Why would Israel attack Iran?

[Cactusboy]

"A Palestinian farmer had been injured in Gaza by the Israel Defense Forces on 23 June"

 

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/sc9379.doc.htm

[Cactusboy]

Here's yet another example of Arabs breaking a ceasefire with Israel:

 

 

 

Well that didn’t last long, did it. The Hamas-declared ceasefire lasted for the whole of Monday. Yesterday, as Israel’s troops tactfully departed Gaza so as not to rain on Obama’s parade gunmen in Gaza fired at IDF patrols in two separate incidents. Today, Ha’aretz reports:

The Israel Air Force on Tuesday attacked areas in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians fired mortar shells. The Israel Defense Forces said that about eight mortar shells were shot from near a central Gaza refugee camp, apparently by Hamas. Two of the shells landed in the Strip and the rest fell in open territory in the western Negev near the border. ... The Palestinians also fired light weapons into Israel on Tuesday, from both north and south of the Kissufim crossing. An explosive charge was also apparently set off.

Meanwhile, Jordan’s Petra news agency has reported that Hamas hijacked Jordanian aid trucks bound for UNRWA after they crossed into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom crossing yesterday. As the aid was unloaded, Hamas gunmen opened fire on them and forced the drivers to go to Hamas-run stores. And Ha’aretz reports:

The liaison office for civilian territories, meanwhile, said Hamas is intentionally harming humanitarian aid transferred from Israel by firing mortars at the Karni, Kissufim and Kerem Shalom crossings. The liaison office and Shin Bet security service both accused Hamas of looting trucks bringing supplies into Gaza. The Shin Bet also reported many instances since the cease-fire of Hamas members shooting and wounding Fatah activists in Gaza.

 

LINK

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm not putting links here to Israeli-broken ceasefires. I'm giving it as accepted that Israel has done this. The point of contention seems to be that Hamas/the Arabs have never done this. I'm simply showing that, as I've said all along, there is blame enough for both parties in this conflict, and neither side is to be looked at as "right" or "wrong."

 

Jan 2009?? The ceasefire expired in Dec 2008. There was no ceasefire that Hamas agreed to that could have been broken in Jan 2009.

[Cactusboy]

Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc....

 

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007

 

The lists go on and on.

 

Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong.

 

 

Is this just a list of rocket attacks or actualy breaking of ceasefires that Hamas agreed to? Please don't just throw crap against the wall hoping something will stick.

[Cactusboy]

Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc....

 

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008

 

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007

 

The lists go on and on.

 

Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong.

 

LMAO...

 

The Israelis do everything they can to destroy the Palestinian police, then complain that they are not policing rogue elements and more fanatical groups well enough.

 

Great point. They target Hamas police, which is a crime..and then complain when Hamas can't control the people in Gaza.

[Cactusboy]

Anti-Semitism. That's my guess.

 

That was a disgusting low blow, you OWE him an apology.

 

I will keep my current signature, until an apology is posted.

 

It is an accusation with zero evidence to back it up, but so was his post.

 

 

No, you won't. It's been removed.

 

And to be fair, here's my apology:

 

Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement.

 

 

Fair enough. That said, unless it's done over and over I don't care if someone guesses or says I'm anti-semetic, because I'll make the claim fall flat on it's face. I see it as an opportunity to address something that some may be thinking but don't want to say.

 

That said...since you have friends w/ the ADL, have you see this doc? It's by a Jewish Israeli and the subject it anti-semitism. I'd be curious what you and your friends say about it.

 

[Cactusboy]

Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement.

 

Thank you.

 

It takes a big person to state that, which justifiably came as a result of real life experiences.

 

Just to be clear, the Palestinians are also a Semetic people. And Cactus' criticisms were of the Israeli government, not the Israeli people.

 

to be more specific...not the Jewish people. The word "Israel" is not in the def of anti-semetism.

[knapplc]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

[johnnyrodgers20]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

Knapp I am going to give you some advice. We went round and round before on this subject. He will change and move the posts forever. He is right and you can't tell him a thing, the best you can do is just let him spout and throw up his little jabs and be done with it. He can't even say bombing a bus of innocent people is wrong without somehow tying it to the Israeli govt. and their policies that are the real cause of the killings. Just a little advice!!

[Cactusboy]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

 

I'm reinforcing the goalposts you placed.

 

 

Hamas is notorious for making ceasefire deals with Israel and then breaking them once the Israelis let their guard down. Believing that Hamas would adhere to a 10-year truce is a nice utopian view, but nobody anywhere trusts that.

 

http://www.huskerboa...post__p__919004

 

Hamas can't control every person in Gaza...just as our police can't control every person in a city. Hamas can and does greatly reduce makeshift rocket attacks just as our police can and do reduce crime. If Israel wants to be an honest broker of peace they should include the west bank in ceasefires. That way attacks there can't be used as justification for a rocket attack from a rogue group in Gaza.

 

Side note - I've touched on this, but the rockets fired from Gaza almost always land in open fields. Even an Israeli leader was quoted as saying they are mostly or are just psychological weapons on Israel. There has been some deaths but you can probably count the deaths from the last 10 years on one hand. Compare that vs how many in Gaza have been killed.

[knapplc]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

Knapp I am going to give you some advice. We went round and round before on this subject. He will change and move the posts forever. He is right and you can't tell him a thing, the best you can do is just let him spout and throw up his little jabs and be done with it. He can't even say bombing a bus of innocent people is wrong without somehow tying it to the Israeli govt. and their policies that are the real cause of the killings. Just a little advice!!

 

Thank you. It's helpful to speak with someone with experience.

[Cactusboy]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

Knapp I am going to give you some advice. We went round and round before on this subject. He will change and move the posts forever. He is right and you can't tell him a thing, the best you can do is just let him spout and throw up his little jabs and be done with it. He can't even say bombing a bus of innocent people is wrong without somehow tying it to the Israeli govt. and their policies that are the real cause of the killings. Just a little advice!!

 

 

Still haven't learned to wait for my response, huh? Don't worry, we'll wait for you to take the foot out of your mouth.

[johnnyrodgers20]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

Knapp I am going to give you some advice. We went round and round before on this subject. He will change and move the posts forever. He is right and you can't tell him a thing, the best you can do is just let him spout and throw up his little jabs and be done with it. He can't even say bombing a bus of innocent people is wrong without somehow tying it to the Israeli govt. and their policies that are the real cause of the killings. Just a little advice!!

 

Thank you. It's helpful to speak with someone with experience.

 

 

No problem, I fell into that trap and no matter what the facts are or the amount of evidence it is Israel's fault!!

[johnnyrodgers20]

Remember this whole exchange is about if and how often Hamas breaks ceasefires. They are the party/group in charge of Gaza.

 

Now who's moving the goal posts? Nobody said this was ONLY about Hamas. It's about Israel and their occupation of territories, and the response of Palestinians. Hamas is only one group, and we're talking about them for the moment. All of Palestine is responding to Israel, though, and we're going to be dealing with the entirety of the situation, not just specific groups. Have to. Can't take it piecemeal, because it's not a situation of having truces with one group for all groups.

 

Knapp I am going to give you some advice. We went round and round before on this subject. He will change and move the posts forever. He is right and you can't tell him a thing, the best you can do is just let him spout and throw up his little jabs and be done with it. He can't even say bombing a bus of innocent people is wrong without somehow tying it to the Israeli govt. and their policies that are the real cause of the killings. Just a little advice!!

 

 

Still haven't learned to wait for my response, huh? Don't worry, we'll wait for you to take the foot out of your mouth.

 

WHAT?????

[Sub-Husker]

I'm referring to the myriad truces and ceasefires that have been tried, and all have failed.

 

And none of those truces (post 1967) have involed an Israeli pullback to the 1967 borders, or the possibility of a self-determined Palestinian state.

 

I suppose, conversely, I could ask you what evidence you have that would support the contention that a true peace would be possible, Sub. That may be an easier target for us to hit.

 

The only thing I could point to is human nature, most people want to live in peace... given that they have self determination and a chance to prosper in relative safety.

 

I would love for your point to be true. I don't think anyone here in this message board has any desire for war over there. Peace in the Middle East would be the goal of everyone involved in this conversation, I believe. I just don't think it's possible.

 

The Israelis hold the power, as long as there is occupation and repression, their subjects will not agree to peace under those conditions.

[knapplc]

It's disingenuous to start your history at 1967 without mentioning the reasons those borders changed that year.