Political DBag Hall of Fame

[Enhance]

I agree with much of what you said @ZRod but had a few thoughts.

I'd say P&R is fairly centrist, but decidedly anti-Trump. BRB, JJ, and TG are major contributors who are on the right of a true political spectrum, and oppose the orange doofus. To call that opposition left leaning is another symptom of a greater problem; the delusion of the MAGA movement, which is without a doubt extreme far right and this time around truly fascist.

To be fair, it’s not just conservatives who call the P&R forum liberal or left-leaning. It seems most of our liberally minded posters think it is, as well. I think it does, but a lot of that comes from perception rather than a strict assessment of where people actually stand. The most active and vocal participants tend to be strongly anti-Trump and anti-Republican, which naturally creates a sense of hefty liberalism. If you ask me, it's probably closer to centrist with a slight left tilt, but the Trump dislike causes a huge schism.
 

I can appreciate the feeling of being mobbed, but when you say or support stupid things you should expect to be told your wrong and why. A person interested in self growth and learning would revaluate their position, and come away with the logical conclusion that the further support of Trump is untenable. They would be applauded by most here for being open to changing their mind.

The biggest challenge with P&R is that each side claims the other is self-absorbed and unwilling to evaluate opposing viewpoints. Both sides are convinced the other is wrong, and it seems almost impossible for either side to see where the other is coming from. Most people accuse others of precisely the same inability to consider a different perspectives, so no one ends up budging an inch.

 

[knapplc]

Both sides

Everybody drink! :wasted

 

[ZRod]

I agree with much of what you said @ZRod but had a few thoughts.

To be fair, it’s not just conservatives who call the P&R forum liberal or left-leaning. It seems most of our liberally minded posters think it is, as well. I think it does, but a lot of that comes from perception rather than a strict assessment of where people actually stand. The most active and vocal participants tend to be strongly anti-Trump and anti-Republican, which naturally creates a sense of hefty liberalism. If you ask me, it's probably closer to centrist with a slight left tilt, but the Trump dislike causes a huge schism.

This I can agree with.

The biggest challenge with P&R is that each side claims the other is self-absorbed and unwilling to evaluate opposing viewpoints. Both sides are convinced the other is wrong, and it seems almost impossible for either side to see where the other is coming from. Most people accuse others of precisely the same inability to consider a different perspectives, so no one ends up budging an inch.

This, isn't appropriate anymore, and doesn't help in true discussion. Both sides are not the same. The people who engage with maga supporters and oppose their views have, quite often, been on the far right of the spectrum at one time. They openly acknowledged this and discussed how they came about a different perspective. That is vastly different than what maga does. 

Also, there are people like myself who have always been left of center, but can freely admit there were things we didn't like about Obama, we did not want Hillary or Kamala as a candidate because of their policies (not their gender or ethnicity), and that Biden despite doing an ok job shouldn't have ran either of the last 2 times and failed to address major social issues. I can also admit that Trump has done some things right in holding China's feet to the fire, and renegotiating NAFTA. I have never seen maga supporter come anywhere close to that level of reflection.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I'd say P&R is fairly centrist, but decidedly anti-Trump. BRB, JJ, and TG are major contributors who are on the right of a true political spectrum, and oppose the orange doofus. To call that opposition left leaning is another symptom of a greater problem; the delusion of the MAGA movement, which is without a doubt extreme far right and this time around truly fascist.

Nobody wants to have to justify their own s#!tty choices is the real answer as to why they don't participate. They'd rather embrace tribalism and burn it all down to see their team win rather than have to think about the actual consequences of their decisions and who they hurt (themselves and their loved ones). I can appreciate the feeling of being mobbed, but when you say or support stupid things you should expect to be told your wrong and why. A person interested in self growth and learning would revaluate their position, and come away with the logical conclusion that the further support of Trump is untenable. They would be applauded by most here for being open to changing their mind.

Pretty sure we've had a couple of those: posters who said they voted for Trump at least once before realizing what a fraud and danger he was. Don't know how much credit HB can take, but I don't think you come to that conclusion unless you open yourself to broader news sources. 

We've also had some interesting personal stories of people turning away from Christianity. They were handled very respectfully by the still faithful. 

I haven't yet seen the corollary: someone who was suspicious of Trump in the beginning, but warmed to him over the years. And yet....2024 suggests there may have been millions of them.

So Trump Voter Safe Space is only a trap if you think people should appreciate your honesty without questioning you. We have lots of questions. And frankly, you have the leverage. Your man won going away, picked up ground in virtually every county and demographic, and is executing his vision with incredible speed and ambition. 

Why wouldn't you say, "yep, I'm in the American majority that voted for Trump and I'm thrilled to watch his agenda unfurl. I totally get why it pisses liberals off, but there we are."  Or any variant from there, including the possibility that you never loved Trump but simply found him preferable to Kamala Harris.

I think we can still reserve a closet of douchebaggery for people who say they didn't vote for Donald Trump but somehow find a way to defend and celebrate most of what he's doing.  

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

This, isn't appropriate anymore, and doesn't help in true discussion. Both sides are not the same. The people who engage with maga supporters and oppose their views have, quite often, been on the far right of the spectrum at one time. They openly acknowledged this and discussed how they came about a different perspective. That is vastly different than what maga does. 

Also, there are people like myself who have always been left of center, but can freely admit there were things we didn't like about Obama, we did not want Hillary or Kamala as a candidate because of their policies (not their gender or ethnicity), and that Biden despite doing an ok job shouldn't have ran either of the last 2 times and failed to address major social issues. I can also admit that Trump has done some things right in holding China's feet to the fire, and renegotiating NAFTA. I have never seen maga supporter come anywhere close to that level of reflection.

This. Most good and decent people would say there are two sides to every story, but there is no kindness or integrity in pretending both sides are inherently equal. Things have really gone off the rails in terms of facts and accuracy. 

These days we're supposed to act like there are two sides to science: the side being promoted by the scientists, and the side being promoted by people who are just making s#!t up. Multiply that by every issue facing us. There is an agenda to make Americans less-informed for ancient and obvious reasons. 

 

[JJ Husker]

I'd say P&R is fairly centrist, but decidedly anti-Trump. BRB, JJ, and TG are major contributors who are on the right of a true political spectrum, and oppose the orange doofus. To call that opposition left leaning is another symptom of a greater problem; the delusion of the MAGA movement, which is without a doubt extreme far right and this time around truly fascist.

Nobody wants to have to justify their own s#!tty choices is the real answer as to why they don't participate. They'd rather embrace tribalism and burn it all down to see their team win rather than have to think about the actual consequences of their decisions and who they hurt (themselves and their loved ones). I can appreciate the feeling of being mobbed, but when you say or support stupid things you should expect to be told your wrong and why. A person interested in self growth and learning would revaluate their position, and come away with the logical conclusion that the further support of Trump is untenable. They would be applauded by most here for being open to changing their mind.

Pretty much this.

I get a huge kick out of it when posters act like I’m some far left whacko. I’ve mellowed slightly on the social issues over the years but I’m still pretty conservative fiscally and with the law. I’d say right of center with a bit of libertarian thrown in. But no, I didn’t go off the far right cliff on the GOP bus and yes, I do hate Trump, and people like him, with a certain level of passion.

The problem I have with even entertaining their reasoning is I know they’re wrong and will have unsatisfactory rationale or they’ll simply lie about it when they get cornered into trying to justify it. It would be extremely nice to “understand” them but when you know they’re wrong and are in an indefensible position on so many issues, really, what’s the point of even trying? So I guess my default is, f#&% ‘em, hope they figure it out eventually and preferably in a painful way. I’m all out of s#!ts to give about anyone who still supports anything about Trump or MAGA or today’s GOP.

And I’ll add, there are 1 or 2 policy positions I can sort of agree with Trump. I do think the border needs to be secured. I don’t have a problem with rounding up and deporting illegal alien criminals. I don’t have a problem with cutting waste and fraud from our government. BUT I have a huge problem with how they are going about those things currently. It doesn’t need to be done in an uncaring, illegal, autocratic, fascist manner. Of course the things I disagree with them on is an endless list of stupid and dangerous and un-American things. About the best thing I can imagine and hope for is that AF1 crashes and burns with Trump, Vance, Johnson, and the whole cabinet on board. I wouldn’t miss any one of them for a nanosecond and this country would be much better off without them.

 

[Enhance]

To be clear, I didn't claim (or at least, didn't intend to claim) "both sides" are actually equal, the same, or equitably culpable for anything.

I'm saying both sides view one another nearly identically, albeit from different perspectives. The MAGA/right so manny of you regularly condemn are equally convinced of the your arrogance and incapability for self-reflection. And frankly, there is a lot of arrogance and lack of self-reflection regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum.

The point is - it doesn't really matter if you think they're fundamentally wrong about everything or not, whether you think they're actually the same or not, because to them you just are as problematic as they are to you. We can posture all day about how wrong they are but it doesn't really change anything. Treating them like comprehensibly incapable morons who are beneath us, and provoking them into bad faith discussions, is exactly why nobody ever budges an inch on anything.

 

[JJ Husker]

We can posture all day about how wrong they are but it doesn't really change anything. Treating them like comprehensibly incapable morons who are beneath us, and provoking them into bad faith discussions, is exactly why nobody ever budges an inch on anything.

I guess we could pretend they are capable morons. Half the assumption would be correct that way. 

Sorry, I couldn’t resist  :lol:

BTW, I agree with the rest of your post. IMO, what Guy is requesting or hoping for is unobtainable. I see no multiverse where the Trump supporters contribute something that makes you think, oh yeah, I haven’t considered that POV before. I wish I was more eloquent but wishing somebody would make sense of it is a fools errand. The indefensible cannot be defended.
 

And sure, in some anecdotal cases, people may have legitimate reasons for ending up on the MAGA side of things. But I don’t make the mistake of thinking they can make it make sense beyond some gripe like they lost their job due to a Biden policy or they had a loved one killed by an illegal alien or anything else that could’ve pushed them to that side. They still would be unable to defend this s#!tshow administration in any coherent fashion. I don’t pretend to want them to explain it because I know the explanation will be lacking.

 

[Archy1221]

They still would be unable to defend this s#!tshow administration in any coherent fashion. I don’t pretend to want them to explain it because I know the explanation will be lacking

This is the ultimate harumpfff, bury your head in the sand argument.  “Hey I don’t want to hear what any of them have to say on why they voted Trump or support the majority of what his Admin is trying to accomplish.  I already know (before any words are even said or written btw) that it’s all gonna be bulls#!t”

Combine that with the notion of someone trying to say they are right leaning policy wise on many to most things, but make a post saying they “I’m all out of s#!ts to give about anyone who still supports anything about Trump or MAGA or today’s GOP.”. 
 

Now one would think if you were a right leaning person, probably 70-80% at a minimum of what Trump Admin tries to do would fit into your political views.   But some people hate the man sooooooo much, they will go against their own political views simply because Trump likes it.   It’s a Cult of Personality in reverse.  
 

Or, what we saw the previous four years was people agreeing with Biden on things they certainly wouldn’t have in the past or just not caring at all about his failings in certain areas that a so called right leaning person would certainly not support all because it might hurt elections chances of Republicans who they would have in other years supported.  
 

And that’s fine, everyone has that right.   Just quit with the Cult of Personality BS because you are doing it in reverse out of pure spite and not rational thinking.  

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

To be clear, I didn't claim (or at least, didn't intend to claim) "both sides" are actually equal, the same, or equitably culpable for anything.

I'm saying both sides view one another nearly identically, albeit from different perspectives. The MAGA/right so manny of you regularly condemn are equally convinced of the your arrogance and incapability for self-reflection. And frankly, there is a lot of arrogance and lack of self-reflection regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum.

The point is - it doesn't really matter if you think they're fundamentally wrong about everything or not, whether you think they're actually the same or not, because to them you just are as problematic as they are to you. We can posture all day about how wrong they are but it doesn't really change anything. Treating them like comprehensibly incapable morons who are beneath us, and provoking them into bad faith discussions, is exactly why nobody ever budges an inch on anything.

Part of the problem is thinking you might get someone to budge through facts and evidence. The good faith discussions haven't gone that well, either. Neither has compromise. I've seen empathy and overlap among adversaries, but that has yet to move the needle. At least twice a year I agree with Archy. 

It's really difficult to ignore the hard shift to autocracy and the danger it brings to everything we've been taught is American. It's hugely judgmental to accuse millions of fellow citizens of being cult followers, but naive to ignore the evidence. I mean, history does us the favor of providing warning signs. But apparently we're rude for pointing them out.

I'm tired of pretending what's happening is normal, or that I should be careful not to insult the people making a whole lot of cruelty possible. It's not posturing. It's as real as s#!t can get. 

If you have a proposal for more enlightened discourse, I'm all ears. 

 

[knapplc]

The point is - it doesn't really matter if you think they're fundamentally wrong about everything or not, whether you think they're actually the same or not, because to them you just are as problematic as they are to you. We can posture all day about how wrong they are but it doesn't really change anything. Treating them like comprehensibly incapable morons who are beneath us, and provoking them into bad faith discussions, is exactly why nobody ever budges an inch on anything.

It matters when they're demonstrably wrong, and won't speak to reality. It matters when facts are presented and the goalposts are moved. It matters when that line of thinking leads America away from Democracy and toward fascism. We attempt to nobly engage in conversation with those people - you and Guy have famously both tried - and it results in the same thing. Lies, distortion, party talking points.

Providing facts is not "posturing," but that's the vibe I'm getting from this post. Just as, while you said it wasn't your intent, the post I responded to containing the "both sides" comment came across as exactly what you said it didn't mean.

P&R is the way it is because facts matter to a lot of people who post there - people who largely don't agree with each other. And there are posters who treat it like a playground, and there are posters for whom facts are irrelevant in the face of party loyalty.

Enabling the latter of those groups is why America is in the position we're in today.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

And that’s fine, everyone has that right.   Just quit with the Cult of Personality BS because you are doing it in reverse out of pure spite and not rational thinking.  

It's a Cult of Personality. Textbook version. Trump is a toxic narcissist. That's a diagnosis, not an opinion.  

And like most cults, the followers believe their leader is something he truly isn't.  

They will be writing about this moment in history for ages. I think it will be pretty one-sided. If rational thinking is the measure, I just don't see it aligning with Donald Trump. You don't either. That's why I still have hope for us. 

 

[Enhance]

Part of the problem is thinking you might get someone to budge through facts and evidence. The good faith discussions haven't gone that well, either. Neither has compromise. I've seen empathy and overlap among adversaries, but that has yet to move the needle. At least twice a year I agree with Archy. 

It's really difficult to ignore the hard shift to autocracy and the danger it brings to everything we've been taught is American. It's hugely judgmental to accuse millions of fellow citizens of being cult followers, but naive to ignore the evidence. I mean, history does us the favor of providing warning signs. But apparently we're rude for pointing them out.

I'm tired of pretending what's happening is normal, or that I should be careful not to insult the people making a whole lot of cruelty possible. It's not posturing. It's as real as s#!t can get. 

If you have a proposal for more enlightened discourse, I'm all ears. 

I hear what you're saying, and I don't disagree that the stakes are high. I'm not suggesting we pretend any of this is normal or excuse cruelty for the sake of civility. What I'm pointing out is that writing off millions of people as lost causes and approaching disagreements with provocation and scorn don't achieve anything productive. More importantly, it hasn't.

You say facts, empathy, and compromise haven't worked, so what's the alternative? Double down on condescension? Demonize? That's not a solution - it's surrendering to the same type of behavior you allegedly oppose. It's not naive to believe people can change slowly or incrementally, but it is naive to believe treating people with contempt will ever persuade them to reflect or rethink anything. I'm not saying we should coddle danger ideas, but instead stop pretending that shame or superiority are effective tools for change. They often aren't, particularly when groups of people believe one another are fundamentally guilty of the exact same things. 

I get that it feels more satisfying to throw up your hands and call it what it is. But if we truly believe in the values we claim to defend, things like free thought, democratic norms, reasoned debate, then shouldn’t we be the ones modeling that, even when it’s hard?

 

[JJ Husker]

This is the ultimate harumpfff, bury your head in the sand argument.  “Hey I don’t want to hear what any of them have to say on why they voted Trump or support the majority of what his Admin is trying to accomplish.  I already know (before any words are even said or written btw) that it’s all gonna be bulls#!t”

Combine that with the notion of someone trying to say they are right leaning policy wise on many to most things, but make a post saying they “I’m all out of s#!ts to give about anyone who still supports anything about Trump or MAGA or today’s GOP.”. 
 

Now one would think if you were a right leaning person, probably 70-80% at a minimum of what Trump Admin tries to do would fit into your political views.   But some people hate the man sooooooo much, they will go against their own political views simply because Trump likes it.   It’s a Cult of Personality in reverse.  
 

Or, what we saw the previous four years was people agreeing with Biden on things they certainly wouldn’t have in the past or just not caring at all about his failings in certain areas that a so called right leaning person would certainly not support all because it might hurt elections chances of Republicans who they would have in other years supported.  
 

And that’s fine, everyone has that right.   Just quit with the Cult of Personality BS because you are doing it in reverse out of pure spite and not rational thinking.  

I’ll say it again to agree with you, yes, I hate Trump. But some of what he says he wants to do (policy) I don’t have a problem with from the 30,000 foot view. That is the conservative side of which you speak. However, I am not on board at all with what he is actually doing.

Tariffs to level the playing field? Fine….where it needs to be leveled and makes sense. Heck I’ll even say fine for using at as leverage to gain some other concession, as long as the upside outweighs the downside. But doing it to an extent that hurts the people of your own country or to help the oligarchs profit at our expense or in a totally non-sensible or vindictive fashion, yeah, I draw a line there.

I could go on and on, issue by issue, and begin on each one in some form of agreement….and then his actions, his words, his manner of achieving the claimed result crosses my line. Some immediately and some further down the line. Why side with Putin? Why alienate NATO allies? Why go off on Canada and Greenland? Why setup Zelensky and arrange that televised farce? Why fire everyone and dismantle departments haphazardly before you know who or what the problem is exactly? Why involve the richest man in the world who has obvious conflicts of interest? I could go on and on and on. I see absolutely no reason any of this should appeal to a person that is simply conservative or right leaning. Common sense tells me there must be other likely illicit or unsavory reasons people find this stuff appealing or even just tolerable. So don’t pretend to act like I’m the one that has gone off the reservation.
 

So yes, I am out of f#&%s to give for anyone that defends or enables it. It’s out of control and it’s wrong and anyone who can’t see that, admit that, is part of the  problem whether or not they claim to have voted for it. Defending it now is no different than having voted for it. In fact it is worse now because we can plainly see how wrong and un-American it all truly is. It’s no longer a probability, it’s all too glaringly obvious and real.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I get that it feels more satisfying to throw up your hands and call it what it is. But if we truly believe in the values we claim to defend, things like free thought, democratic norms, reasoned debate, then shouldn’t we be the ones modeling that, even when it’s hard?

Well for starters, absolutely none of this is satisfying. That's the point. Modeling the behavior we'd like to see in others? Absolutely. When that fails to work, gets mocked as weakness, and your facts are replaced by disinformation, you start to feel less empathic and forgiving. 

We don't see this as much in HuskerBoard P&R where the ratio leans left, but I think a lot of us bring this frustration from the outside world of MAGA friends, family, colleagues, social media and news sources. 

Archy is AOC compared to other posters I've debated in other forums, where I've definitely tasted the other side of the ratio. But at the end of the day they voted for the same person at least twice, and have learned to make excuses for the inexcusable.