Is Faith Moral?

[knapplc]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

[Husker_x]

The way I'm understanding you so far is that whatever happens, whether a ministry succeeds or goes bust, is the will of God...

not sure where you got that from...

so by that logic any event whatever is the will of God and there's no getting better or worse at reading the signals at all. Or am I missing something?

Yes...you are. Man is an imperfect being serving a perfect God. God created man with a will. We are not mindless beings just going from point to point in Gods plan. I don't want to get too deep theologically here, but the bottom line is that man is more than capable at acting outside of Gods will. happens everyday. I also never said that any of the above examples were Gods will. I simply stated that you saw them as a contradiction, and they are not.

 

P.S. I know this was to Knapplc...but I do believe in the gifts of the spirit.

 

Gave the wrong impression, sorry. What I meant to imply was that it seems to me there is know way of knowing whether or not a given action is the will of God or just your own decision. I'm trying to understand the mechanism of differentiating them from your perspective. And specifically. Maybe you could tell me something that you did that you know God willed you to do?

 

Also, if human beings are capable of acting outside the will of God, do you mean to say that God isn't actually in control of everything?

[SOCALHUSKER]

What do you say? Is faith moral?

No. Faith requires blind obedience, which could require one to do something without regard for reason or rational thought. And since reason or rational thought is what guides an individuals morality, or more simply that which furthers one's life, it would be immoral to do something that goes against or disregards one's reason.

 

Also, can faith be anything but blind? If not, wouldn't it simply be evidence?

 

I too, wonder about the contradictions of God's supposed will. Either, he's good and it's his will that good things happen, he's evil and it's his will that bad things happen, or he simply does not exist and good and bad things simply happen?

[Husker_x]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

 

I don't know a lot of gay people in my area for one. The topic hasn't come up with the ones I knew better beforehand for two. I'm not particularly interested in why people are gay for three. And the issue of homosexuality and its impact on society is nowhere near as important as other topics, such as religion, in my opinion, for four.

 

Any more questions about my talks with gay men?

[knapplc]

Why is knowing them part of the equation? Do you know me? Do you know Landlord? Do you know muzicman? I'm curious why that's a factor.

[SOCALHUSKER]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

Didn't he already say that it doesn't interest him?

 

Though I'm sure it would pique his interest if "gay" people started banging on the door trying to convert him, every hotel he stayed at had a "gay" magazine on the nightstand or if at nearly every event he attended someone was shoving "gay" speeches, literature, and other propaganda down his throat.

[knapplc]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

Didn't he already say that it doesn't interest him?

 

Though I'm sure it would pique his interest if "gay" people started banging on the door trying to convert him, every hotel he stayed at had a "gay" magazine on the nightstand or if at nearly every event he attended someone was shoving "gay" speeches, literature, and other propaganda down his throat.

When have I "shoved religious propaganda down your throat?" Or his? When has anyone on this board done so? Do you expect me to answer for the Gideons? And what events are you attending where religious things are "shoved down your throat?" The last time that happened to me was when I was at church.

 

Why the animosity? What have I done to you that you react this way to me and Christians like me?

[Husker_x]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

Didn't he already say that it doesn't interest him?

 

Though I'm sure it would pique his interest if "gay" people started banging on the door trying to convert him, every hotel he stayed at had a "gay" magazine on the nightstand or if at nearly every event he attended someone was shoving "gay" speeches, literature, and other propaganda down his throat.

 

Seriously knap, I think by now you've realized this thread of discussion isn't getting you what you wanted. I posted a general topic in a politics and religion forum on a topic that interests me. You chose to respond to it––no one forced you to do that––and now this little rabbit trail is pretty much run out. Was there an actual question you were leading to, or were you just curious about my conversations with gay men and women?

 

Edit: And Socal is mostly right. Christians do proselytize all the time; it's a big part of American culture, Christianity. I don't mind it as long as it's a free exchange of ideas and no one is trying to silence the other. I don't feel persecuted by people telling me I'm going to hell if I don't believe what they do, even if I probably have a right to feel that way. But I do approach with suspicion anyone who thinks that talking about his religion is being persecuted.

[knapplc]

Since you must have missed it:

 

Why is knowing them part of the equation? Do you know me? Do you know Landlord? Do you know muzicman? I'm curious why that's a factor.

[Husker_x]

Since you must have missed it:

 

Why is knowing them part of the equation? Do you know me? Do you know Landlord? Do you know muzicman? I'm curious why that's a factor.

 

Because it makes it difficult to hold conversations with people you don't know. And it was one of four factors. Guess you missed those. I don't know any of you, but neither was this thread directed at any of you. It was open to anyone, Christian, atheist, buddhist or hindu.

[muzicman0]

Gave the wrong impression, sorry. What I meant to imply was that it seems to me there is know way of knowing whether or not a given action is the will of God or just your own decision. I'm trying to understand the mechanism of differentiating them from your perspective. And specifically. Maybe you could tell me something that you did that you know God willed you to do?

 

Also, if human beings are capable of acting outside the will of God, do you mean to say that God isn't actually in control of everything?

I'm not sure that I can describe to you how I know that it is God speaking to me. If you want to call it a feeling, sure...not quiet right, but close, I guess.

 

Moving to SoCal was definitely something that God had me do. We moved out here to help start a church. By a lot of peoples standards, it is not a success...however, as I was reminded yesterday in service, lives have been changed. Drug addicts are no longer doing drugs. Marriages that were headed to divorce are stronger than ever 5 years later. Insecure people have a security in knowing God. This to ME is a success, and well worth the time and effort it has taken.

 

As far as God being in control...again, I don't want to get too deep in theology here, but God knows the beginning and the end. So...does God know the choices you are going to make? yep. Does he control the choices you make. I don't think so. He created man with a free will. That is why it is so important to him that you have faith. He doesn't make you believe...but he wants you too.

 

He has put out the evidence, it is up to you to see it.

 

I'm going offline here in a bit. so probably will have to make this my last response for now. I will say this though. As much as you say that we should be open to opposing viewpoints, you should do the same. Just because you don't see any evidence, doesn't mean it's not there. If you honestly want to know the mechanics of hearing God's voice...spend a week or two seriously praying, and asking God to reveal himself to you. and Listen. It's not about trying to get God to DO something for you, it's about just spending time talking & listening.

 

Somehow, I doubt you will do that, which again is your choice...but I can, without a doubt say that it is Gods will for you to spend time with him. But, like I said before...He won't make you.

[SOCALHUSKER]

So you haven't, but you would. Why haven't you?

Didn't he already say that it doesn't interest him?

 

Though I'm sure it would pique his interest if "gay" people started banging on the door trying to convert him, every hotel he stayed at had a "gay" magazine on the nightstand or if at nearly every event he attended someone was shoving "gay" speeches, literature, and other propaganda down his throat.

When have I "shoved religious propaganda down your throat?" Or his? When has anyone on this board done so? Do you expect me to answer for the Gideons? And what events are you attending where religious things are "shoved down your throat?" The last time that happened to me was when I was at church.

 

Why the animosity? What have I done to you that you react this way to me and Christians like me?

 

I didn't say you? I said that his interest might be piqued if that happened to him. It could come from anyone.

 

Do religious folks not come by your house to preach? Do you not see a Bible at nearly every hotel? Do you not attend sporting events, seminars, family gatherings or any other event where some religious person always attempts to insert their "god" into the mix?

 

I wasn't directing anything at you, I was just pointing out that when those things start to happen his interest might increase.

[knapplc]

Since you must have missed it:

 

Why is knowing them part of the equation? Do you know me? Do you know Landlord? Do you know muzicman? I'm curious why that's a factor.

 

Because it makes it difficult to hold conversations with people you don't know. And it was one of four factors. Guess you missed those. I don't know any of you, but neither was this thread directed at any of you. It was open to anyone, Christian, atheist, buddhist or hindu.

 

So you're afraid of critiquing strangers about their sexual preferences, but not about their religious beliefs. What is it about religion that seems safer to you?

[knapplc]

Do religious folks not come by your house to preach?

Only once, and I politely sent him on his way. I get far more visits from people trying to sell me lawn care products. Apparently my lawn sucks? Do religious folks come by your house to preach? If they do, and you don't want them to, do you ask them to leave? Because that's what I did with the dude who came to my house, and that's what I do with the lawn care guys.

Do you not see a Bible at nearly every hotel?

Sure, but I also see brochures for ladies of the evening, brochures for restaurants, brochures for gambling, brochures for sightseeing trips, etc., that I have no interest in. Are those being "shoved down my throat?"

Do you not attend sporting events, seminars, family gatherings or any other event where some religious person always attempts to insert their "god" into the mix?

Man, you and I go to different sporting events and seminars. Can you give me an example where that's happened?

I wasn't directing anything at you, I was just pointing out that when those things start to happen his interest might increase.

The rancor with which I perceived those posts was directed at Christians. I'm a Christian. Maybe you should be more specific about which Christians you're speaking about?

[muzicman0]

Do religious folks not come by your house to preach? Do you not see a Bible at nearly every hotel? Do you not attend sporting events, seminars, family gatherings or any other event where some religious person always attempts to insert their "god" into the mix?

 

I wasn't directing anything at you, I was just pointing out that when those things start to happen his interest might increase.

OK, one more post...

 

Very rarely do religious folks come by my house to preach. In my 6 years in the OC, once that I can recall.

 

Every hotel that I stay at has cable channels that preach evolution as fact. I choose not to watch them.

 

Events...if you feel someone is pushing something you don't want...walk away, or don't go in the first place. I find it funny that it's ok to come on a message board, and post this stuff, and anyone who is the least bit defensive is just told to stay out of the conversation, but those same people get all offended when someone even mentions religion around them.