Excel Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) So we had a lively but civil discussion in a status update about this article but it's probably more appropriate for this forum. I don't like to talk politics but I did enjoy the discussion and the topic is worth exploring if anyone cared to continue on it. Potential areas of discussion: - Far-right politics in Europe, especially Eastern Europe - Polish History - The state of Polish politics today - Polish-American/EU/Russian relations - Nazis and Fascists, specifically in Poland or more broadly the region and Europe - Whether or not this was a fascist parade or to what extent it was a fascist parade - What, if anything, we should do about all of it Edited November 12, 2017 by Excel Learning how to embed tweets in to topics Link to comment
Excel Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) Edited November 12, 2017 by Excel Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Haven’t you heard? It’s White supremacy to love your country and be proud of your culture. It’s also a sign of patriarchal oppression. Link to comment
zoogs Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) Uh, do you follow Jack Posobiec? -- I think the concern, as it were, is who organized this and what they billed themselves as. And the worry that those who aren't themselves fascists don't mind them, and are happy to find common cause with them...and why. The far-right in Europe isn't a phenomenon that seems dismissable at this point. Of course, perhaps one might argue that they've got the right idea. I emphatically reject the idea that they aren't in power yet, and therefore shrug. We often think of things as cartoonishly unrealistic. Reality is sobering, and it's important to recognize that. You might say the craziest of the crazies in the US are extremely rare and fringe, also. But it is always worth reaffirming a condemnation of what they stand for. 6 minutes ago, GBR0988 said: Haven’t you heard? It’s White supremacy to love your country and be proud of your culture. It’s also a sign of patriarchal oppression. I wouldn't call it 'white supremacy' per se, but there's probably some kind of term for wanting to rid your country of Jews and I don't think "love of country and culture" is it. Edited November 12, 2017 by zoogs 2 Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, zoogs said: Do you follow Jack Posobiec? -- I think the concern, as it were, is who organized this and what they billed themselves as. And the worry that those who aren't themselves fascists don't mind them, and are happy to find common cause with them...and why. The far-right in Europe isn't a phenomenon that seems dismissable at this point. Of course, perhaps one might argue that they've got the right idea. I emphatically reject the idea that they aren't in power yet, and therefore shrug. We often think of things as cartoonishly unrealistic. Reality is sobering, and it's important to recognize that. You might say the craziest of the crazies in the US are extremely rare and fringe, also. But it is always worth reaffirming a condemnation of what they stand for. Never heard of him. My understanding is, it has more to do with keeping radicals out of their country and putting the safety of their citizens and ideals first. Granted, I know very little about this. Edited November 12, 2017 by GBR0988 Link to comment
knapplc Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I like their sausage. 1 Link to comment
zoogs Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 keeping radicals out of their country and putting the safety of their citizens and ideals That's a hell of a euphemism for: - '...organized by a nationalist youth movement that seeks an ethnically pure Poland with fewer Jews or Muslims.' - 'carrying banners that read “White Europe,” “Europe Will Be White” and “Clean Blood.' - '“There are of course nationalists and fascists at this march ...I’m fine with it."' - 'The Radical Camp presents itself as the heir to a 1930s fascist movement of the same name, which fought to rid Poland of Jews in the years just before the Holocaust. A second group, All Polish Youth, also named after an anti-Jewish interwar movement, co-organized it.' - 'The group has regularly held events to mark a 1936 pogrom against Jews. Its symbols were displayed on a banner that appeared over a Warsaw bridge, reading: “Pray for Islamic Holocaust.” As for the recent significance, I think this aspect made me think it was newsworthy: - "The Radical Camp has been holding independence-day marches since 2009. Until several years ago, it struggled to attract more than a few hundred people" 1 Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 9 minutes ago, zoogs said: Uh, do you follow Jack Posobiec? -- I think the concern, as it were, is who organized this and what they billed themselves as. And the worry that those who aren't themselves fascists don't mind them, and are happy to find common cause with them...and why. The far-right in Europe isn't a phenomenon that seems dismissable at this point. Of course, perhaps one might argue that they've got the right idea. I emphatically reject the idea that they aren't in power yet, and therefore shrug. We often think of things as cartoonishly unrealistic. Reality is sobering, and it's important to recognize that. You might say the craziest of the crazies in the US are extremely rare and fringe, also. But it is always worth reaffirming a condemnation of what they stand for. I wouldn't call it 'white supremacy' per se, but there's probably some kind of term for wanting to rid your country of Jews and I don't think "love of country and culture" is it. To be honest with you, I’m not seeing too much about wanting to rid the country of Jews....I’m seeing more of this kind of stuff. Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 But again, you’re arguing about who organized it and I’m just reading about the event itself. That’s our disconnect. Link to comment
zoogs Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) That image is from 2016. This is 2017. So, I'm curious. Where are you doing your reading? I'm also reading about the event itself. My quotes were from the WSJ article posted above. Of course, it should be noted that there isn't a hint of criticism about Polish Independence there. The chief and only concern expressed therein is the nature of the recent draw. Edited November 12, 2017 by zoogs Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 1 minute ago, zoogs said: That image is from 2016. This is 2017. So, I'm curious. Where are you doing your reading? The tweets above Link to comment
zoogs Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I didn't see it in any of those tweets. Can you post the one it was from? Link to comment
GBR0988 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 1 minute ago, zoogs said: I didn't see it in any of those tweets. Can you post the one it was from? https://mobile.twitter.com/PeterSweden7/status/929487996931452930?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huskerboard.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsystem%26controller%3Dembed%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FPeterSweden7%2Fstatus%2F929487996931452930 Link to comment
zoogs Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) That picture isn't in this tweet, or in the article the tweet links to. Where, again? ... -- I'm also trying to find out about the source of that article in this tweet, VoiceOfEurope.com. There's virtually nothing on it; a Google search yielded their own pages, plus a Gateway Pundit (notorious garbage site) post protesting the fact that Twitter shut down this outlet's account at one point, and this Quora page: https://www.quora.com/Is-Voice-of-Europe-a-fake-news-site-run-by-Russian-trolls-based-in-pro-Russia-countries The answer on Quora (that it's a disinformation site) seems to be fair, for what it's worth. -- I don't think it's clear from the WSJ article which side was "more" prevalent. I don't think that's the top issue at stake. Edited November 12, 2017 by zoogs Link to comment
Excel Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, zoogs said: Do you follow Jack Posobiec? No, I don't know who that is (I mean, I do now because I googled but up until now)...he doesn't seem like someone who would interest me. 48 minutes ago, zoogs said: I think the concern, as it were, is who organized this and what they billed themselves as. And the worry that those who aren't themselves fascists don't mind them, and are happy to find common cause with them...and why. I would imagine the actual fascists that showed up to this cloaked themselves in a respectable Catholic and reasonably patriotic image. To the average conservative Pole those are attractive ideas and they might show up to something they put on. Why is Patriotism and ultra-Nationalism in vogue in Poland? Because they haven't really had their own country in almost 200 years. Imperial powers, Fascists and Communists have all tried to suppress or eliminate the Polish identity and people so, understandably, they're pretty proud and happy that they have a country again. The Fascists tried to eliminate them as a people and the Communists tried to destroy their religion so naturally they gravitate to those things. A better question is why there are fascists in Poland at all? Or Ukraine, or the Baltic states?....how large are they, what are their goals and motivation, etc? I would say that actual Nazi-style fascist groups in those countries are small. They're mostly young, un-and-underemployed/educated men in underdeveloped regions who are frustrated. There is prosperity and growth in those countries, and much like Brexit and Trump voters, they feel left behind because they aren't getting a part of it. When you already don't have a chair at the table the idea of welcoming more people in to the dining room isn't exactly appealing thus the anti-migrant position. They see the EU as trying to force migration and other liberal policies on their governments and also see the Russian government trying to extend influence in their former satellites. So these are patriotic, religious, conservative, euro-skeptical and anti-Russian young men who want change so they can get at the table, they also don't want migrants who in this particular case are a different ethnicity and religion than them. It's quite easy to see how they slide in to Nazi or Fascist groups because the ideology checks most of the boxes, remove the anti-slav bits from Nazi thought and it becomes an almost perfect act of rebellion for them, a giant middle finger to the the ideas and people they don't like. These people, the actual fascists, are not in power and don't wield any real influence. Just like anarchists with liberal movements they hijack conservative rallies or marches and bait-and-switch people that lean their direction. Their number is over exaggerated by media on either side of them for their own purposes. Liberals in the EU and America love to play them up and brand all conservatives in Central/Eastern Europe as Nazis for a variety of reasons, partly because I don't think they are knowledgeable enough to tell the difference. "We want God" is not a Nazi or Fascist chant and the Home Army Anchor symbol and armband is not a Nazi device, but to a liberal who wants to see Nazis everywhere they fit the bill. They also want to feel like crusaders against some Nazi monstrosity because it makes them feel better and it's to easier win moderate voters if you paint all conservatives as Nazis. The Russians also have an interest in labeling Ukrainian and Polish nationalists/conservatives as Nazis because it makes the war in Donbas and some of their subversive acts in Eastern Europe more palatable at home and abroad. They're doing the exact same thing in Syria. Every airstrike they conduct is against ISIS and Al Qaeda no matter who they actually hit because they can sell that better. 48 minutes ago, zoogs said: The far-right in Europe isn't a phenomenon that seems dismissable at this point. Of course, perhaps one might argue that they've got the right idea. I emphatically reject the idea that they aren't in power yet, and therefore shrug. We often think of things as cartoonishly unrealistic. Reality is sobering, and it's important to recognize that. You might say the craziest of the crazies in the US are extremely rare and fringe, also. But it is always worth reaffirming a condemnation of what they stand for. Nazis and Fascists are not in power anywhere or even close to it. Those are the people I consider to be far-right. I do not consider euro-skeptics, nationalists, or anti-immigration parties to be far-right. Those are reasonable political positions that reasonable people can hold, definitely right-wing but "far-right" carries a fascist connotation because it so often used to describe those groups. I think we probably differ on our definition of far-right. I absolutely condemn Nazis and Fascists and do not support them but I do support Poles and other eastern Europeans who want to build up their countries and their people how they see fit. If they don't want migrants or to subordinate themselves to Brussels that's their decision and we should respect it. We owe them that much after leaving World War Two only half fought. Waving a flag, chanting a nationalist or religious slogan, and not wanting migrants does not make a person a fascist. I've yet to see a photo or video of Nazi or fascist acts/symbolism from today's events in Poland. I'm sure they exist because we know that those people were out there but if there were really 60,000 of them or even 1000 of them we'd see a lot more of them. Edited November 12, 2017 by Excel Link to comment
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