Please Believe

[knapplc]

not only from a non-believer is Pascal's Wager BS...but it should also be from a believer's standpoint. If an omnipotent/omnipresent god can't see through a non-believer saying he believes just so he has all his bases covered so he doesn't go to hell...?? I would hope an all mighty, powerful being who can read your thoughts would see right through that.

 

 

a god who invents hell in order to make us believe in him...and then says we have the 'choice' to worship him or not at the threat of eternal torture. That's much like the mafia boss with the gun to your head telling you to pay up or else.

If he's the one who gave us free will and the ability to use our brains for rational thought...I would hope he'd expect me to use it for such.

 

This is where the gears started grinding for me, and where they eventually just ground to a complete halt. Some personal stuff also happened that made me stop ignoring the doubts I've had. If Heaven & Hell both exist, this reality is a farce. There's no reason for this - if God loves me, and wants me to be with Him in heaven, why not just put me there? An Omnipotent God has no reason to filter humanity through this reality. There should be no consequences, no separation needing to be bridged, no belief system, and no evidence contrary to the existence of God. Free Will is a fine explanation until you get into the unconditional love part, because unconditional love means I don't have to jump through hoops to earn something.

 

If God loved me so much that he sent his only-begotten Son to die for me on the cross, why not skip that part and use his God magic to bring me to heaven now? Why make me suffer in this existence? Why make me a Believer, then allow me to find evidence that breaks that belief? If I'm truly so loved, why am I not in heaven right now? Why am I down here in the craps, watching people I love wither and die?

[knapplc]

2) In my experiences, the common, normal, every-day believer seems to be a much happier, much more positive person than an atheist. I'm not talking about crusaders from thousands of years ago or kooks that "kill in the name of God." I'm talking about John and Jane Doe who live next door.

 

I too would disagree.

I consider myself an atheist and I feel pretty happy most the time. I've got a job, I like my family, I'm getting married and spending a week in Cancun pretty soon....If anything, the absence of a belief in god has helped me become more happy.

 

I don't think belief in God or belief in no god makes a person more happy. It's an individual thing, like your taste in music or wine. If you like it, if it's not hurting you or others, I'm happy for you and I hope you enjoy a long, happy life in or out of a belief system. If it's hurtful to you or others, I wish you would change.

 

I guess I see religion a lot like alcohol. Lots of people drink and enjoy it and it enriches their lives. Bully for them. Some people, alcohol destroys. Those people need to be saved from alcohol, and go through treatment. I suppose you could make an argument that the angst some former Theists feel is as corrosive to them as alcoholism, but those are (in my anecdotal opinion) a few and far between breed.

[Husker_x]

We can go on and on about all this stuff for hours. Your views will not change and mine will not change, so this discussion is like discussing if we should fire Shawn Watson or not. It will never get anywhere. I will say let's just agree to disagree. I should have known this thread would turn into Christianity vs. atheism just by reading some of the other threads about religion in this forum. But, afterall, it is the religion subforum and I enjoy discussing religion and am proud of my beliefs even if some people think I am crazy and have no sense of reality. But I did enjoy hearing your thoughts on the topic and I do respect your opinion, Husker X. By the way, you should become a debate coach. Your pretty good at it.

 

Go in peace, then. I would like to point out, though, that I tried my darndest to stay away from God and religion. My point in referencing it along with the claims of Mr. Wiese was to show that even if you believe in one, you don't have to accept the other. I consider them to be separate issues. Feel free to start other topics. This subforum needs the help.

 

Thanks for the kind comments.

 

This is where the gears started grinding for me, and where they eventually just ground to a complete halt. Some personal stuff also happened that made me stop ignoring the doubts I've had. If Heaven & Hell both exist, this reality is a farce. There's no reason for this - if God loves me, and wants me to be with Him in heaven, why not just put me there? An Omnipotent God has no reason to filter humanity through this reality. There should be no consequences, no separation needing to be bridged, no belief system, and no evidence contrary to the existence of God. Free Will is a fine explanation until you get into the unconditional love part, because unconditional love means I don't have to jump through hoops to earn something.

 

If God loved me so much that he sent his only-begotten Son to die for me on the cross, why not skip that part and use his God magic to bring me to heaven now? Why make me suffer in this existence? Why make me a Believer, then allow me to find evidence that breaks that belief? If I'm truly so loved, why am I not in heaven right now? Why am I down here in the craps, watching people I love wither and die?

 

Preach, brother.

 

I can say from my experience that once you've deconverted, the full measure of just how idiotically unnecessary most of the stuff you believed about this alleged 'plan' was. When you actually step back and look at the cliff notes of what this celestial entity has managed to come up with for our betterment, it's enough to make your nose bleed.

 

a god who invents hell in order to make us believe in him...and then says we have the 'choice' to worship him or not at the threat of eternal torture. That's much like the mafia boss with the gun to your head telling you to pay up or else.

If he's the one who gave us free will and the ability to use our brains for rational thought...I would hope he'd expect me to use it for such.

 

Hey Benny, Reminds me of one of my favorite Hitchslaps.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

not only from a non-believer is Pascal's Wager BS...but it should also be from a believer's standpoint. If an omnipotent/omnipresent god can't see through a non-believer saying he believes just so he has all his bases covered so he doesn't go to hell...?? I would hope an all mighty, powerful being who can read your thoughts would see right through that.

 

 

a god who invents hell in order to make us believe in him...and then says we have the 'choice' to worship him or not at the threat of eternal torture. That's much like the mafia boss with the gun to your head telling you to pay up or else.

If he's the one who gave us free will and the ability to use our brains for rational thought...I would hope he'd expect me to use it for such.

 

This is where the gears started grinding for me, and where they eventually just ground to a complete halt. Some personal stuff also happened that made me stop ignoring the doubts I've had. If Heaven & Hell both exist, this reality is a farce. There's no reason for this - if God loves me, and wants me to be with Him in heaven, why not just put me there? An Omnipotent God has no reason to filter humanity through this reality. There should be no consequences, no separation needing to be bridged, no belief system, and no evidence contrary to the existence of God. Free Will is a fine explanation until you get into the unconditional love part, because unconditional love means I don't have to jump through hoops to earn something.

 

If God loved me so much that he sent his only-begotten Son to die for me on the cross, why not skip that part and use his God magic to bring me to heaven now? Why make me suffer in this existence? Why make me a Believer, then allow me to find evidence that breaks that belief? If I'm truly so loved, why am I not in heaven right now? Why am I down here in the craps, watching people I love wither and die?

 

God did not "invent" hell for man. He created hell for Satan and his followers. I heard an analogy once when someone asked why everyone is just not allowed into heaven. If someone who did not know you came to your home and asked to stay there with him, what would your answer be? Probably no. So why would God allow someone who doesn't know him access to his home? All he asks is that you believe Jesus Christ is your savior and he rose from the dead to save us from sin and you will be allowed into heaven. Thats really not that much to ask for if you ask me. I try and ask for forgiveness every night for my wrongdoings during the day. And there are a lot. I try, but Im not perfect and I admit that. Jesus says tell people you know me and I will plead for you to my father.

 

God does love you and he wants you in heaven. But he also wants you to grow closer to him and love him also. Its a two way street. And who said life is suppose to be easy? God wants you to turn to him when your feeling despair and hopelessness. Everyone has a purpose on Earth to do what is called of you through God's will. If you decide you don't want to do that, then you are basically telling God to go screw himself. And when people die, it means they have already fulfilled their purpose on Earth, whatever that may be. There have been times where I have been depressed and hopeless and I think to myself why is God doing this to me? And those things can easily break my faith, but they don't. They only make me turn to God more and it really does help me.

 

I'll just put it this way. We are all God's children. He loves us and wants us to be in heaven with him. If you had a son that told you to shove it where the sun don't shine and never talked to you again, you'd be pretty angry and you won't have any relationship with that child. But you will never give up hope for a relationship with that child and you will do your best to create a relationship with him. But if that child calls you and apologizes for what he said and wants to have a relationship with you, as a parent, you will be extremely happy and love to start a relationship with your son. Same thing with God. If you tell him to shove it where the sun don't shine, he will not have a relationship with you when you die. But he will not abandon you. (That is actually one of my favorite lines at church: when we turned our backs on you and lost our way, you did not abandon me to the poswer of death.)He will still call you even if you do not answer. If you call him and ask for his forgiveness and ask to have a relationship with him, he will have that relationship with you.

[bennychico11]

If someone who did not know you came to your home and asked to stay there with him, what would your answer be? Probably no. So why would God allow someone who doesn't know him access to his home

 

the difference is your god apparently DOES know them.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

 

this is the same god who knows when you have an impure thought, when you pray for help or when you do something bad.

 

All he asks is that you believe Jesus Christ is your savior and he rose from the dead to save us from sin and you will be allowed into heaven. Thats really not that much to ask for if you ask me.

 

I question a god who sacrifices himself to himself so that he doesn't have to hold the blame for sending his own flawed creation to hell. If I was an all powerful being, I'd just get rid of Satan and hell (of which he both created). That's moral.

 

I'll just put it this way. We are all God's children. He loves us and wants us to be in heaven with him. If you had a son that told you to shove it where the sun don't shine and never talked to you again, you'd be pretty angry and you won't have any relationship with that child. But you will never give up hope for a relationship with that child and you will do your best to create a relationship with him. But if that child calls you and apologizes for what he said and wants to have a relationship with you, as a parent, you will be extremely happy and love to start a relationship with your son. Same thing with God. If you tell him to shove it where the sun don't shine, he will not have a relationship with you when you die. But he will not abandon you. (That is actually one of my favorite lines at church: when we turned our backs on you and lost our way, you did not abandon me to the poswer of death.)He will still call you even if you do not answer. If you call him and ask for his forgiveness and ask to have a relationship with him, he will have that relationship with you.

 

if you're going to use the child analogy, let me ask you this.

Is there anything your son/daughter could ever do, including not loving you, that would make you lock them in your basement and torture them for all eternity? If your child was a good individual who did good or great things with his life but just didn't love you as a parent....does that justify you torturing them? How about if your child didn't even know who you were? He still goes to hell?

I'd like to think that you too are more moral than your god.

[Ratt Mhule]

If someone who did not know you came to your home and asked to stay there with him, what would your answer be? Probably no. So why would God allow someone who doesn't know him access to his home

 

the difference is your god apparently DOES know them.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

 

this is the same god who knows when you have an impure thought, when you pray for help or when you do something bad.

 

I didn't say God doesn't know him, I said he does not know God.

 

I just want to ask you guys this question. What do you think of the writers of the Bible? Just a bunch of pot smoking hippies that got together 2,000+ years ago and said let's just write a bunch of crap in a book and say it is the word of an all-powerful being when it is really our word to trick people 2,000 years from now. Boy, that would be hilarious!

 

Matthew: Okay, where should we start? How many days do you think it would take this all-powerful being to create the world?

Luke: I don't know, six days and he rested on the seventh!

John: Brilliant Luke!

Mark: This whole plan is brilliant! This is really gonna screw with these people's minds. Hey, pass the joint...

 

Well, you know, its nice to know there were crazy people 2,000 years ago that believed in God just like myself.

 

if you're going to use the child analogy, let me ask you this.

Is there anything your son/daughter could ever do, including not loving you, that would make you lock them in your basement and torture them for all eternity? If your child was a good individual who did good or great things with his life but just didn't love you as a parent....does that justify you torturing them? How about if your child didn't even know who you were? He still goes to hell?

I'd like to think that you too are more moral than your god

 

Now your just stealing lines from that atheist tv show you posted a few weeks/months ago. Ya, I watched it. Its so easy to be on the side that says prove it to me when they know dang well there is ABSOLUTELY no way to 100% prove it. Oh well, since you can't prove it and I can't see it, it isn't there. Its like me trying to stick up for Shawn Watson saying well he will be better next year. Well there is no way to prove he will be better. Its a lot easier for me to say he sucks because of what happened this year and Ive seen it with my own eyes than to stand up for him.

[Husker_x]

If someone who did not know you came to your home and asked to stay there with him, what would your answer be? Probably no. So why would God allow someone who doesn't know him access to his home

 

the difference is your god apparently DOES know them.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

 

this is the same god who knows when you have an impure thought, when you pray for help or when you do something bad.

 

I didn't say God doesn't know him, I said he does not know God.

 

I just want to ask you guys this question. What do you think of the writers of the Bible? Just a bunch of pot smoking hippies that got together 2,000+ years ago and said let's just write a bunch of crap in a book and say it is the word of an all-powerful being when it is really our word to trick people 2,000 years from now. Boy, that would be hilarious!

 

Matthew: Okay, where should we start? How many days do you think it would take this all-powerful being to create the world?

Luke: I don't know, six days and he rested on the seventh!

John: Brilliant Luke!

Mark: This whole plan is brilliant! This is really gonna screw with these people's minds. Hey, pass the joint...

 

Well, you know, its nice to know there were crazy people 2,000 years ago that believed in God just like myself.

 

Um. You do know that the gospels were written anonymously and do not contain a creation story, right?

 

I'm afraid your either/or scenario that the authors were directed by a god or were smoking weed betrays the fact that you don't have any idea how complex and intricate the composition and transmission of what we've come to know as the bible was. It wasn't an event. It was a process. A long one. There's an entire field of scholarly textual criticism devoted to this topic.

[HuskersNow]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

[Ratt Mhule]

If someone who did not know you came to your home and asked to stay there with him, what would your answer be? Probably no. So why would God allow someone who doesn't know him access to his home

 

the difference is your god apparently DOES know them.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you

 

this is the same god who knows when you have an impure thought, when you pray for help or when you do something bad.

 

I didn't say God doesn't know him, I said he does not know God.

 

I just want to ask you guys this question. What do you think of the writers of the Bible? Just a bunch of pot smoking hippies that got together 2,000+ years ago and said let's just write a bunch of crap in a book and say it is the word of an all-powerful being when it is really our word to trick people 2,000 years from now. Boy, that would be hilarious!

 

Matthew: Okay, where should we start? How many days do you think it would take this all-powerful being to create the world?

Luke: I don't know, six days and he rested on the seventh!

John: Brilliant Luke!

Mark: This whole plan is brilliant! This is really gonna screw with these people's minds. Hey, pass the joint...

 

Well, you know, its nice to know there were crazy people 2,000 years ago that believed in God just like myself.

 

Um. You do know that the gospels were written anonymously and do not contain a creation story, right?

 

I'm afraid your either/or scenario that the authors were directed by a god or were smoking weed betrays the fact that you don't have any idea how complex and intricate the composition and transmission of what we've come to know as the bible was. It wasn't an event. It was a process. A long one. There's an entire field of scholarly textual criticism devoted to this topic.

 

Im afraid you missed the sarcasm in my post. Maybe I should have put next to that entire conversation. And Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the writers of the Gospel. You know how I know, because I hear it every Sunday, the holy Gospel according to insert name.

[Ratt Mhule]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

[HuskersNow]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

I need evidence. Show me the evidence and I will believe.

[Ratt Mhule]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

I need evidence. Show me the evidence and I will believe.

 

So easy to say isn't it.

 

Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, today I will try to convince HuskersNow that God is in fact real. God will you please reveal yourself to HuskersNow. God...God...Um...

 

This is not a court room and I cannot prove beyond a reason of a doubt that God exists. Its called faith. If you can show me evidence on the contrary I will admit I am wrong and you are right. It works both ways.

[HuskersNow]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

I need evidence. Show me the evidence and I will believe.

 

So easy to say isn't it.

In other words, you don't have any.

[Ratt Mhule]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

I need evidence. Show me the evidence and I will believe.

 

So easy to say isn't it.

In other words, you don't have any.

 

Where is your proof? Now give me my +1

[HuskersNow]

I don't think it matters who wrote the Bible. The real question is whether or not there is enough evidence to support the events that are portrayed in the Bible.

 

So why do you believe what is written in the Bible, but discard the accounts from other holy books? What makes the Bible so unique?

 

Because that is my right. Why don't you believe in the bible?

I need evidence. Show me the evidence and I will believe.

 

So easy to say isn't it.

 

Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, today I will try to convince HuskersNow that God is in fact real. God will you please reveal yourself to HuskersNow. God...God...Um...

 

This is not a court room and I cannot prove beyond a reason of a doubt that God exists. Its called faith. If you can show me evidence on the contrary I will admit I am wrong and you are right. It works both ways.

It is literally impossible to prove a negative. It does not work both ways, The burden of proof lies with you. How about this, you don't even have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he exists, just that he is more likely to exist than not.