Top Saudi Cleric Issues Fatwa: Destroy Churches

[carlfense]

Interesting commentary about the reciprocity (or lack of) between Islam and Christianity.

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/03/25/top-saudi-cleric-issues-fatwa-destroy-churches/

 

It has long been a sore point in these conversations that while predominantly Christian countries offer Muslim immigrants and visitors full rights of religious expression, including the freedom to build mosques, there is no reciprocity. Christians are widely persecuted and discriminated against across the Islamic world, and mob violence and murder is depressingly common in some countries.

[T_O_Bull]

And they call themselves religious leaders, more like hate mongers if you ask me. I have to think that if mr. unpronounceable name lived over here he'd be a member of the KKK.

T_O_B

[carlfense]

And they call themselves religious leaders, more like hate mongers if you ask me. I have to think that if mr. unpronounceable name lived over here he'd be a member of the KKK.

T_O_B

Agreed.

[Excel]

WTF, I issue fatwas almost weekly and I rarely if ever get this kind of media attention...what a bunch of bull...damn the left wing media.

[zoogs]

They are certainly more militant and way over the line, but the sentiment is grounded in similar roots as "Don't build the Mosque in the first place." Christians are not all that virtuous (as a group) as the opener implies, and nor are the world's Muslims represented by this one guy.

 

If anything this is more of a divide between the more humane -- or maybe just more politically correct -- world of the United States, versus the wholly one-state-religion climate of the middle eastern countries.

 

Can any other religion, Muslims ask, show such a record of aggression, conquest, exploitation and discrimination as those who claim to follow Jesus Christ?

 

lol.

[Excel]

They are certainly more militant and way over the line, but the sentiment is grounded in similar roots as "Don't build the Mosque in the first place." Christians are not all that virtuous (as a group) as the opener implies, and nor are the world's Muslims represented by this one guy.

 

If anything this is more of a divide between the more humane -- or maybe just more politically correct -- world of the United States, versus the wholly one-state-religion climate of the middle eastern countries.

 

Can any other religion, Muslims ask, show such a record of aggression, conquest, exploitation and discrimination as those who claim to follow Jesus Christ?

 

lol.

No, not all that virtuous but the socities we've built are, by and large, the most tolerant in the world. You can't even bring a bible in to Saudi Arabia let alone build a church.

 

I'm all for tolerance but eventually, if we allow it to get out of hand, it will destroy us. For example, how many emigrants from predominately Muslim countries now live in Sweden? Nearly 500,000 of a population of nine million. Allowed to practice whatever religion they choose and they've built nearly 20 mosques.

 

Now how many Swedes live on the Arab Street? How many Lutheran churches do we see in Turkey, Morocco or Saudi Arabia?

 

I have a hard time with this. I'm a tolerant man and I support the whole American Immigrant narrative...even today, but religious tolerance in Europe confuses that ideal for me. Yes, people should be able to worship as they choose but I can't help but feel that the melting pot mentality is going to destroy what is, at least for me, the home of my forefathers. I don't consider myself nationalist, or racist, or in any other way prejudiced but I'm just saying... most other countries get a wide licenses to preserve their culture. Why can't we?

[zoogs]

I agree with that about our society. I'm glad the US is the dominant superpower in world affairs, just because who else would do it with as much of a conscience?

 

Are you saying, though, that 20 mosques and 500,000 muslism is destroying Sweden?

 

I also don't know how religiously tolerant Europe is. I'm not very aware of that situation but France seems to have some issues...

 

American culture has always been a melting pot, cobbled together from a wide variety of sources. Better a melting pot than a salad bowl, but really religion has nothing to do with cultural unity, or it shouldn't, because America isn't a Christian nation anyway -- do atheists, Hindus, or Jews draw the same worries? We have always been cobbled together from a mix of others, accepting and assimilating all, and letting all contribute to what 'American' means.

 

Plus, this isn't the home of our forefathers. Not if you go back for enough. We're all immigrants, except for the natives.

[Excel]

I agree with that about our society. I'm glad the US is the dominant superpower in world affairs, just because who else would do it with as much of a conscience?

 

Are you saying, though, that 20 mosques and 500,000 muslism is destroying Sweden?

 

I also don't know how religiously tolerant Europe is. I'm not very aware of that situation but France seems to have some issues...

 

American culture has always been a melting pot, cobbled together from a wide variety of sources. Better a melting pot than a salad bowl, but really religion has nothing to do with cultural unity, or it shouldn't, because America isn't a Christian nation anyway -- do atheists, Hindus, or Jews draw the same worries? We have always been cobbled together from a mix of others, accepting and assimilating all, and letting all contribute to what 'American' means.

 

Plus, this isn't the home of our forefathers. Not if you go back for enough. We're all immigrants, except for the natives.

"Are immigrants to Europe destroying the continent's culture?" I don't know but I and many others have that fear.

 

Many 'Muslim' Immigrant groups combine a high birth rate with an intolerant, religious zeal and that could very well destroy the Europe that we know and where so many of us trace our roots. Now there are holes in that train of thought...no, not all Immigrants have issues assimilating or want to change their new homes and those groups probably will not maintain such high birth rates but its still something to think about.

 

"Really religion has nothing to do with cultural unity"

 

That's a horribly flawed thought. "Culture" has many dimensions...language, religion, a shared history and place of origin, food, sports, literature, music, art and music...and the more of those things a people share with one another the more unified that group will be. I'd venture to argue that in most regions of the Old World, religion is one of the overarching segments of a region or a peoples' culture.

 

You can argue that it shouldn't be like that but it is. America is a unique case, sure, but even here you can see religion as a marker of many of our subcultures. Lutheranism and Catholicism throughout the Midwest. Baptist churches are popular in the South and among African Americans. Mormonism in the West and particularly in Utah. I can go on and on. Religion is very important in defining culture.

 

America isn't a Christian nation? No not legally, but its people predominately have been and will probably remain that way. The whole idea that early Americans came to this continent for religious freedom has been perverted. The pilgrims came to establish states where everyone was free to practice their religion, as in English Dissentism or "Puritanism." Not ​whatever religion they choose. They burned witches remember?

 

"Do atheists, Hindus, or Jews draw the same worries?"

 

For some but not for me because, excluding atheism which is a poor example, the countries in which those religions predominate are fairly tolerant. It'd be fair to assume that those people that made those nations are just as tolerant on the whole. You can build a church in India or Israel. Both have large religious minorities that they tolerate. Both India and Israel have large numbers of Muslims and smaller numbers of Christians; India has Sikh's and Buddhists while Israel has Druze and Bahá'í. Both groups don't prosthelytize, and certainly not forcefully like adherents of Islam (and yes Christianity) have been known to and when it comes to the Jews those are people that we have a long history with. Look at most Jews in America today, they have German and Polish surnames for a reason...

 

Look, I don't have a problem with Muslims. I'm not some Xenophobe. It's just something to ponder.

[strigori]

It would be exactly like the Middle East if Christians actually had nations run by church leaders. History books are full of the proof, even American history.

 

The difference is the Western cultures actually advanced after the middle ages. Most of the nations in the Middle east have more in common with their own 14th century nations than the modern West. Its sad really. There was a time when that part of the world was one of the highest centers of learning, then the religious leaders got control, and everything flatlined.