How good can we be with TM under center next year?

[3rd and long]

maybe they need a Niles Paul drill in practice? :ahhhhhhhh

Nah, the "Jamal drill" is enough

The drops weren't isolated to Kinnie. Plenty of guys got flak for it. Some of it is fair, some of it was for plays where it was a really tough to catch ball. But I think even the ones where it hits the guy in his hands and it drops - yes, that's his fault. But it also shows a lack of trust between QB and WR. And it goes back to an inconsistent ball coming from the QB, in my opinion. There's a little bit of both.

Ridiculous.

There doesn't need to be any cum-bye-ya karma between the qb & wr. The ball hits the wr's hands, he supposed to catch it. Period.

zoogies is right with the "little bit of both" idea. There has to be the thought running in a WR head that: "when I break off to run my 'in route', my QB will hit me in stride." The fact that Taylor can't do that 7-8 times out of 10 adds that thought of "where is the ball going to be" into the wide out's mind. Much in the same light, Taylor wasn't helped out a lot by his receivers dropping a lot of easy catches.

Taylor isn't devoid of all the blame, but he definitely doesn't deserve as much of it as he is getting.

I think this is exactly correct. There are two people involved to make a completion happen (I know that is over simplying, but the simple idea is throw and catch).

I have a couple of simple questions for those who so readily condem the receivers.

1. Have you ever caught a football, in a game?

2. Name five truly great receivers who had poor throwing QBs. Someone mentioned Blackman, how good would he be without Weeden?

The point is, that even though we do have a lot of drops (that's undeniable), the consistent delivery of the football by the QB is a big factor in the overall succes of the passing game.

 

[The Dude]

When the line can't block for Rex, it's the line's fault. When they can't block for Taylor, it's Taylor's fault.

You've proven my point. Most of you think its such a black and white matter. It's not. There's a lot of things that go into pass blocking. The offensive line, and the QB have to to be a functioning unit together. The offensive line have to have a feel for what the QB's tendencies are and vice versa. Run blocking is mostly based on execution at the point of attack. Pass blocking is much more complicated. It involves timing. How long the QB holds the ball, if a play breaks down, lineman having the ability to extend blocks for a QB, creating a pocket for the QB to step up in or roll out. Taylor has shown that there is clearly no telling what he might do when the play breaks down. Usually when a play breaks down with Taylor I think the lineman are much like me, just holding their breath praying he doesn't do something stupid.

Why is the play breaking down? Because of Martinez? Oh yeah, it is because of the horrible blocking up front...

Exactly. I thought that was fairly evident, but trying to have a discussion with True to the Red......Always is like trying to argue with Pee Wee Herman.

 

[Enhance]

I think this is exactly correct. There are two people involved to make a completion happen (I know that is over simplying, but the simple idea is throw and catch).

I have a couple of simple questions for those who so readily condem the receivers.

1. Have you ever caught a football, in a game?

2. Name five truly great receivers who had poor throwing QBs. Someone mentioned Blackman, how good would he be without Weeden?

The point is, that even though we do have a lot of drops (that's undeniable), the consistent delivery of the football by the QB is a big factor in the overall succes of the passing game.

I'm not condemning receivers by any means. I'll reiterate my point from earlier, which explains why I think this whole 'wide receivers don't know where the ball is going to be' idea is garbage.

Martinez and the wide receivers know the route, therefore both parties know when Martinez is supposed to throw the ball and when the receiver is supposed to get it. But it doesn't matter where the ball is - if it hits you, or is catchable, you make the catch - period. It's pretty black and white, as Pelini would say. The wide receiver needs to expect Martinez to make a perfect throw, and it's their responsibility to adjust to a throw that is catchable. This is what every wide receiver is taught.

Furthermore, quarterbacks have to make ridiculous throws in every single game that don't perfectly match the route in practice. An extra defender might be in one place, or the corner might be really tight on the wide receiver, therefore Martinez (or any quarterback) would try to make a back shoulder throw or will try and put it in a place the wide receiver can get to. This is why quarterbacks constantly throw a ball before a receiver is looking, and it's the receiver's responsibility to turn around, find the ball and make the catch. If Martinez' throw is off, that is on Martinez. If Martinez' throw is on, that's on the wide receiver, and this is the case for every single qb/wr tandem in college or pro. I really don't know how I can further explain to some of you that this idea is extremely elementary and complete garbage. This isn't backyard football.

Lastly, to really slam my point home, look at an extreme example - Drew Brees and the Saints. Now, don't go drawing crazy comparisons, because I'm definitely not trying to say anything about Martinez/Brees or our WRs vs the Saints WR. But here's my point - Drew Brees constantly throws footballs that match a receiver's route, but are in places that the ball isn't "supposed" to be. For example, in the divisional playoff game against the 49ers, Brees threw a lob pass (into triple coverage) and made his tight end go up and grab it on a post route. In a perfect world, Brees darts the ball across the field and hits Graham in the numbers. Instead, Brees lofts it up and has his tight end go up and make a play. Wide receivers are supposed to find the ball. If it's way off, that's Martinez. If it's catchable, that's on the WR.

 

[majech]

When the line can't block for Rex, it's the line's fault. When they can't block for Taylor, it's Taylor's fault.

I know you are being facetious, but there are many time when it IS Taylor's fault. He runs into blocked players quite often, he panics and leaves too soon sometimes, and he often does not "feel" pressure coming. The O-line clearly has it faults, but TMarts pocket presence, or lack there-of, compounds the problem.

True to the Red has made some very good points in this thread. Some of his posts are brass, but there is a lot spot on assessment there. I'm not trying to bashing Taylor, just saying it how it is. I REALLY want Tmart to succeed and win us championships, but I just don't see it

 

[Stumpy1]

maybe they need a Niles Paul drill in practice? :ahhhhhhhh

Nah, the "Jamal drill" is enough

The drops weren't isolated to Kinnie. Plenty of guys got flak for it. Some of it is fair, some of it was for plays where it was a really tough to catch ball. But I think even the ones where it hits the guy in his hands and it drops - yes, that's his fault. But it also shows a lack of trust between QB and WR. And it goes back to an inconsistent ball coming from the QB, in my opinion. There's a little bit of both.

Ridiculous.

There doesn't need to be any cum-bye-ya karma between the qb & wr. The ball hits the wr's hands, he supposed to catch it. Period.

zoogies is right with the "little bit of both" idea. There has to be the thought running in a WR head that: "when I break off to run my 'in route', my QB will hit me in stride." The fact that Taylor can't do that 7-8 times out of 10 adds that thought of "where is the ball going to be" into the wide out's mind. Much in the same light, Taylor wasn't helped out a lot by his receivers dropping a lot of easy catches.

Taylor isn't devoid of all the blame, but he definitely doesn't deserve as much of it as he is getting.

I think this is exactly correct. There are two people involved to make a completion happen (I know that is over simplying, but the simple idea is throw and catch).

I have a couple of simple questions for those who so readily condem the receivers.

1. Have you ever caught a football, in a game?

2. Name five truly great receivers who had poor throwing QBs. Someone mentioned Blackman, how good would he be without Weeden?

The point is, that even though we do have a lot of drops (that's undeniable), the consistent delivery of the football by the QB is a big factor in the overall succes of the passing game.

Blackman would be they same with or without Weeden. He is a great receiver because he catches everything that he should and even catches ones that are way off.

Look at Calvin Johnson with Detroit, He went to GT where they had a piss poor throwing QB but yet was a great receiver because of the catches and plays he made.

 

[Warrior10]

I think this is exactly correct. There are two people involved to make a completion happen (I know that is over simplying, but the simple idea is throw and catch).

I have a couple of simple questions for those who so readily condem the receivers.

1. Have you ever caught a football, in a game?

2. Name five truly great receivers who had poor throwing QBs. Someone mentioned Blackman, how good would he be without Weeden?

The point is, that even though we do have a lot of drops (that's undeniable), the consistent delivery of the football by the QB is a big factor in the overall succes of the passing game.

I'm not condemning receivers by any means. I'll reiterate my point from earlier, which explains why I think this whole 'wide receivers don't know where the ball is going to be' idea is garbage.

Martinez and the wide receivers know the route, therefore both parties know when Martinez is supposed to throw the ball and when the receiver is supposed to get it. But it doesn't matter where the ball is - if it hits you, or is catchable, you make the catch - period. It's pretty black and white, as Pelini would say. The wide receiver needs to expect Martinez to make a perfect throw, and it's their responsibility to adjust to a throw that is catchable. This is what every wide receiver is taught.

Furthermore, quarterbacks have to make ridiculous throws in every single game that don't perfectly match the route in practice. An extra defender might be in one place, or the corner might be really tight on the wide receiver, therefore Martinez (or any quarterback) would try to make a back shoulder throw or will try and put it in a place the wide receiver can get to. This is why quarterbacks constantly throw a ball before a receiver is looking, and it's the receiver's responsibility to turn around, find the ball and make the catch. If Martinez' throw is off, that is on Martinez. If Martinez' throw is on, that's on the wide receiver, and this is the case for every single qb/wr tandem in college or pro. I really don't know how I can further explain to some of you that this idea is extremely elementary and complete garbage. This isn't backyard football.

Lastly, to really slam my point home, look at an extreme example - Drew Brees and the Saints. Now, don't go drawing crazy comparisons, because I'm definitely not trying to say anything about Martinez/Brees or our WRs vs the Saints WR. But here's my point - Drew Brees constantly throws footballs that match a receiver's route, but are in places that the ball isn't "supposed" to be. For example, in the divisional playoff game against the 49ers, Brees threw a lob pass (into triple coverage) and made his tight end go up and grab it on a post route. In a perfect world, Brees darts the ball across the field and hits Graham in the numbers. Instead, Brees lofts it up and has his tight end go up and make a play. Wide receivers are supposed to find the ball. If it's way off, that's Martinez. If it's catchable, that's on the WR.

Great post. About as clear as you can make it.

 

[zoogs]

Where are you getting your game film from? Highschool? I don't think you can honestly say you have any idea what Brion's skill set is. Unless you are at practice? Which I'm guessing your not by your comments. Also I would be upset if Bo didn't stick up for his starting quarterback. Not doing anything that T O didn't do for Frost.

No, you can know what kind of a player is from HS film. You don't necessarily know how well they are doing in practice (although all the positive reports about scrimmages and practices over the past year plus - I am sure they were simply made up in an attempt to undermine Taylor ) or how well they are grasping the offense.

But you know what kind of a player Brion is: athletic QB that has good juking ability, solid passing fundamentals for a kid coming out of HS, has scrambling as a big part of his game while keeping his eyes downfield and looking for pass/run options, and makes a mean on-the-run throw.

Enhance, I would simply say that chemistry between QB and WR is important, any way you slice it. If the QB can't trust the WRs to run their routes right, that is a problem. If the WR expects an erratic throw - and by that I mean they don't know what kind of ball it will be or where it will be - then that's also an issue.

 

[Blaze1up]

We need bigger improvements out of him or it will be a similar season as before. There was very little from the start to the end of this season.

 

[Enhance]

Enhance, I would simply say that chemistry between QB and WR is important, any way you slice it. If the QB can't trust the WRs to run their routes right, that is a problem. If the WR expects an erratic throw - and by that I mean they don't know what kind of ball it will be or where it will be - then that's also an issue.

I think you're just way over-simplifying a very complicated thing. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, because I'm sure you know this, but throwing and catching a football in a game is far more complicated than 'chemistry'. Perhaps you don't mean that, but it's the impression I'm getting.

Quarterbacks constantly throw footballs where their receivers have to go up and get it. Similarly, Martinez quite often threw balls where his receivers could get it. The receivers just didn't make catches. The idea that he's an erratic thrower, thus the receivers get nervous, don't know where the ball will be, etc., is BS to me. Wide receivers are taught to run their route, look for the ball, adjust and make the catch. That's receiving 101 stuff right there, just smashed into a few words. I just don't buy it, especially when we've had quarterbacks at Nebraska with worse completion percentages than Martinez and receivers who didn't drop the ball near as much.

I agree that chemistry has to be there, but it's just one of a multitude of things by my standards. If you think about it, receivers shouldn't be expecting a ball to be anywhere in the first place. They should only expect when the ball will be thrown, not where the ball will be because they have no control over that. If it's uncatchable, that's Martinez' fault, but there's absolutely no excuse for a receiver getting two hands on the football and straight up dropping it. No excuse.

 

[majech]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

 

[zoogs]

I agree that chemistry has to be there, but it's just one of a multitude of things by my standards.

It's one of many things, that's all I'm trying to say

It is something where having a good rapport between QB and WR can really raise the level of the offense. Whereas having bad rapport gives the receivers a more difficult job, resulting in more miscues.

By the same principle, a really hard-hitting safety can get into a receiver's head and cause him to hear the footsteps. It would be a good job for the receiver to overcome it, but forcing the receiver to have that little bit of extra to think about disrupts the passing game. If chemistry is lacking, it simulates that effect, IMO.

Similarly, when a WR says "We're all on the same page. It's just that sometimes Taylor throws a high ball, then he'll come back and throw a liner -- you know, a different kind of ball"

He also added, "We just have to execute and make plays", so you are not at all wrong that it's on the WR as well. When a WR could have made a play but didn't, it's a blown opportunity. It does not mean that he couldn't have been put in a better position. It isn't everything, but I don't think it's BS either. Just saying that to raise the level of the NU passing attack, everybody needs to get better - not just the oft-demonized WRs.

 

[Enhance]

Just saying that to raise the level of the NU passing attack, everybody needs to get better - not just the oft-demonized WRs.

I think we agree on the overall theme. So, that's good enough for me!

 

[The Dude]

When the line can't block for Rex, it's the line's fault. When they can't block for Taylor, it's Taylor's fault.

I know you are being facetious, but there are many time when it IS Taylor's fault. He runs into blocked players quite often, he panics and leaves too soon sometimes, and he often does not "feel" pressure coming. The O-line clearly has it faults, but TMarts pocket presence, or lack there-of, compounds the problem.

True to the Red has made some very good points in this thread. Some of his posts are brass, but there is a lot spot on assessment there. I'm not trying to bashing Taylor, just saying it how it is. I REALLY want Tmart to succeed and win us championships, but I just don't see it

At the same time, the oline's shortcomings compound Taylor's problems. It goes both ways. It is a team sport afterall.

He skewed the thread into a Taylor bashing session. I don't care how many good points he had in doing so. If you're waiting for a QB to come in and win us a championship, I hope you're patient. Teams win championships. Not quarterbacks. A lot of things need to improve to reach that level. The QB position on this team is far from the top of that list. Don't get me wrong, it's on the list. Everyone on the team needs to improve to reach that level. Hyper-scrutinizing the QB position is easy, but it's lazy and to do so is failing to see the big picture. It's not like Taylor's goofy throwing motion is losing us games and keeping our defense from playing at a championship level.

 

[bshirt]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

 

[Enhance]

People that talk about how good TMart is because of his all-time yardage ranking crack me up. Since when did stats like that really matter? He passed Tommie Frazier. So? Do you honestly think he is anywhere close to as good as Tommie was at running his offense? Tommie made huge plays, game changing plays, national championship game changing plays. Tmarts numbers are better because we use Tmart WAY more than we used Tommie. I think Tommie was like 14% of our offense while I believe Taylor has been close to 70% of our offense. That is a fault of our coaching imo.

Just because someone has done more of something than someone else, does not make them better. Vinney Testaverde has more NFL passing yards than Fouts, Brees, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Kelly, Young, Simms, Aikman, Warner, Bradshaw, and Eli. So what? All those guys are or were better than Vinny, he just played longer and had more opportunity.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can WATCH Taylor run his offense and watch Tommie run his offense and put them in the same sentence. It's not ever close. We are not talking fantasy football, we are talking actual football.

Majech, please believe me that nobody is saying Tmart is better than Frazier was.

That being said, the point many are trying to say is that football is a team sport. I can't imagine you not acknowledging that comparing those two is apples and oranges in many ways. I'm a Lincoln native and I assure you I've watched both but where it gets muddy is when we consider the "team" they played with.

I would argue that Tmart, Lee, Ganz or "any" qb we've had lately would have performed much, much better with the Oline, rbs, wrs & OC Frazier played with. Having a vicious, attacking mid-90s defense that crushes opponent offenses wouldn't hurt either.

In summary I think it's grossly unfair to compare Frazier's "WATCHED" results with Tmart's. We're talking two very, very different "teams" in terms of quality.

Good point, which reflects upon something I think most people agree on - great offenses (and defenses) start on the lines. Nebraska is never going to really compete for a national title until we get back to playing really well on the lines.

And I don't think it's too bold to suggest the offensive line has been one of the most glaring issues over the last three years, for various reasons. I liked the '11 line better than the '09 and '10 line, but not greatly.