Please Believe

[Ratt Mhule]

23 minutes in Hell

 

Its a long read, but I think everyone needs to read it. Hopefully, everyone will believe it in one way or another. Even if you don't believe this guy, believe it is there. This is the reason I never say "go to hell" when someone makes me mad. I would never wish this upon anyone. After your done reading and feel like I do right now, you will prob need to watch this.

 

[Husker_x]

Here's what I felt when I got done browsing the site and watching the video.

 

 

You have got to be joking.

[Ratt Mhule]

Here's what I felt when I got done browsing the site and watching the video.

 

 

You have got to be joking.

 

 

There have been many people throughout history that have had near death experiences and claimed to have seen Jesus. Did you ever see the movie Twin Towers with Nicolas Cage where the people were buried beneath the rubble on 9/11 before being dug out? Do you watch the history channel? There are shows about hell and people who have been clinically dead and have been brought back claiming to have been drug to hell by demons. I was kinda expecting that response anyway. Like I said you don't necessarily believe this guy, but with all the NDE's throughout history I think people have seen it first hand before being brought back to life.

[roundegotrip]

PB, I flatter myself by thinking I'm a pretty devout Christian. I in no way believe that that guy visited and brought back to us stories of his time in hell. He takes scriptures out of context. The hell he paints a picture of is pretty much the popular image of hell that's been built up over the years by writers, artists, and later actors and directors, which more closely resembles Roman purgatory or the Muslim hell described in the Quran than anything written in the bible. Demons are fallen angels, not misshapen nightmare monsters from a Dungeons & Dragons manual. They are not ignorant, they are intelligent. They will not be there to torture defenseless humans in hell, they will be there to suffer eternal separation from God, just like everyone else there.

 

I highly suggest that you read this article.

[Husker_x]

There have been many people throughout history that have had near death experiences and claimed to have seen Jesus. Did you ever see the movie Twin Towers with Nicolas Cage where the people were buried beneath the rubble on 9/11 before being dug out? Do you watch the history channel? There are shows about hell and people who have been clinically dead and have been brought back claiming to have been drug to hell by demons. I was kinda expecting that response anyway. Like I said you don't necessarily believe this guy, but with all the NDE's throughout history I think people have seen it first hand before being brought back to life.

 

I was afraid of that. Let's take it from the top, then. I won't respond to the NDE claims just yet. For now let's just stick with what first one you offered.

 

Mr. Wiese gives away everything you need to dismiss his entire fantastic raving in about the first five hundred words.

 

So to get right into it, quickly: My wife and I were at the Sunday night prayer meeting that we always attend with our pastors. And we went home like any other normal night and went to bed. About 3:00 o'clock in the morning I was taken. I did not know how I got there until I returned. Then the Lord explained. But I was just dropped into a prison cell, just like a regular prison cell, like you imagine, with rough huge stone walls and bars on the door. I didn't know where I was yet. All I knew was that it was extremely hot, terribly hot.

 

Now for whatever reason the shoddy presentation of this terrible website seems to confuse the hell out of me (heh), but unless I'm really missing something, what he is describing above is not a near death experience. This schmo says he was laying in his bed when he was 'taken.' This happens to me about every night. I am laying there, and sooner or later it's like my mind is thrown into a dark oblivion. It's only hours later that I realize how much time has gone by, and I can never remember exactly when or how I got in or out of this time lapse. I call this experience sleep. Sometimes I remember these fantastic voyages. I see places I've been before, some that don't exist––some that can't exist. Occasionally the emotions or sensations of the experiences are so palpable that even after coming back to the real world I still feel the effects. I call these dreams.

 

Mr. Wiese is at least bright enough to anticipate this response. He says:

 

The first question that would be in mine, if I was listening to me, would be, "How do you know it wasn't just a dream that you had? A Bad dream?" A couple of points to make, first of all, I had left my body. I saw my body when I returned, lying on the floor. So I know for sure it was an out of body experience.

 

Let that detonate in your brain a second. The way he knows it was an out of body experience is that while he was asleep he saw his body. If this is sufficient proof to demonstrate a claim that a conscious activity can happen outside the framework of neurochemistry for you, heaven help you. Even if out of body experiences were any kind of testable, verifiable portion of reality, this would still be piddling, awful evidence for it. He then goes on to cherry pick quotes from a myth book in order to substantiate the possibility that his 'vision' was, in fact, possible.

 

I don't know what a work of historical fiction starring Nicholas Cage has to do with the reality of a netherworld of eternal torment, or how a television channel which squeezes this nonsense in between credulous programming on ancient aliens and monster quests manages to prove anything. This entire account is one leap in logic after another. I have spoken personally with a girl who was killed in a car accident. She was dead for several minutes before being revived. Do you know what she saw? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was just darkness. No sound, no sight, no memory. Nothing. The discrepancy of all these accounts of visions, OBEs, and NDEs should be telling. Why you would hitch your cart to one version instead of another is the puzzling aspect.

[Ratt Mhule]

There have been many people throughout history that have had near death experiences and claimed to have seen Jesus. Did you ever see the movie Twin Towers with Nicolas Cage where the people were buried beneath the rubble on 9/11 before being dug out? Do you watch the history channel? There are shows about hell and people who have been clinically dead and have been brought back claiming to have been drug to hell by demons. I was kinda expecting that response anyway. Like I said you don't necessarily believe this guy, but with all the NDE's throughout history I think people have seen it first hand before being brought back to life.

 

I was afraid of that. Let's take it from the top, then. I won't respond to the NDE claims just yet. For now let's just stick with what first one you offered.

 

Mr. Wiese gives away everything you need to dismiss his entire fantastic raving in about the first five hundred words.

 

So to get right into it, quickly: My wife and I were at the Sunday night prayer meeting that we always attend with our pastors. And we went home like any other normal night and went to bed. About 3:00 o'clock in the morning I was taken. I did not know how I got there until I returned. Then the Lord explained. But I was just dropped into a prison cell, just like a regular prison cell, like you imagine, with rough huge stone walls and bars on the door. I didn't know where I was yet. All I knew was that it was extremely hot, terribly hot.

 

Now for whatever reason the shoddy presentation of this terrible website seems to confuse the hell out of me (heh), but unless I'm really missing something, what he is describing above is not a near death experience. This schmo says he was laying in his bed when he was 'taken.' This happens to me about every night. I am laying there, and sooner or later it's like my mind is thrown into a dark oblivion. It's only hours later that I realize how much time has gone by, and I can never remember exactly when or how I got in or out of this time lapse. I call this experience sleep. Sometimes I remember these fantastic voyages. I see places I've been before, some that don't exist––some that can't exist. Occasionally the emotions or sensations of the experiences are so palpable that even after coming back to the real world I still feel the effects. I call these dreams.

 

Mr. Wiese is at least bright enough to anticipate this response. He says:

 

The first question that would be in mine, if I was listening to me, would be, "How do you know it wasn't just a dream that you had? A Bad dream?" A couple of points to make, first of all, I had left my body. I saw my body when I returned, lying on the floor. So I know for sure it was an out of body experience.

 

Let that detonate in your brain a second. The way he knows it was an out of body experience is that while he was asleep he saw his body. If this is sufficient proof to demonstrate a claim that a conscious activity can happen outside the framework of neurochemistry for you, heaven help you. Even if out of body experiences were any kind of testable, verifiable portion of reality, this would still be piddling, awful evidence for it. He then goes on to cherry pick quotes from a myth book in order to substantiate the possibility that his 'vision' was, in fact, possible.

 

I don't know what a work of historical fiction starring Nicholas Cage has to do with the reality of a netherworld of eternal torment, or how a television channel which squeezes this nonsense in between credulous programming on ancient aliens and monster quests manages to prove anything. This entire account is one leap in logic after another. I have spoken personally with a girl who was killed in a car accident. She was dead for several minutes before being revived. Do you know what she saw? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was just darkness. No sound, no sight, no memory. Nothing. The discrepancy of all these accounts of visions, OBEs, and NDEs should be telling. Why you would hitch your cart to one version instead of another is the puzzling aspect.

 

 

Were you on the debate team in high school or something? lol As far as the website goes, its just a transcription from one of his speeches at a church. You can find the actual video of his speech on youtube if you really want. I will just go out on a limb and say you don't care to watch the videos haha.

 

As far as the out of body experiences and the nuerochemistry involved in that happening, your talking to someone who believes in God and that God can do whatever he wants/when he wants, so yes I think that this can happen if God wants it to. If I did not believe in God, I would think I was crazy just like you probably think I am and Mr. Wiese is. Most of my friends happen to be atheist so Im used to being called crazy for believing in "magic". To me it is not magic. I respect their opinion, just like I respect yours. Everyone can believe in whatever they please, it does not make anyone better than the other.

 

And as far as you friend goes, I do not have every answer. Just like you do not have every answer. There is no way to 100% prove God exists. Just like there is no way to prove 100% he does not exist. The only way to "prove"he exists is for him to show himself to the world. I think he does sometimes through miracles, but that depends on your definition of a miracle. I choose to believe in God due to life experiences. During high school, I could care less about God or going to church. I was actually told about that book 90 Minutes in Heaven from a 5th grader at the school I work at and I went home to research it more. To me, I felt God calling me back to him through this kid. The funny thing was, this kids name was Eli, a biblical name. And then some other things in my life I can't explain but Im not gonna get into that. I don't know why you believe in what you do, frankly its none of my business.

 

I like watching the history channel. I think they have some really cool shows on it. As far as the alien shows, some people actually do think aliens exist. Stephen Hawking thinks aliens are out there and he is one of the smartest and most respected scientists in the world. So what you think is "nonsense" may not be for another person. I don't think their shows on heaven or hell or God vs. Satan is nonsense at all. I actually think they are quite interesting. And Nicolas Cage in the movie World Trade Center has nothing to do with my argument, its the fact it was a true story with real people living today claiming to have seen Jesus while buried beneath the rubble on 9/11 when they were losing all hope of surviving. Nothing to do with Nicolas Cage being in a movie lol.

[Ratt Mhule]

Double post

[VA Husker Fan]

My dad had a heart attack and his heart stopped 5 times and they brought him back 5 times, and he said there was no white light or demons or any experience like that.

[Ratt Mhule]

My dad had a heart attack and his heart stopped 5 times and they brought him back 5 times, and he said there was no white light or demons or any experience like that.

 

I find it very interesting as to why some people have these experiences and some do not. Like I said, I do not have every answer and neither does anyone else.

[Husker_x]

 

Were you on the debate team in high school or something?

 

No. I am a fan of education, though.

 

As far as the out of body experiences and the nuerochemistry involved in that happening, your talking to someone who believes in God and that God can do whatever he wants/when he wants, so yes I think that this can happen if God wants it to. If I did not believe in God, I would think I was crazy just like you probably think I am and Mr. Wiese is.

 

That kind of freedom from reality must be liberating.

 

Most of my friends happen to be atheist so Im used to being called crazy for believing in "magic". To me it is not magic. I respect their opinion, just like I respect yours. Everyone can believe in whatever they please, it does not make anyone better than the other.

 

Of course people can believe whatever the want. It's a great country. What I'd be remiss to not to point out, however, is that while it isn't a matter of better or worse, you seem to be saying that your credulity in one area gives you permission to keep on running with it. The result is you believe both in a god and now some strange man's fantastical night journey. What else are you willing to buy into on the most threadbare of second hand reports?

 

And as far as you friend goes, I do not have every answer. Just like you do not have every answer. There is no way to 100% prove God exists. Just like there is no way to prove 100% he does not exist. The only way to "prove"he exists is for him to show himself to the world. I think he does sometimes through miracles, but that depends on your definition of a miracle.

 

I'm saying even if he does exist, the claim of Mr. Wiese, OBEs, and NDEs would still be worthless in determining it. If you take into account that no two experience claims are exact matches, that people tend to see strange things when the brain is ill, under stress, under the influence of drugs like anaesthesia, or dying, and that people can grant themselves false memories, what do you suppose is more likely? Hell exists and is as described by this yokel, or there's some rational explanation? Do not be deceived, because the brain can be. Easily.

 

I choose to believe in God due to life experiences. During high school, I could care less about God or going to church. I was actually told about that book 90 Minutes in Heaven from a 5th grader at the school I work at and I went home to research it more. To me, I felt God calling me back to him through this kid. The funny thing was, this kids name was Eli, a biblical name. And then some other things in my life I can't explain but Im not gonna get into that. I don't know why you believe in what you do, frankly its none of my business.

 

I'd guess a sizable percentage of the Western world is named after a biblical character or a derivation of one. It's been a common practice for centuries. I hesitate to point this out, but usually when fifth graders recommend books, it isn't because of their deep theological or philosophical truths.

 

I like watching the history channel. I think they have some really cool shows on it. As far as the alien shows, some people actually do think aliens exist. Stephen Hawking thinks aliens are out there and he is one of the smartest and most respected scientists in the world. So what you think is "nonsense" may not be for another person. I don't think their shows on heaven or hell or God vs. Satan is nonsense at all. I actually think they are quite interesting. And Nicolas Cage in the movie World Trade Center has nothing to do with my argument, its the fact it was a true story with real people living today claiming to have seen Jesus while buried beneath the rubble on 9/11 when they were losing all hope of surviving. Nothing to do with Nicolas Cage being in a movie lol.

 

Nothing wrong with the history channel as long as you're a skeptical viewer, which you should be anyway. Keep in mind, the function of the history channel isn't to teach history. It's to entertain and profit at all costs. Sadly we're at a state in our culture where people prefer flirting with superstition and magic to what they perceive to be the doldrom of scientific investigation and inquiry. People prefer it when these shows at least allow for the illusion that there is magic in the world. Of course no one ever actually finds an alien or a monster or a demon, but it's fun to pretend we might.

[Ratt Mhule]

Of course people can believe whatever the want. It's a great country. What I'd be remiss to not to point out, however, is that while it isn't a matter of better or worse, you seem to be saying that your credulity in one area gives you permission to keep on running with it. The result is you believe both in a god and now some strange man's fantastical night journey. What else are you willing to buy into on the most threadbare of second hand reports?

 

Its not a matter of me believing if this man did or did not in fact have an OBE to hell, its a matter of hell being a real place. I can say this guy is loony all I want, but who am I to call him a liar. I do not know him or if this actually happened to him or not. I said in my first post even if you don't believe this guy, the place still exists. Whether it be a eternal place of torture or a state of mind.

 

I'm saying even if he does exist, the claim of Mr. Wiese, OBEs, and NDEs would still be worthless in determining it. If you take into account that no two experience claims are exact matches, that people tend to see strange things when the brain is ill, under stress, under the influence of drugs like anaesthesia, or dying, and that people can grant themselves false memories, what do you suppose is more likely? Hell exists and is as described by this yokel, or there's some rational explanation? Do not be deceived, because the brain can be. Easily.

 

No two NDEs or OBEs are the exact same, but they are very similar in nature. I did some reading about them a little today due to this thread just to see what I could find. From what Ive read, they were all somewhat similar. Especially the feelings that came over the people. A sense of peace, love, better knowledge of the world, keener senses, etc. These feelings were talked about in many of the NDE or OBE I read about. Many others talked about their judgement process and meeting Jesus, but not actually being able to see Heaven before they were brought back. Pretty interesting to read that stuff IMO.

 

I'd guess a sizable percentage of the Western world is named after a biblical character or a derivation of one. It's been a common practice for centuries. I hesitate to point this out, but usually when fifth graders recommend books, it isn't because of their deep theological or philosophical truths.

 

There are only two kids in the school right now that come to mind that have biblical names. Matthew and Luke (they are brothers) but those are pretty common names. Eli is not a very common name. I've only met one, and it was this kid. And I guess Eli Manning, but I don't know him personally lol. And when he was telling me about the book (I can't even remember what brought it up in the first place) Im sure he wasn't trying to impress me with his deep intellectual thoughts on theology. He was just telling me about the book and saying I should read it because it was a good book. I looked it up when I got home and it interested me. I guess I never really lost my faith through my teenage years, I just didn't care anymore. This situation got me thinking that maybe this was God calling me back and that is what I still feel.

 

Nothing wrong with the history channel as long as you're a skeptical viewer, which you should be anyway. Keep in mind, the function of the history channel isn't to teach history. It's to entertain and profit at all costs. Sadly we're at a state in our culture where people prefer flirting with superstition and magic to what they perceive to be the doldrom of scientific investigation and inquiry. People prefer it when these shows at least allow for the illusion that there is magic in the world. Of course no one ever actually finds an alien or a monster or a demon, but it's fun to pretend we might.

 

We can go on and on about all this stuff for hours. Your views will not change and mine will not change, so this discussion is like discussing if we should fire Shawn Watson or not. It will never get anywhere. I will say let's just agree to disagree. I should have known this thread would turn into Christianity vs. atheism just by reading some of the other threads about religion in this forum. But, afterall, it is the religion subforum and I enjoy discussing religion and am proud of my beliefs even if some people think I am crazy and have no sense of reality. But I did enjoy hearing your thoughts on the topic and I do respect your opinion, Husker X. By the way, you should become a debate coach. Your pretty good at it.

[74Hunter]

As far as the out of body experiences and the nuerochemistry involved in that happening, your talking to someone who believes in God and that God can do whatever he wants/when he wants, so yes I think that this can happen if God wants it to. If I did not believe in God, I would think I was crazy just like you probably think I am and Mr. Wiese is.

 

That kind of freedom from reality must be liberating.

I'm not normally one to debate whether God does or does not exist, especially with someone that does not believe. You are entitled to your beliefs, just like anyone else.

 

But please, do not present your beliefs as "reality" simply because you consider them to be easier to "prove." You cannot prove that there is no God or that people don't experience OBEs, just like I cannot prove that there is a God or that people experience OBEs, no matter how "educated" you seem to think that you are. That's why it's called "faith." All I know is that things happen which science cannot explain, and I feel that it is due to the presence of a higher power.

 

Two point as to whether one should believe, which I'm sure you will try to dismiss:

 

1) If when a believer dies there is no God, what is he missing out on? If when a non-believer dies, he finds there is a God, what is he missing out on?

 

2) In my experiences, the common, normal, every-day believer seems to be a much happier, much more positive person than an atheist. I'm not talking about crusaders from thousands of years ago or kooks that "kill in the name of God." I'm talking about John and Jane Doe who live next door.

[Husker_x]

As far as the out of body experiences and the nuerochemistry involved in that happening, your talking to someone who believes in God and that God can do whatever he wants/when he wants, so yes I think that this can happen if God wants it to. If I did not believe in God, I would think I was crazy just like you probably think I am and Mr. Wiese is.

 

That kind of freedom from reality must be liberating.

 

I'm not normally one to debate whether God does or does not exist, especially with someone that does not believe. You are entitled to your beliefs, just like anyone else.

 

Progress was slow in that, but true enough.

 

But please, do not present your beliefs as "reality" simply because you consider them to be easier to "prove." You cannot prove that there is no God or that people experience OBEs, just like I cannot prove that there is a God or that people experience OBEs, no matter how "educated" you seem to think that you are. That's why it's called "faith." All I know is that things happen which science cannot explain, and I feel that it is due to the presence of a higher power.

 

Which belief am I advancing or claim did I make? When did I try to prove a god does not exist? If you notice the title of the thread, it says "Please Believe." It then goes on to claim that hell exists, and can be demonstrated to exist based on the bathroom-wall-of-internet website featuring a story about a man who claims to have laid down one night and seen it at three o'clock in the morning. I point out the agonizingly obvious problems with this tale, and the response is: "Well I believe in God, so therefore I believe this, too."

 

Believe what you like. Get angry at me if you want. Deny that neuroscience and the science of death and dreams has anything to say about the experiences we're discussing. Enshroud yourself with the mist of faith and gut feelings at the expense of skeptical inquiry. But in the process let's not conflate the issue. I made no statement about a god at all. In fact I'm purposely trying to avoid the issue. I'm even conceding that a god exists for the sake of argument––I still think you can kick this bunk to the curb.

 

Two point as to whether one should believe, which I'm sure you will try to dismiss:

 

1) If when a believer dies there is no God, what is he missing out on? If when a non-believer dies, he finds there is a God, what is he missing out on?

 

Pascal's Wager. Only partially effective if you have one God/option in the wager. Sadly there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of possible deities. Even if I picked one to accept the wager and try to stay on the safe side, I should still expect as a matter of sheer probability to have guessed wrong and face the consequences, if applicable.

 

2) In my experiences, the common, normal, every-day believer seems to be a much happier, much more positive person than an atheist. I'm not talking about crusaders from thousands of years ago or kooks that "kill in the name of God." I'm talking about John and Jane Doe who live next door.

 

I don't know if this is a point or an observation. How many religious people do you know and how many atheists do you know? Based upon that criteria, how have you made the determination that one group tends towards positivity and happiness as opposed to the other, or confirmed that their belief or non belief in a god is the only major factor? For a sample size to be statistically significant, you would have to know a lot of people on an intimate level. I'm an atheist and I'm pretty optimistic and happy most of the time. How do I fit into this picture?

[bennychico11]

1) If when a believer dies there is no God, what is he missing out on? If when a non-believer dies, he finds there is a God, what is he missing out on?

 

Pascal's Wager. Only partially effective if you have one God/option in the wager. Sadly there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of possible deities. Even if I picked one to accept the wager and try to stay on the safe side, I should still expect as a matter of sheer probability to have guessed wrong and face the consequences, if applicable.

 

not only from a non-believer is Pascal's Wager BS...but it should also be from a believer's standpoint. If an omnipotent/omnipresent god can't see through a non-believer saying he believes just so he has all his bases covered so he doesn't go to hell...?? I would hope an all mighty, powerful being who can read your thoughts would see right through that.

 

 

a god who invents hell in order to make us believe in him...and then says we have the 'choice' to worship him or not at the threat of eternal torture. That's much like the mafia boss with the gun to your head telling you to pay up or else.

If he's the one who gave us free will and the ability to use our brains for rational thought...I would hope he'd expect me to use it for such.

[bennychico11]

2) In my experiences, the common, normal, every-day believer seems to be a much happier, much more positive person than an atheist. I'm not talking about crusaders from thousands of years ago or kooks that "kill in the name of God." I'm talking about John and Jane Doe who live next door.

 

I too would disagree.

I consider myself an atheist and I feel pretty happy most the time. I've got a job, I like my family, I'm getting married and spending a week in Cancun pretty soon....If anything, the absence of a belief in god has helped me become more happy.