knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc.... List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007 The lists go on and on. Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc.... List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008 List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007 The lists go on and on. Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong. LMAO... The Israelis do everything they can to destroy the Palestinian police, then complain that they are not policing rogue elements and more fanatical groups well enough. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Anti-Semitism. That's my guess. That was a disgusting low blow, you OWE him an apology. I will keep my current signature, until an apology is posted. It is an accusation with zero evidence to back it up, but so was his post. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop? I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks. Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Anti-Semitism. That's my guess. That was a disgusting low blow, you OWE him an apology. I will keep my current signature, until an apology is posted. It is an accusation with zero evidence to back it up, but so was his post. No, you won't. It's been removed. And to be fair, here's my apology: Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement. Thank you. It takes a big person to state that, which justifiably came as a result of real life experiences. Just to be clear, the Palestinians are also a Semetic people. And Cactus' criticisms were of the Israeli government, not the Israeli people. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well aware of all of that. Thanks. Link to comment
johnnyrodgers20 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So.... I say let's go, and you back off, saying I'm in over my head? WTF? Let's do this. Let's look at the times the truce has been broken, and let's see. It looks like you've been called and instead of showing your cards you've folded. Don't fold. Let's play the hand. Telling me to go look up and make a list of the last 25 was ridiculous. June 19, 2008 ceasefire Palestinian Center for Human Rights recorded several IDF violations in the early days of the lull: On 19 June 2008, just a few hours after the beginning of the ceasefire Israeli forces opened fire against fishermen and farmers in Gaza.[15] Also on 23 June, Israeli forces opened fire against children and farmers in northern Gaza Strip, wounding one of the farmers, Jameel 'Abdul Rahman al-Ghoul, 68, in the neck. And on 25 June, Israeli forces opened fire against farmers in southeastern Gaza Strip, inuring Salem Ahmed Abu Raida, 82, in the hand.[16] http://en.wikipedia....Hamas_ceasefire Palestinian center for human rights, hmm, I wonder how impartial they are, hmm? Link to comment
johnnyrodgers20 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop? I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks. Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop. I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime. Exactly. This has been shown to be true time after time after time after time. And it's not just one side doing it - it's both sides, like two bears constantly poking each other with sticks. It's naive to think that if one side stopped, the other side would suddenly stop, too. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop? I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks. Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop. I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime. Maybe so, but the current policy of Israeli occupation and heavy handed responses has been proven for decades not to work. Exactly. This has been shown to be true time after time after time after time. And it's not just one side doing it - it's both sides, like two bears constantly poking each other with sticks. It's naive to think that if one side stopped, the other side would suddenly stop, too. Wrong. It has never been shon to be untrue, because nothing like it has been tried. Read what I said (we're back to this), and tell me where/when it had been tried. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm referring to the myriad truces and ceasefires that have been tried, and all have failed. I suppose, conversely, I could ask you what evidence you have that would support the contention that a true peace would be possible, Sub. That may be an easier target for us to hit. I would love for your point to be true. I don't think anyone here in this message board has any desire for war over there. Peace in the Middle East would be the goal of everyone involved in this conversation, I believe. I just don't think it's possible. Link to comment
Cactusboy Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 From the start of the ceasefire at 6 AM on June 19 till the incident on November 4th cited by CNN, the following attacks were launched against Israel from Gaza in direct violation of the agreement: 18 mortars were fired at Israel in this period, beginning on the night of June 23. 20 rockets were fired, beginning on June 24, when 3 rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot. On July 6 farmers working in the fields of Nahal Oz were attacked by light arms fire from Gaza. On the night of August 15 Palestinians fired across the border at Israeli soldiers near the Karni crossing. On October 31 an IDF patrol spotted Palestinians planting an explosive device near the security fence in the area of the Sufa crossing. As the patrol approached the fence the Palestinians fired two anti-tank missiles. There were two Palestinian attempts to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel apparently to abduct Israelis. Both were major violations of the ceasefire. LINK Here's some more timely information on who broke the 2008 ceasefire and when. AGAIN...you are moving the gold posts. Israel broke the ceasefire hours after it started. If we have a staring contest and I blink first...I don't then point out that you blinked 5 seconds later. NOW...if a cease fire it broken..and then the other side hits back, there can be a sort of restart of the ceasefire. But it's still on record who broke it first. Willful ignorance is BIG TIME on your side. You're using all sorts of desparte debating tactics in this thread. No need to appologize for your guess about me. It has zero substance and you can't deny this fact. I also think you need to look up the offical def of the term you throw around. This is an account of when the ceasefire was broken in 2008 (just after it started, by rockets fired on June 23rd). Now, if you have some evidence that Israel did something prior to this, by all means, share it. Do you know, and I mean really know, without doubt, that the Israelis fired first? Or are you simply basing your point on a Wikipedia page, one that cites a biased source? You declaim the American news outlets for being biased - yet the "hours after it started" article was lifted from The Palestinian Information Center. Hardly unbiased. What I posted is not a "desparte debating tactic," it is a series of facts. We're not engaged in a staring contest, we're engaged in a conversation about facts. If you would like to discuss facts, then let's do so. AHHHHH...you make a valid point!! Let's research those shooting they claim happened...maybe it'lls how up from another source, or at least see if Israel talks about them anywhere. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Are you subjecting your Wiki page to the same vetting? That would only be fair. If we're going to quibble this much over sources, all sources must be put to equal tests. Or we could step back from the minutiae of this conversation and take it for granted that both sides, Israeli and Arab, have violated the peace. Numerous times. That's the olive branch I've held out to you from the beginning. It's still there. Link to comment
Cactusboy Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I started by checking out your link. Hamas didn't fire the rockets that is claimed to have broken the truce on the 23 or 25th. Hamas, the militant Islamic group that rules Gaza, promised to rein in the Iran- and Syria-backed faction that carried out the rocket attacks and pledged to remain committed to the truce that went into effect June 19 and urged restraint by all sides. here is why they did it. in a predawn raid, Israeli troops killed two Palestinians, one of them an Islamic Jihad area commander, in the West Bank city of Nablus.Islamic Jihad, a militant group backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for the rocket fire from Gaza. Although the West Bank is not included in the truce agreement, the group said the rockets were retaliation for the Nablus raid. http://www.boston.co...e+--+World+News I don't know why the west bank wasn't included in the cease fire. It's Israel that didn't/doesn't want it included....IMO it's so they can continue their kidnappings and assassinations and bulldozing and such during the ceasefire. Hamas should demand the WB is included in the ceasefire. Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza. I'll now go back to looking for more sources for the june 19th claims. Link to comment
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