Extremism and the Internet

[strigori]

 

So anybody that doesn't agree should be forced to move. Now that sounds like freedom to me!!

 

Let me turn that same logic on you. Let's say that you live in an A/C system. You work for a company that you do not agree with. What are your options? Well...you can attempt to change your company...or you can leave. Please explain how that is different.

 

The difference is that leaving the country is very costly and a person could leave a company at little to no cost.

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2038318/posts

 

A lot of people probably can't understand why someone would voluntarily give up American citizenship -- but if someone wanted to do that, they'd now incur financial penalties for it.

 

Congress just passed a new law that will stop your capital -- or at least a good portion of it -- at the border, should you decide not to be a U.S. citizen anymore. Is it, perhaps, in preparation for the possibility that Americans might rebel at the debt and taxes incurred by their government by leaving for lower-tax locales?

 

You probably didn't notice this little provision inserted into the Heroes Act of 2008, passed by Congress on June 17. The headlines in the press release about the law were about the increased benefits for veterans and families of deceased military.

 

But Richard Kohan of Price WaterhouseCoopers drew my attention to one section of the act, which states that anyone voluntarily giving up his or her citizenship will be taxed on all of his assets as if he or she had sold them -- paying capital gains on assets that have increased in value, even though they have not been sold.

 

That's right. While everyone in the media is focused on keeping aliens out of America, Congress has voted to lock its citizens - or at least a good portion of their assets -- into America! Maybe they're thinking that patriotism won't be enough to keep the smart money from recognizing the coming increases in the tax burden.

 

Alarm-ism at it's finest. Here's a quick way around that author's supposedly impervious financial barrier: transfer your money out of the country before you renounce your citizenship. Problem solved, with no taxes paid.

 

No matter where people go, they will have to pay taxes and accept a loss of freedoms. Your analogy still doesn't work because anyone who moves will be going somewhere where they are forced to obey the government.

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

[hosker]

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

 

 

get over it? WTF?!?!?!?!!?!? WTF?!!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

 

are you sayin we should all just accept being oppressed? no mater the degree of oppression, since we'll always be oppressed no matter where we go, we should just accept it? im sorry, but that goes against EVERYTHING i believe in. why the f#*k would i not want to better my life, no matter how much better it is than someone else's?

 

so we shouldn't "complain" to try to be less oppressed? idk what country your living in, but in my country, we have a 1st amendment for that. and i plan on using it.

[sarge87]

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

 

 

get over it? WTF?!?!?!?!!?!? WTF?!!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

 

are you sayin we should all just accept being oppressed? no mater the degree of oppression, since we'll always be oppressed no matter where we go, we should just accept it? im sorry, but that goes against EVERYTHING i believe in. why the f#*k would i not want to better my life, no matter how much better it is than someone else's?

 

so we shouldn't "complain" to try to be less oppressed? idk what country your living in, but in my country, we have a 1st amendment for that. and i plan on using it.

[huskerjack23]

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

 

 

get over it? WTF?!?!?!?!!?!? WTF?!!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

 

are you sayin we should all just accept being oppressed? no mater the degree of oppression, since we'll always be oppressed no matter where we go, we should just accept it? im sorry, but that goes against EVERYTHING i believe in. why the f#*k would i not want to better my life, no matter how much better it is than someone else's?

 

so we shouldn't "complain" to try to be less oppressed? idk what country your living in, but in my country, we have a 1st amendment for that. and i plan on using it.

which makes this the best government we have. we have so many rights as americans, yet so many americans choose to live as fat and content slobs that don't question authority. it is a civic duty to be politically active and keep america the best it can be and defend these rights to the death. is it government doing that to us? partiallly. is it us? mostly.

 

socal will go to the ends of the earth with his false dilemma of government is evil and no government is good worldview and it will never convince me it's correct. but i'll go to the ends of the earth to defend his right to say that, (provided that we're in a war that actually makes some god damn sense)

[SOCALHUSKER]

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

 

 

get over it? WTF?!?!?!?!!?!? WTF?!!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

 

are you sayin we should all just accept being oppressed? no mater the degree of oppression, since we'll always be oppressed no matter where we go, we should just accept it? im sorry, but that goes against EVERYTHING i believe in. why the f#*k would i not want to better my life, no matter how much better it is than someone else's?

 

so we shouldn't "complain" to try to be less oppressed? idk what country your living in, but in my country, we have a 1st amendment for that. and i plan on using it.

which makes this the best government we have. we have so many rights as americans, yet so many americans choose to live as fat and content slobs that don't question authority. it is a civic duty to be politically active and keep america the best it can be and defend these rights to the death. is it government doing that to us? partiallly. is it us? mostly.

 

socal will go to the ends of the earth with his false dilemma of government is evil and no government is good worldview and it will never convince me it's correct. but i'll go to the ends of the earth to defend his right to say that, (provided that we're in a war that actually makes some god damn sense)

 

You still haven't proven how you come to your conclusion of false dilemna. Please, for the sake of all readers and myself, show some proof for your argument!!

[strigori]

And yet people continue to complain about it. No group of people can live together without forming a government. Death and taxes. Just pick where you think is least oppressive, and get over it.

 

 

get over it? WTF?!?!?!?!!?!? WTF?!!?!?!?!?!?!!

 

 

are you sayin we should all just accept being oppressed? no mater the degree of oppression, since we'll always be oppressed no matter where we go, we should just accept it? im sorry, but that goes against EVERYTHING i believe in. why the f#*k would i not want to better my life, no matter how much better it is than someone else's?

 

so we shouldn't "complain" to try to be less oppressed? idk what country your living in, but in my country, we have a 1st amendment for that. and i plan on using it.

There is a world of difference between 'using your first amendment' which you have somehow come to think I dont support. Read more carefully. There is a small group of people, that include yourself and socal, who believe that there is this magical fantasy world where people can live in peace and harmony without anything resembling a government. And are so deeply in this mindset that people can live without an organized government. And you people have this idea that if anyone puts rules on you then you are being 'oppressed.' This is what you need to 'get over.' You are living in the most free country in the world. And its not even close.

 

My point is this. There is no such thing as a group of people living together that do not have some form of rudimentary government. This is not even open for discussion. It is human nature, even mammalian nature. Dogs and wolves have pack hierarchy. Elephants have clear leaders. The point of a government is the good of the whole over the good of the one. There is no such things as total freedom. Living in civilization requires the acceptance of authority. And taxes are part of the price you pay for living in a civilization.

[huskerjack23]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

[SOCALHUSKER]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

[SOCALHUSKER]

 

There is a world of difference between 'using your first amendment' which you have somehow come to think I dont support. Read more carefully. There is a small group of people, that include yourself and socal, who believe that there is this magical fantasy world where people can live in peace and harmony without anything resembling a government. And are so deeply in this mindset that people can live without an organized government. And you people have this idea that if anyone puts rules on you then you are being 'oppressed.' This is what you need to 'get over.' You are living in the most free country in the world. And its not even close.

 

My point is this. There is no such thing as a group of people living together that do not have some form of rudimentary government This is not even open for discussion. It is human nature, even mammalian nature. Dogs and wolves have pack hierarchy. Elephants have clear leaders. The point of a government is the good of the whole over the good of the one. There is no such things as total freedom. Living in civilization requires the acceptance of authority. And taxes are part of the price you pay for living in a civilization.

 

If that's the point of government then why hasn't it done so? Also, how do you figure government makes society better?

 

Society consists of individuals, and only individuals. So, in order for society to get better the individuals which make up society must get better. Since individuals must give up rights, money or anything in order for government to come into existence and for government programs to function, how is that bettering the individual? How does someone get better, if that which makes them better is taken away? If anything, that's actually making the individual worse and therefore society worse.

 

What you call the "good of the whole" is actually an intent/idea/experiment to bring everyone to an equal level of poverty. Society can never get better if the individuals that make up society cannot get better, and that's why I can never agree with your ideas.

[hosker]

There is a world of difference between 'using your first amendment' which you have somehow come to think I dont support. Read more carefully.

 

yeah, sorry. i did kind of blow up.

 

There is a small group of people, that include yourself and socal, who believe that there is this magical fantasy world where people can live in peace and harmony without anything resembling a government. And are so deeply in this mindset that people can live without an organized government. And you people have this idea that if anyone puts rules on you then you are being 'oppressed.'This is what you need to 'get over.'

 

actually, im very much in favor of The Constitution(but not the current gov.).

 

however, the founding fathers suggested to lean towards anarchy/no gov. expansion, when we as a country come to those forks in the road where we can either expand gov. or leave it the same. so i take there advise and move forward.

 

i am not an anarchist, although if done with a small enough population, i think it could work.

 

You are living in the most free country in the world. And its not even close.

 

is that why we have more citizens in prison than any other county in the world? and its not even close.

 

My point is this. There is no such thing as a group of people living together that do not have some form of rudimentary government. This is not even open for discussion.

 

agreed, i just choose to leave it as rudimentary as possible.

 

There is no such things as total freedom. Living in civilization requires the acceptance of authority. And taxes are part of the price you pay for living in a civilization.

 

well, there is a such thing as total freedom... but we probably won't see it in our lifetime. i do think we should/could/will be more free than what we are now. personally i want all the freedoms i can have, and i certainly could use a few more, now.

[huskerjack23]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

it's like me saying everyone in colorado smells like weed. even though with overwhelming evidence that a lot of people in colorado smell like weed, they don't all smell like weed.

 

all government isn't bad. you equate taxes with stealing. not everybody does. you equate being a citizen of the government into being coerced into not being free. not everybody does. it's a false dilemma. your evil isn't everyone's evil. the world is made of grays, not black and whites.

 

you'd say we are all sheep. i'd like to submit to you that you are just as much a sheep by staying in the echo chamber of A/C and the free market and not thinking critically and examining the world as gray and not as black and white.

 

i'd like you to actually somehow concede to the fact that there are possibilites for government to do good and for private sector to do evil (coercion and what not).

 

you say that it's not possible. that's a false dilemma. the theory of infinity proves you wrong.

[SOCALHUSKER]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

it's like me saying everyone in colorado smells like weed. even though with overwhelming evidence that a lot of people in colorado smell like weed, they don't all smell like weed.

 

all government isn't bad. you equate taxes with stealing. not everybody does. you equate being a citizen of the government into being coerced into not being free. not everybody does. it's a false dilemma. your evil isn't everyone's evil. the world is made of grays, not black and whites.

 

you'd say we are all sheep. i'd like to submit to you that you are just as much a sheep by staying in the echo chamber of A/C and the free market and not thinking critically and examining the world as gray and not as black and white.

 

i'd like you to actually somehow concede to the fact that there are possibilites for government to do good and for private sector to do evil (coercion and what not).

 

you say that it's not possible. that's a false dilemma. the theory of infinity proves you wrong.

 

WHAT?????? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

What is your defintion of taxes, if it's not theft? What is it about someone else running your life that makes you free? What does government do that's good? Please tell me.

 

There is no gray in either of these examples, it's either right or wrong. Your arguments of "false dilemna" or now the "theory of infinity" are merely excuses for failing to rationally and logically decipher problems.

[strigori]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

it's like me saying everyone in colorado smells like weed. even though with overwhelming evidence that a lot of people in colorado smell like weed, they don't all smell like weed.

 

all government isn't bad. you equate taxes with stealing. not everybody does. you equate being a citizen of the government into being coerced into not being free. not everybody does. it's a false dilemma. your evil isn't everyone's evil. the world is made of grays, not black and whites.

 

you'd say we are all sheep. i'd like to submit to you that you are just as much a sheep by staying in the echo chamber of A/C and the free market and not thinking critically and examining the world as gray and not as black and white.

 

i'd like you to actually somehow concede to the fact that there are possibilites for government to do good and for private sector to do evil (coercion and what not).

 

you say that it's not possible. that's a false dilemma. the theory of infinity proves you wrong.

 

WHAT?????? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

What is your defintion of taxes, if it's not theft? What is it about someone else running your life that makes you free? What does government do that's good? Please tell me.

 

There is no gray in either of these examples, it's either right or wrong. Your arguments of "false dilemna" or now the "theory of infinity" are merely excuses for failing to rationally and logically decipher problems.

Taxes pay for things that hold a civilization together. Police, military, infrastructure and a host of other things that the people in that nation want.

How does the government 'run your life'? There are some laws, but by and large, the things that are against the law, are things I think are wrong to begin with. Most are rooted in dont murder, steal, or in general try to hurt or screw someone else over. The kind of pins you need to hold a civilization together.

The gov doesnt tell me what to eat, what to watch, who to date, who to marry, where to work, where to hang out, who my friends can be, force me to spend time around people I hate, when to go to bed, when to get up or what to wear. I dont see the gov intruding in my daily life at all.

 

Everything is gray there is so little 'black and white' in the world when you get down to it. And please, get off the soapbox about your 'logic and rational' being the only right one. With statements where you are throwing out all other arguments as being irrational or somehow not based on logic is really proving the point of the OP.

 

You mention the prison numbers, that is drug related mostly, and it is something that needs to change. But freedom goes farther than that. Are you aware the US is the ONLY country on earth without some form of board that can ban media? The US is the ONLY nation where free speech is guaranteed as law. There are countries out there that could arrest you for voicing the opinions you put out on this board. Anything short of making threats or child porn, and the worst thing you face is a rating like R, MA, XXX or what have you.

[carlfense]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

it's like me saying everyone in colorado smells like weed. even though with overwhelming evidence that a lot of people in colorado smell like weed, they don't all smell like weed.

 

all government isn't bad. you equate taxes with stealing. not everybody does. you equate being a citizen of the government into being coerced into not being free. not everybody does. it's a false dilemma. your evil isn't everyone's evil. the world is made of grays, not black and whites.

 

you'd say we are all sheep. i'd like to submit to you that you are just as much a sheep by staying in the echo chamber of A/C and the free market and not thinking critically and examining the world as gray and not as black and white.

 

i'd like you to actually somehow concede to the fact that there are possibilites for government to do good and for private sector to do evil (coercion and what not).

 

you say that it's not possible. that's a false dilemma. the theory of infinity proves you wrong.

 

WHAT?????? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

What is your defintion of taxes, if it's not theft? What is it about someone else running your life that makes you free? What does government do that's good? Please tell me.

 

There is no gray in either of these examples, it's either right or wrong. Your arguments of "false dilemna" or now the "theory of infinity" are merely excuses for failing to rationally and logically decipher problems.

Taxes pay for things that hold a civilization together. Police, military, infrastructure and a host of other things that the people in that nation want.

How does the government 'run your life'? There are some laws, but by and large, the things that are against the law, are things I think are wrong to begin with. Most are rooted in dont murder, steal, or in general try to hurt or screw someone else over. The kind of pins you need to hold a civilization together.

The gov doesnt tell me what to eat, what to watch, who to date, who to marry, where to work, where to hang out, who my friends can be, force me to spend time around people I hate, when to go to bed, when to get up or what to wear. I dont see the gov intruding in my daily life at all.

 

Everything is gray there is so little 'black and white' in the world when you get down to it. And please, get off the soapbox about your 'logic and rational' being the only right one. With statements where you are throwing out all other arguments as being irrational or somehow not based on logic is really proving the point of the OP.

 

You mention the prison numbers, that is drug related mostly, and it is something that needs to change. But freedom goes farther than that. Are you aware the US is the ONLY country on earth without some form of board that can ban media? The US is the ONLY nation where free speech is guaranteed as law. There are countries out there that could arrest you for voicing the opinions you put out on this board. Anything short of making threats or child porn, and the worst thing you face is a rating like R, MA, XXX or what have you.

 

Good post sir. I'm growing tired of not being able to discuss politics in this board without it being shifted back to a A/C vs. some form of government debate. Perhaps we need an anarcho capitalism sub-forum within this sub-forum to contain it all. Then I could avoid it a bit easier.

[huskerjack23]

i don't get how you don't understand that it is.

 

Well I don't, so tell me how!!

it's like me saying everyone in colorado smells like weed. even though with overwhelming evidence that a lot of people in colorado smell like weed, they don't all smell like weed.

 

all government isn't bad. you equate taxes with stealing. not everybody does. you equate being a citizen of the government into being coerced into not being free. not everybody does. it's a false dilemma. your evil isn't everyone's evil. the world is made of grays, not black and whites.

 

you'd say we are all sheep. i'd like to submit to you that you are just as much a sheep by staying in the echo chamber of A/C and the free market and not thinking critically and examining the world as gray and not as black and white.

 

i'd like you to actually somehow concede to the fact that there are possibilites for government to do good and for private sector to do evil (coercion and what not).

 

you say that it's not possible. that's a false dilemma. the theory of infinity proves you wrong.

 

WHAT?????? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

What is your defintion of taxes, if it's not theft? What is it about someone else running your life that makes you free? What does government do that's good? Please tell me.

 

There is no gray in either of these examples, it's either right or wrong. Your arguments of "false dilemna" or now the "theory of infinity" are merely excuses for failing to rationally and logically decipher problems.

my definition of taxes isn't black and white either. if i had to pay taxes to a king who silenced my thoughts and feelings, i would say that it was theft. but right now, i feel that the taxes i pay are my contribution to the society that allows me to think, feel, and speak however i wish.

 

i can't really fight in wars because i can't blindly follow someone into war without questioning it. but, those people fight for my freedom to question that. and i pay my taxes because they fight for those freedoms.

 

if one day, a president decides to piss all over the founding documents, i'll be joining the fight. but right now, i just don't see it yet.