Malaysia Airlines 777 Down in Ukraine

[Creighton Duke]

"Some rebels," who have been openly supported by Russia and backed by the Russian military to varying extents, oh, just happened across some Russian anti-aircraft missiles. Lying in a ditch somewhere I suppose. And shot down a civilian plane. Followed by those comments from Putin. That's worthy of an eyebrow raise, at the very least.

Sure, I get all of that (don't necessarily but into it, but that's not the point), but, like I asked, what is Vlad Putin supposed to say?

Maybe he could spread that rumor about the rebels. Heck, maybe he started the rumor.

I guess that is....possible...but, humor me for a second; what would Vlad Putin and Russia have to gain from shooting down a commercial plane?

 

[Hooked on Huskers]

“Obviously, the state over whose territory it happened bears responsibility for this terrible tragedy,” Putin said as cited by Itar-Tass.

“This tragedy would not have happened if there was peace on this land, if military action in the southeast of Ukraine had not been resumed,” he believes.

Holy sh#t, Mr. Putin

What is your point here? Do I even want to know?

Here, let’s see if I can help you out: A civilian airliner was shot down over the Ukraine near the Russian border, apparently by a Russian Buk surface-to-air missile. In response, Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, said “[o]bviously, the state over whose territory it happened bears responsibility for this terrible tragedy,” and “[t]his tragedy would not have happened if there was peace on this land, if military action in the southeast of Ukraine had not been resumed.” Most people would think this is not an appropriate response to make after your military kills 295 passengers on a civilian airliner[SIZE=11pt]—[/SIZE]regardless of where it happens. Is Tschu’s post clear to you now, or will further explanation be necessary?

Commercial airline routing in the middle of war zone? I don't get it. A week ago, military AN-26 cargo plane was shot down in roughly the same area (SAM). Probably the same radar set. Or else 17 years old enlisted guy accidentally hit the wrong launch button ........ opps !

It reminds me of Iran Air Flight 655 disaster.

 

[NUance]

"Some rebels," who have been openly supported by Russia and backed by the Russian military to varying extents, oh, just happened across some Russian anti-aircraft missiles. Lying in a ditch somewhere I suppose. And shot down a civilian plane. Followed by those comments from Putin. That's worthy of an eyebrow raise, at the very least.

Sure, I get all of that (don't necessarily but into it, but that's not the point), but, like I asked, what is Vlad Putin supposed to say?

Maybe he could spread that rumor about the rebels. Heck, maybe he started the rumor.

I guess that is....possible...but, humor me for a second; what would Vlad Putin and Russia have to gain from shooting down a commercial plane?

Who said Russia had anything to gain? I suspect it was sheer incompetence. Perhaps the person locking on the target should know the difference between a military supply plane and a commercial airliner.

 

[tschu]

I don't think that anyone thinks that Russia themselves shot down the plane, and if it was them, it certainly was not on purpose. (barring some ridiculous bluffy metagame that would basically never happen.) But if they enabled the group that did and then just kind of turn and flip the world the bird afterwards, it's not a good look.

 

[Creighton Duke]

"Some rebels," who have been openly supported by Russia and backed by the Russian military to varying extents, oh, just happened across some Russian anti-aircraft missiles. Lying in a ditch somewhere I suppose. And shot down a civilian plane. Followed by those comments from Putin. That's worthy of an eyebrow raise, at the very least.

Sure, I get all of that (don't necessarily but into it, but that's not the point), but, like I asked, what is Vlad Putin supposed to say?

Maybe he could spread that rumor about the rebels. Heck, maybe he started the rumor.

I guess that is....possible...but, humor me for a second; what would Vlad Putin and Russia have to gain from shooting down a commercial plane?

Who said Russia had anything to gain? I suspect it was sheer incompetence. Perhaps the person locking on the target should know the difference between a military supply plane and a commercial airliner.

So we can suspend disbelief that the involved soldiers may not be the most elite of weapons handlers....but we can't suspend disbelief that rebels may have been involved? Hmmmm...

 

[NUance]

So we can suspend disbelief that the involved soldiers may not be the most elite of weapons handlers....but we can't suspend disbelief that rebels may have been involved? Hmmmm...

I dunno. Maybe. That's why I asked for a Link above. It was probably either Russian soldiers or Pro-Russian rebels operating with Russian supplied surface-to-air missiles. Does it make a difference?

 

[Creighton Duke]

I don't think that anyone thinks that Russia themselves shot down the plane, and if it was them, it certainly was not on purpose. (barring some ridiculous bluffy metagame that would basically never happen.) But if they enabled the group that did and then just kind of turn and flip the world the bird afterwards, it's not a good look.

Herein lies the problem. Eastern and Western viewpoints on what constitutes a "good look" are completely different.

 

[Creighton Duke]

So we can suspend disbelief that the involved soldiers may not be the most elite of weapons handlers....but we can't suspend disbelief that rebels may have been involved? Hmmmm...

I dunno. Maybe. That's why I asked for a Link above. It was probably either Russian soldiers or Pro-Russian rebels operating with Russian supplied surface-to-air missiles. Does it make a difference?

There is a difference between "Russian supplied" and the rebels getting their hands on the weapons. I also wouldn't rule out false flags.

 

[NUance]

So we can suspend disbelief that the involved soldiers may not be the most elite of weapons handlers....but we can't suspend disbelief that rebels may have been involved? Hmmmm...

I dunno. Maybe. That's why I asked for a Link above. It was probably either Russian soldiers or Pro-Russian rebels operating with Russian supplied surface-to-air missiles. Does it make a difference?

There is a difference between "Russian supplied" and the rebels getting their hands on the weapons. I also wouldn't rule out false flags.

Oh yeah, the old "found it in the ditch" theory. I believe that comment was made in jest. But, whatever.

 

[Hooked on Huskers]

"Some rebels," who have been openly supported by Russia and backed by the Russian military to varying extents, oh, just happened across some Russian anti-aircraft missiles. Lying in a ditch somewhere I suppose. And shot down a civilian plane. Followed by those comments from Putin. That's worthy of an eyebrow raise, at the very least.

Sure, I get all of that (don't necessarily but into it, but that's not the point), but, like I asked, what is Vlad Putin supposed to say?

Maybe he could spread that rumor about the rebels. Heck, maybe he started the rumor.

I guess that is....possible...but, humor me for a second; what would Vlad Putin and Russia have to gain from shooting down a commercial plane?

Who said Russia had anything to gain? I suspect it was sheer incompetence. Perhaps the person locking on the target should know the difference between a military supply plane and a commercial airliner.

Radar echo was no difference between commercial and military plane (and geese flocks too). And SAM operator(s) was only a raw radar signature thus undetected to reach beacon squawk signal (ID). Only ATC radar is capable to read ID (squawk).

 

[darkhorse85]

So we can suspend disbelief that the involved soldiers may not be the most elite of weapons handlers....but we can't suspend disbelief that rebels may have been involved? Hmmmm...

I dunno. Maybe. That's why I asked for a Link above. It was probably either Russian soldiers or Pro-Russian rebels operating with Russian supplied surface-to-air missiles. Does it make a difference?

There is a difference between "Russian supplied" and the rebels getting their hands on the weapons. I also wouldn't rule out false flags.

Oh yeah, the old "found it in the ditch" theory. I believe that comment was made in jest. But, whatever.

You do realize that the Ukranian Military had the the Buk missile systems in their arsenal before this whole mess started, right? Just about all former Soviet countries have these still. Don't you think it's probable that the rebels came across the missiles that were already in Ukraine? And do you think it's also probable that at least one of those rebels was in the Ukranian military and trained with these missiles? If anyone thinks that Russia supplied these weapons directly needs to get that out of their head right now. They aren't that stupid. That being said I don't think theor hands are squeaky clean either.

 

[knapplc]

There's enough blame to go around here.

Blame the airline, or the pilot, or whomever was responsible for flying through that area. I don't care if other airlines do it (they're equally stupid), as a matter of simple common sense you should not be flying civilian airliners through a war zone, or a "hot" zone, or whatever the hip term the kids are calling it these days.

Blame the Russians, for destabilizing the region, supplying arms and military backing to the "rebels," and for basically thumbing their nose at the world's outcry. Had Russia not gotten all grabby over the Crimea, this plane lands safely at its destination.

Blame Vladimir Putin specifically, a modern-day wannabe dictator with more bravado than brains. Invading the Crimea was his idea.

Blame the insurgent leader who posted about it on VK. Maybe take a second to figure out what you actually shot down before going to the webz to boast about your great conquest, genius. Kinda takes away the difficulty of the investigation when you tell us you're the one who shot the plane down.

 

[Creighton Duke]

There's enough blame to go around here.

Blame the airline, or the pilot, or whomever was responsible for flying through that area. I don't care if other airlines do it (they're equally stupid), as a matter of simple common sense you should not be flying civilian airliners through a war zone, or a "hot" zone, or whatever the hip term the kids are calling it these days.

Blame the Russians, for destabilizing the region, supplying arms and military backing to the "rebels," and for basically thumbing their nose at the world's outcry. Had Russia not gotten all grabby over the Crimea, this plane lands safely at its destination.

Blame Vladimir Putin specifically, a modern-day wannabe dictator with more bravado than brains. Invading the Crimea was his idea.

Blame the insurgent leader who posted about it on VK. Maybe take a second to figure out what you actually shot down before going to the webz to boast about your great conquest, genius. Kinda takes away the difficulty of the investigation when you tell us you're the one who shot the plane down.

I question the validity of these statements.

 

[Creighton Duke]

Interesting occurrence: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace

Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.

So perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

I suggest actually opening the link, btw, as the visuals are important.

 

[knapplc]

CD - have you vetted the source of that graphic? Who is Vagelis Karmiros? Why is he to be trusted?