New York City mosque

[AR Husker Fan]

My simplistic take on things: Religious groups, media groups, political groups, special interest groups can all be construed as extremists depending on their viewpoint and actions. Now if it was a Nazi rally hall/beerhaus or a Ho Chi Minh guerrilla training center then sure I'd oppose it. just sayin'

 

 

There were no animals harmed in the typing of this doofus opinion.

 

 

GBR

I think most people would agree with the bolded. And there would be justification for it, in most cases. If the "mosque" was a training ground for terrorists, then certainly it should be stopped. But it is simply a community center that is going to be operated by those of the Muslim faith. There is no evidence that it will train terroists - or even that it will advocate the overthrow of the government (which, incidently, would be protected speech).

 

The issue is that people are equating 9/11 not with individuals who's intent is to bring America harm; they are equating 9/11 with the Muslim faith. That's analogous with people saying no Christian churches should be built near the Oklahoma City federal building memorial because the people who perpetrated that act of terrorism were Christians.

 

In both cases, those were acts of terrorism. In both cases, they were carried out by individuals of a particular religous belief. In neither case did the acts implicate every individual of those faiths.

[rawhide]

Just tryin' to state the obvious in my own inept style

 

 

GBR

[AR Husker Fan]

I was agreeing with you, buddy.

 

 

[Manhattan]

Just a quick question, why do we here in America have to be the only tolerant, benevolent society??

 

Americans are the only tolerant, benevolent society?

 

 

Yeah, we have such a history of tolerance in the United States. It's not like basically every ethnic or religious minority in this country has been persecuted or marginalized for their beliefs. Oh wait. They have. Literally, can you think of a substantial minority group that hasn't been the subject of intolerance in this country?

 

 

And as for benevolent, we aren't. We are a very violent and warlike nation.

 

I also like your use of the world "only", as if you think only Americans have the capacity to be nice to people.

[Ponderosa]

I'll take a stab. This country was founded due, in large part, to the intolerance endured by those who sought to escape it. Religous, class, you name it. A quick reading of the constitution makes it pretty clear that the government that was established - the country, in fact - to be a place where one could, so long as he or she obeyed the law, practice their religion of choice, not be denied opportunities simply based on the prejudices of others, and the like.

 

The "mosque" - which it isn't - has no ties to 9/11 or the people who perpetrated that act. It happens to be a community center that is being constructed by those of the Muslim faith.

 

knapplc's point is that Husker fans attempt to display the same attitude, albeit in far different context. Respect, tolerance, benevolence. People who embody those ideals should also embody the ideals upon which this country was founded and, at least in theory, operates. It's a measure of respect for others. Ultimately, it's a football game. While we may, metaphorically, live and die with the Huskers, we also recognize that it is, after all, a game, and that our opponent does not endanger us in any sense. Likewise, we should recognize that a community center - regardless whether built or operated by any particular group of any particular religous belief, is not in and of itself, a danger.

 

Love or hate Oberman, he hit the nail on the head in his commentary this time. If you haven't watched, I urge you to do so. Very illuminating - particularly the fact of what already is within blocks of Ground Zero.

 

The bold (and only the bold) is simply incorrect. A mosque is part of the plan.

 

From the Park51.org website FAQ:

 

Park 51 FAQ

The Mosque



 

While a mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn't been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity or rhetoric. The final size and location of the mosque have yet to be determined, but it will only represent a small portion of the final structure.

 

Facilities

Park51 will grow into a world-class community center, planned to include the following facilities:

• outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
• a 500-seat auditorium
• a restaurant and culinary school
• cultural amenities including exhibitions
• education programs
• a library, reading room and art studios
• childcare services
• a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
• a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all


 

According to Google Maps: 51 Park Pl, New York, 10007 is approximately two blocks (approximately 0.1 mile) from the WTC site.

[zoogs]

Ponderosa, the point is that they are building this giant community center which includes a mosque among many, many other things...rather than that they are building a mosque, which is how it is often characterized.

[AR Husker Fan]

Even more to the point, the issue is not affected by whether the the structure will include a mosque. Rather, it's that people find it offensive. Why should it be? Again, if it is the fact that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims, then would that not also call for outrage against any Christian churches being built within viewing distance of the Oklahoma City federal building site or memorial? Those who are protesting are simply sterotyping - it's a form of bigotry, and nothing more.

[Ponderosa]

Ponderosa, the point is that they are building this giant community center which includes a mosque among many, many other things...rather than that they are building a mosque, which is how it is often characterized.

 

 

That seems to be a distinction without a difference, merely semantics. A (giant) community center with a (tiny) mosque or mosque with a community center.

 

But that was not Mr. Olbermann's point. He said, "This is not a mosque."

[Ponderosa]

Even more to the point, the issue is not affected by whether the the structure will include a mosque. Rather, it's that people find it offensive. Why should it be? Again, if it is the fact that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims, then would that not also call for outrage against any Christian churches being built within viewing distance of the Oklahoma City federal building site or memorial? Those who are protesting are simply sterotyping - it's a form of bigotry, and nothing more.

 

I doubt I'll make any more headway with you than others in this thread.

 

So when you say, "Those who are protesting..." - I read that as being "All who are protesting..." or as "Nearly all who are protesting...".

Is that a fair assessment?

[rawhide]

I believe Olbermann also stated that a mosque is a "holy place" where only believers are allowed That would tend to restrict the building to only Islamic faithful. Darn, no p/u games. His point being that the building was for everyone; not just muslims.

 

 

But since I am not familiar with all the rules of the Muslim faith I defer to those that do.

[Ponderosa]

I believe Olbermann also stated that a mosque is a "holy place" where only believers are allowed That would tend to restrict the building to only Islamic faithful. Darn, no p/u games. His point being that the building was for everyone; not just muslims.

 

 

But since I am not familiar with all the rules of the Muslim faith I defer to those that do.

 

Here you go.

 

Complete the non-comparison, comparison of the opposition to Germans of the 20s and 30s. And also creating a collective guilt for all of "us" for the actions of one unidentified person in Florida.

Do it to "us" and it is enlightened. Do it to any other group and it is bigoted. Nice touch.

 

Niemoller was not warning of the Holocaust. He was warning of the thousand steps before a holocaust became inevitable. If we are at merely the first of those steps again today, it is one step too close. Yet in a country dedicated to freedom, forces have gathered to blow out of all proportion the construction of a minor community center to transform it into a training ground for terrorists and an insult to the victims of 9/11 and a tribute to Medieval Muslim subjugation of the West. There is no training ground for terrorists. There is no insult to the victims of 9/11. There is no tribute to Medieval Muslim subjugation of the West. There is, in fact, no "Ground Zero mosque."

 

It is not a mosque. A mosque, technically, is a Muslim holy place in which only worship can be conducted. What is planned for 45 Park Place, New York City, is a community center. It's supposed to include a basketball court and a culinary school. It is to be 13 stories tall, and the top two stories will be a Muslim prayer space. What a cauldron of terrorism that will be. Terrorist chefs and terrorist point guards. And truly those who will use the center have more to fear from us than us from them, for there has been terrorism connected to a mosque in this country, in this year.

 

 

 

 

[AR Husker Fan]

Even more to the point, the issue is not affected by whether the the structure will include a mosque. Rather, it's that people find it offensive. Why should it be? Again, if it is the fact that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims, then would that not also call for outrage against any Christian churches being built within viewing distance of the Oklahoma City federal building site or memorial? Those who are protesting are simply sterotyping - it's a form of bigotry, and nothing more.

 

I doubt I'll make any more headway with you than others in this thread.

 

So when you say, "Those who are protesting..." - I read that as being "All who are protesting..." or as "Nearly all who are protesting...".

Is that a fair assessment?

In the sense that I worded it poorly. It should be, "Those who are protesting simply because it is a building that is associated with the Muslim faith..."

 

It is possible that there are those who protest it for other reasons - I haven't heard of any, but that does not negate the fact that they might be out there. To date, the only objections I have heard have been based on the idea that the building is an affront to the memory of 9/11. That's simply another way of saying, "The people who commited the terrorist acts of 9/11 were Muslims - and since the people creating the building are Muslim, it's bad and and an insult to those who died on 9/11." Again, it's the same logic that would hold that all Christians are bad because the bombers of the federal building in Oklahoma City were Christians.

[Ponderosa]

Even more to the point, the issue is not affected by whether the the structure will include a mosque. Rather, it's that people find it offensive. Why should it be? Again, if it is the fact that the 9/11 attackers were Muslims, then would that not also call for outrage against any Christian churches being built within viewing distance of the Oklahoma City federal building site or memorial? Those who are protesting are simply sterotyping - it's a form of bigotry, and nothing more.

 

I doubt I'll make any more headway with you than others in this thread.

 

So when you say, "Those who are protesting..." - I read that as being "All who are protesting..." or as "Nearly all who are protesting...".

Is that a fair assessment?

In the sense that I worded it poorly. It should be, "Those who are protesting simply because it is a building that is associated with the Muslim faith..."

 

It is possible that there are those who protest it for other reasons - I haven't heard of any, but that does not negate the fact that they might be out there. To date, the only objections I have heard have been based on the idea that the building is an affront to the memory of 9/11. That's simply another way of saying, "The people who commited the terrorist acts of 9/11 were Muslims - and since the people creating the building are Muslim, it's bad and and an insult to those who died on 9/11." Again, it's the same logic that would hold that all Christians are bad because the bombers of the federal building in Oklahoma City were Christians.

 

Ah, OK. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is not blind fear and a deep-seated bigotry the of the religion itself - neither in part, nor in whole.

 

But, and perhaps you won't answer a hypothetical, but what if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt (to you - your standards) that this specific group is in fact building a "Victory Center"?

Leaving any religious elements aside - if the building is a political symbol/statement by a specific group.

 

So, all the while maintaining their Constitutional right(s) to build the center, as the specific group sees fit.

And merely your own internal and unexpressed, personal opinion. Not in action, not in deed, but in thought alone. Not lifting a finger or nor saying a word.

 

[To yourself] Would you then oppose it?

[knapplc]

This is like asking if you would eat this center if it was a fish. You're taking away everything it's supposed to be and putting something entirely different in its place in your hypothetical. What possible value can such a question add to this conversation?

[Ponderosa]

This is like asking if you would eat this center if it was a fish. You're taking away everything it's supposed to be and putting something entirely different in its place in your hypothetical. What possible value can such a question add to this conversation?

 

What's the value, you say?

 

Hmmm...well...becasue that would be the actual argument against 51 Park Place - drained of the vitriol.

 

Not the straw-men setup and re-framed by MSNBC, Olby, the DNC, NYT, Bloomberg, etc.

It is not an attack on religion, the President (he waded in after the fact), the Constitution or any of the other garbage put out there.