New York City mosque

[huskertim]

Good, the first step is admitting it. Now don't you fell better?

[knapplc]

at what point did i throw Islam under the bus.

 

You should read what you write, or if you do, you should read it critically, as if someone without your belief/world view was reading what you're writing. Your posts are full of "they" and "them," painting all of Islam with the same brush, to the point, the brush with which you paint bin Laden and the 9/11 conspiracists. I'll underline where you're lumping these Muslims with the "bad guys."

 

My $.02

 

Firstly, let's not be naive, of course this is a big F@#$ YOU to the old red, white and blue. Must we overthink everything. The idea that there aren't any more suitable places for this "cultural center" in NYC is rediculous. The working title to the project was the Cordoba House, really, no history majors here I guess. If Rauf was as interested in reconciliation between the muslim and western worlds you think he could have shown a liitte of the "cultural sensativity" that he calls for from the rest of us.

 

Having said all this, keep in mind, I support everyone's right to be as big an A**hole as they can. God knows we've shead enough blood to defend that right. So if the owners of this property want to build their victory trophy over the site of our fallen citizens while the city of NY argues over wheather it should build a memorial to these lost souls, I say go for it.

 

I feel like this is really pretty simple. They knew this was going to upset people, and they did it anyway. Either this is callous or it is calculated.

As to how close is too close, well if you think two blocks is a great distance I'd have to ask what close is, obviously it wasn't too far for landing gear to travel.

 

Still, it's their land.

 

 

Actually, all I'm presupposeing is that this cleric is an A** and his actions prove it. I'm all for intra-Abrihamic peace and interaction, I just don't buy that that is the motivation here.

 

BTW at what point do all us patriotic defenders of everyone's right to build the mosque get around to defending people's right to be opposed to this? Agree or not, everyone has the right to speak his mind (or lack therof sometimes).

 

This isn't rocket science. If you didn't intend to lump all of Islam together, you should have chosen your words more carefully. However, it's pretty clear from post after post over several days that this is your intent.

[huskertim]

I guess I must be blind. I'm reading your examples and don't see what your talking about.

1. Feisal Abdul Rauf isn't all of Islam

2. The owners of this property aren't all of Islam

3. 2 blocks distance isn't all of Islam

4. This cleric isn't all of Islam.

 

Please, if I am blind, help me to see.

[knapplc]

I guess I must be blind. I'm reading your examples and don't see what your talking about.

1. Feisal Abdul Rauf isn't all of Islam

2. The owners of this property aren't all of Islam

3. 2 blocks distance isn't all of Islam

4. This cleric isn't all of Islam.

 

Please, if I am blind, help me to see.

You're blind. Let me help you.

 

1. Feisal Abdul Rauf has zero connection whatsoever to Osama bin Laden and/or the 9/11 bombings, yet you are holding these things against him.

2. The owners of this property have zero connection whatsoever to Osama bin Laden and/or the 9/11 bombings, yet you are holding these things against them.

3. The only relevance "two blocks" has with this situation is that it is the distance a set of landing gear traveled after the impact with WTC2, again drawing a direct relationship between the 9/11 terrorist attack and the Muslims attempting to build this mosque.

4. The actions of this cleric are in no way associated with Osama bin Laden and/or the 9/11 bombings, yet you are holding these things against him, calling him an "A**."

 

Anything else, or is your barrel out of fish?

[huskertim]

I think he's an A** because he's being insensitve and even provacative with his choice of loacation.

I don't and haven't blamed Feisal or the rest of the ownership group for 9/11

The distance thing was admittedly a cheap shot, but not by any means an acusation

and again, the cleric I'm referring to is Fesal (see above)

 

Now, if Carlfense wants to lump all Limbaugh listener, Manhattan wants to assume my ignorance of geography cause I'm from Nebraska (and apparently am naive enough to think $100,000,000 might just get you a property in other parts of NYC), or Huskerbob wants to lump all Americans as unable to grasp nuance...well, I guess that's fine.

 

Plenty more fish in the bucket, how's the ammo holding up?

[knapplc]

I think he's an A** because he's being insensitve and even provacative with his choice of loacation.

One could only think so by feeling he is in any way responsible for 9/11. This is simple ignorant bigotry.

 

I don't and haven't blamed Feisal or the rest of the ownership group for 9/11

You have, and I have shown you how you have. Continuing to stick your head in the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't take away your own words in this thread.

 

The distance thing was admittedly a cheap shot, but not by any means an acusation

One of many. But admitting that you're wrong here gives me hope that you may open your eyes and heart to your other statements. This is, after all, one of the things Jesus commands you to do.

 

Now, if Carlfense wants to lump all Limbaugh listener, Manhattan wants to assume my ignorance of geography cause I'm from Nebraska (and apparently am naive enough to think $100,000,000 might just get you a property in other parts of NYC), or Huskerbob wants to lump all Americans as unable to grasp nuance...well, I guess that's fine.

You're such a victim.

 

Plenty more fish in the bucket, how's the ammo holding up?

I have an unlimited supply. You keep making bigoted statements and then denying the obvious, and I'll keep pointing them out to you.

[huskertim]

Hardly claiming to be a victim, just pointing out the hypocracy.

I have to point out that I think alot of people are a**es but I'm pretty sure most of them had nothing to do with 9/11, and I'm still waiting for something other than a vague inferrance that I ever said Feisal was even remotely involved or that I have condemned one of the world's major religions out of hand.

 

Gotta cut off, work needs me.

[knapplc]

Hardly claiming to be a victim, just pointing out the hypocracy.

 

Mea culpa. How silly of me to focus on the minuscule topic of religious intolerance and the trampling on one of the very bases upon which this country is founded when I should have been focusing on the greater harm of you being accused of being a Limbaugh listener, or ignorant of New York real estate prices, or unable to grasp nuance.

 

Clearly those are far larger issues that we should be focusing on rather than silly things like freedom of religion. How the Founding Fathers failed to include any of the harms you've been victimized by in this thread in their Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights is beyond me. Clearly they were as derelict in their duties as am I.

[carlfense]

Good, the first step is admitting it. Now don't you fell better?

I would, I'm sure, if I knew what felling better meant.

[zoogs]

New York City is known for huge tracts of land

 

I really wonder what the alternative building spaces would be. It's not as if they are going out of their way to build there, is it? It's probably the most convenient spot to build anything. Additionally, it does not stop a memorial from existing. And it serves a large community of Americans who need it. Correct me where I am wrong.

[huskertim]

Hardly claiming to be a victim, just pointing out the hypocracy.

 

Mea culpa. How silly of me to focus on the minuscule topic of religious intolerance and the trampling on one of the very bases upon which this country is founded when I should have been focusing on the greater harm of you being accused of being a Limbaugh listener, or ignorant of New York real estate prices, or unable to grasp nuance.

 

Clearly those are far larger issues that we should be focusing on rather than silly things like freedom of religion. How the Founding Fathers failed to include any of the harms you've been victimized by in this thread in their Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights is beyond me. Clearly they were as derelict in their duties as am I.

 

 

But you are focused on those things. Your so busy trying to paint me as everything I'm not. I find it laughable that you take upon yourself the defense of religious tolerance while at the same time impuning all religions. I have nothing but repect for Islam. As a christian you seem to think I must hate all other religions. That is so backward. I see all Muslims, Jews, and Christians as servants of the same God. My particular beliefs may vary from thiers in vast ways, but I see us all as branches of the same tree. (This would be an Abrahamic philosiphy). Further, I am able to separate a person from a group of people, by your standards if I where to be critical of Bush, I must hate all Texans, Christians, and middle aged white guys.

 

Most of your posts are attacking positions I simply don't hold and frankly all evidence you have presented only reinforces this.

 

Carlfense opened this thread with (among others) the comment that this was probably a bad PR move. The notion that it was so because ignorant hicks might misconstrue the intent is the primary focus of my retort. I don't believe that this was inadvertant but rather intentional. The idea that leader of a particular group of likeminded people might say or do things specifically design to antagonize others to the delight his or her followers is pretty commonplace.

 

Maybe this is the only site that 100M will buy in NYC these days, not having shoped that market I could be wrong on that.

Maybe locateing this cultural center closer to the largest concentrations of those who would most likely use it like say Bay Ridge or Crown Heights just isn't fiscally viable.

 

It's just my opion that Feisal is poking the bear with a pointy stick and pulling the who, what, me? card.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still defend this American's (Feisal to be clear) right to do so.

[huskertim]

Good, the first step is admitting it. Now don't you fell better?

I would, I'm sure, if I knew what felling better meant.

 

 

Ouch brother, that's kinda bleak. Hope all's well.

[knapplc]

The funny thing is, I don't have to paint anyone as anything. You've done that yourself, with your own words. I've just shown where some people have misconceptions and/or prejudices.

 

 

And let's put all of our cards on the table here - I know the people protesting this mosque in this thread aren't evil, and I know you're all good guys. I know where you're coming from, and I empathize with your stance. I just don't agree with it, based on the religious freedoms we built this country on, and which I am sworn to uphold.

 

Our positions are likely not that far apart. We're providing example after example that makes it seem as if our positions are farther apart than they probably are to illustrate points. Too often that makes a conversation in an imperfect medium like this seem more rancorous than it really is.

[carlfense]

Good, the first step is admitting it. Now don't you fell better?

I would, I'm sure, if I knew what felling better meant.

 

 

Ouch brother, that's kinda bleak. Hope all's well.

One lame retort deserves another.

[bennychico11]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update?xrs=share_copy

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-update---ground-zero-mosque?xrs=share_copy