCAA has done this enough to know possible loop holes, and even if they didn't USC is not in a position to try and take advantage of the NCAA right now. If you're a kid and your mother grounds you for three years, would you really try to push your luck knowing your mom is watching your every move and will punish you worse if you get out of line, even once? They cheated once and got b-slapped. I don't think they're going to try and cheat again the next couple of years. The NCAA is watching them like a hawk.

Overall, they've been stripped of 30 scholarship offers and are not allowed to go over the 75 scholarship player limit. That's really the only way to explain it.

 

[Scarlet Overkill]

Ok, thanks. I guess the 'new math' screwed me up. I was confused how 30 missing scholarships equated to 10 fewer scholarship players on the roster.

 

[bhamHusker]

Like Knap said, it's way too early to use USC as a comparison because the real impact of the scholarship restrictions has not really hit them yet. The better comparison is what happened to Alabama in 2002 following the Albert Means pay for play scandal. Alabama, like tOSU or USC is a historically important major program. Unlike, tOSU, they had already been down for a few years, but that also meant they were in the position of having to replace the head coach, as the Buckeyes are now. They got hit with 5 years of probation, a 2 year ban on post-season play and 21 scholarship recuction over 3 years. Because of the sanctions, attracting and retaining a top shelf head coach was difficult/impossible. They went through three coaches in 2 years: Dennis Franchione, Mike Price (who never coached a game because he got fired after his first spring practice) and then Mike Shula. Recruiting, already damaged by the scholarship reductions, fared even worse due to the coaching turmoil. It was years before they were able to get things steady and headed in the right direction, in large part because they stepped up and hired a big name coach with Nick Saban.

Alabama's plight may be the best predictor of what's to come for the Buckeyes. *IF* tOSU can attract a quality coach willing to weather the sanctions and rebuild the program, they may be able to recover relatively quickly. If they have to settle for a mediocre coaching staff, this could haunt them for the better part of a decade. Make no mistake, though, they'll be down for at least a few years regardless.

 

[MichiganMan]

Ohio State is in a much worse situation, and it's not even close. They're facing significant NCAA sanctions including loss of scholarships and post-season bans. All we did was buy out a sucky coach. They're definitely worse off than we were.

in my mind the NCAA is going easy on them. I would give them a modern day death penalty SMU style

 

[walksalone]

Nebraska Death Penalty was in 2004 but, then that was self inflicted. chuckleshuffle

yeah, Steve Pederson

 

[Creed]

in my mind the NCAA is going easy on them. I would give them a modern day death penalty SMU style

The death penalty is for repeated violations. SMU was caught repeatedly paying players, which is a serious violation. Correct me if I am wrong, but the first violation for OSU was the selling of memorabilia by players - a very minor violation. Same thing happen to AJ Green with Georgia last year and he got a 4 game suspension. The OSU players are suspended 5 games (I am not sure if this is OSU suspension or NCAA levied suspension). The second matter is Tressel's non-disclosure & lying, which is far more serious. Dez Bryan lied to the NCAA and was suspended for the remainder (8-9 games) of the season. Tressel has been terminated. So there is precedent for similar violations. If you stop here, the OSU comes out relatively clean.

I believe the NCAA is under pressure not to be soft as it was with the Cam Newton situation and the OSU Surgar Bowl debacle. It was harshly criticized for its handling of these matters. The NCAA will put on a full court press and may easily conclude that there are institutional compliance deficiencies at OSU. In that case, I see scholarship losses, bowl bans and probation.

As a result OSU will go overboard with compliance controls which no decent coach (Urban Meyer, Stoops) will want any part of. They don't want to be handcuffed and their coaching reputation tarnished. OSU will be an average team like in the late 80s-early 90s when 8-4 & 7-5 records were the norm.

 

[Hujan]

Before you can answer this, you must analyze what sort of sanctions Ohio State is looking at. The best possible example is USC.

USC

Alleged Infraction: After a four-year investigation (the longest in NCAA history) a single player was found to have received a single vehicle of approximately $20,000 value. That same player's family was permitted to live rent-free in a modest San Diego home for a year, for an approximate value of $54,000. The benefits were paid by agents who were intending to seduce that player into leaving USC before graduation in order to declare for the NFL draft. The school was alleged to have a compliance program that was "insufficient" and therefore "should have known" about the aforementioned the player's receipt of extra benefits.

Sanctions:

1. Two-year bowl ban
   
2. A loss of 10 scholarships per year for three years
   
3. A 75-man roster limit for three years, to take effect the first year after the last year of scholarship reductions
   
4. A policy in which current juniors and seniors may transfer to any other FBS program without losing a year of eligibility
   
5. The school has been ordered to remove all references to, or images of, said player on its campus or literature, and forever refrain from any association or contact with that player
   
6. Vacating wins from 2005 (including the national championship for the 2004 season)
   

Ohio State

Alleged Infraction: With no formal NCAA investigation, at least two dozen players over a span of several years are implicated in a scheme in which they received numerous benefits, including multiple cars, jewelry, and tattoos. The players reportedly received the benefits not in exchange for their prospective NFL carriers, but as a result of their status as college athletes. The benefits were also indirectly conferred by the school insofar as the players sold valuable items that had been supplied to them by the school. Most importantly, the head football coach knew about the infractions for a significant period of time, yet failed to disclose the same to school officials or the NCAA, and in fact lied to both regarding how long he possessed this information.

Sanctions: Thus far, only self-imposed sanctions that consist of a 5-game suspension for the 5 athletes known to be involved in scheme in which valuable items were exchanged for tattoos, and a 5-game suspension for the head coach.

* * *

In my view, the Ohio State situation is far worse that what USC was accused of. The only real positive difference for Ohio State is that they have basically admitted fault and Jim Tressel fell on the sword (after being caught red-handed, of course). I am sure this will dampen the NCAA's sanctions a tad.

Another positive difference for Ohio State might also be the fact that the NCAA's treatment of USC was, by any objective measure, one of the most disproportionate and biased investigations in history. The NCAA was out for blood. Whether this was the product of a Midwestern and SEC bias against the West Coast in general and USC in particular, or simply an opportunity to take down a program that had been the tops of college football for too long, is not entirely clear.

 

[Enhance]

Good point and post, Hujan.

 

[Creed]

Alleged Infraction: After a four-year investigation (the longest in NCAA history) a single player was found to have received a single vehicle of approximately $20,000 value. That same player's family was permitted to live rent-free in a modest San Diego home for a year, for an approximate value of $54,000. The benefits were paid by agents who were intending to seduce that player into leaving USC before graduation in order to declare for the NFL draft. The school was alleged to have a compliance program that was "insufficient" and therefore "should have known" about the aforementioned the player's receipt of extra benefits.

Ohio State

Alleged Infraction: With no formal NCAA investigation, at least two dozen players over a span of several years are implicated in a scheme in which they received numerous benefits, including multiple cars, jewelry, and tattoos. The players reportedly received the benefits not in exchange for their prospective NFL carriers, but as a result of their status as college athletes. The benefits were also indirectly conferred by the school insofar as the players sold valuable items that had been supplied to them by the school. Most importantly, the head football coach knew about the infractions for a significant period of time, yet failed to disclose the same to school officials or the NCAA, and in fact lied to both regarding how long he possessed this information.

USC - $20K vehicle plus $54K rent vs OSU - free tatoos (very minor value) and lying to the NCAA. The cases are not similar. There were serious dollars involved at USC. OSU is more comparable to AJ Green selling his jersey and Dez Bryant lying to the NCAA except in OSU's case it was the head coach.

The whole car thing at OSU is yet to be settled and there are conflicting reports on what is true.

 

[knapplc]

USC - $20K vehicle plus $54K rent vs OSU - free tatoos (very minor value) and lying to the NCAA. The cases are not similar. There were serious dollars involved at USC. OSU is more comparable to AJ Green selling his jersey and Dez Bryant lying to the NCAA except in OSU's case it was the head coach.

The whole car thing at OSU is yet to be settled and there are conflicting reports on what is true.

This is the biggest violation of everything that happened. A deliberate attempt to cover this up by the coach involved is going to raise the ire of the NCAA more than anything else.

 

[skersfan]

I have to agree with Hujan, there is nothing even remotely close to what SC did, not to mention SC fought them every step of the way, tried to cover up with coaches not telling the truth after the infractions were discussed with investigators. Tressel told one lie, he did not know of any wrong doings. That is about it as I see it.

Tressel falling on his sword will lessen the sanctions is my guess. And again I think it was about protecting his players, who did stupid things. Getting a tatoo, stealing a house for a year hardly compares. Not to mention Lienarts little deal with daddy paying for a upscale apartment and other players living in it.

The horse is out of the barn, close the door but no reason to slam it.

We have a lot of kids sporting fancy tats all over their bodies, supposedly starving on scholarship money but can afford ten thousdand dollar full sleves, not likely. Those living in glass houses should dress in the basement, and not answer when the NCAA comes calling.