Phillips 66 All-Big 12 Men's Basketball Awards

[fro daddy]

Funny thing that nearly every KU fan I know agrees with me. KU wins in spite of collins. And if winning is all that matters, brady morningstar will have a better record then Collins, so we better save a spot for him on the teams also. and please correct me if I am wrong, but KU is pretty damn stacked and that record and this team would be pretty darn good without Collins. They were good when he rode the bench and sparingly played (yet you give him credit for those career wins)They will be good when he is gone.

 

as far as stats. I will answer your question. What is more impressive, a player that is that only real threat on his team who is constantly double teamed and plays with a bunch of lower end talent having the numbers he does on offense and defense? That is much more impressive to me than a player who puts his team in bad positions and plays with only the best of the best, including the number 1 classes in the country. KU would still be great without Collins and CU would be even worse without Higgins. Imagine what Higgins could do if he was on KU or if Collins played for CU. That is the true measure of an all conference team. Who are the best PLAYERS, not who are the best TEAMS, or who plays for the best teams.

 

And with your logic then Clemente who plays for a top 10 team, is the leader of that team and still puts up better numbers than collins is getting shafted right? Or does that not matter because being the leader and top scorer for the #9 team is not as good as that for the #1 team?

 

And to act like just because a team has been anounced you cant discuss it or disagree is silly coming from the fans who will moan for a week when they feel a sker is shafted on the big 12 football team.....

 

Guess just because my opinion differs from you I must be a 'hater' or have no idea what I am talking about....

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I know that I am not alone in mine, and you are not alone in yours. I stated my reasons for my thoughts, you guys have stated yours. For me, players talent and performance on the coart carries the most weight. For you guys playing for the best team and unmeasurable opinions (i.e. Leadership) carries the most weight. Something tells me we just wont agree on this one. but thats okay.

 

and by the way sker, my dislike for KU has nothing to do with my feelings. I for one think its pretty silly that Cole was not a unanimous selection. (ps - most of dislike for KU is for their fans. I really dont hate their players.)

[fro daddy]

Player A -.429 from the field, .356 from 3, 2.6 boards p/g, 6.4 asts p/g, 20 steals, 0 blocks and 15.1 pts per game

Player B- .522 from the field, .310 from 3, 4.3 boards p/g, 2.1 asts p/g, 34 steals, 6 blocks and 19.4 per game

Player C- .383 from the field, .364 from 3, 1.9 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 16 steals, 2 blocks and 14.9 per game

Player D- .400 from the field, .355 from 3, 2.3 boards p/g, 3.7 asts p/g, 17 steals, 1 block and 17.7 per game

Player E -.346 from the field, .329 from 3, 3.7 boards p/g, 1.1 asts p/g, 16 steals, 3 blocks and 12.4 per game

Player F- .468 from the field, .475 from 3, 5.8 boards p/g, 1.3 asts p/g, 23 steals, 7 blocks and 20.7 per game

 

One of these players is Collins, the rest are the 2nd and 3rd team guards.

 

If you need a hint, collins is the one with the next to worst numbers

 

By the way, where did you get these stats? Because Sherron's season stats are:

 

Sherron Collins- .423 from the field, .376 from 3, 2.0 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 37 steals, 2 blocks and 15.3 pts p/g

 

Linky if you don't believe me....

 

Those are conference stats from the Big 12 web site.

[redout22]

Player A -.429 from the field, .356 from 3, 2.6 boards p/g, 6.4 asts p/g, 20 steals, 0 blocks and 15.1 pts per game

Player B- .522 from the field, .310 from 3, 4.3 boards p/g, 2.1 asts p/g, 34 steals, 6 blocks and 19.4 per game

Player C- .383 from the field, .364 from 3, 1.9 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 16 steals, 2 blocks and 14.9 per game

Player D- .400 from the field, .355 from 3, 2.3 boards p/g, 3.7 asts p/g, 17 steals, 1 block and 17.7 per game

Player E -.346 from the field, .329 from 3, 3.7 boards p/g, 1.1 asts p/g, 16 steals, 3 blocks and 12.4 per game

Player F- .468 from the field, .475 from 3, 5.8 boards p/g, 1.3 asts p/g, 23 steals, 7 blocks and 20.7 per game

 

One of these players is Collins, the rest are the 2nd and 3rd team guards.

 

If you need a hint, collins is the one with the next to worst numbers

 

By the way, where did you get these stats? Because Sherron's season stats are:

 

Sherron Collins- .423 from the field, .376 from 3, 2.0 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 37 steals, 2 blocks and 15.3 pts p/g

 

Linky if you don't believe me....

 

Those are conference stats from the Big 12 web site.

Season isn't just made up of conferance play. If it was Texas wouldn't even be considered being in the big dance and Mizzou's dominant home court play wouldn't be that much of an advantage at all.

[fro daddy]

Player A -.429 from the field, .356 from 3, 2.6 boards p/g, 6.4 asts p/g, 20 steals, 0 blocks and 15.1 pts per game

Player B- .522 from the field, .310 from 3, 4.3 boards p/g, 2.1 asts p/g, 34 steals, 6 blocks and 19.4 per game

Player C- .383 from the field, .364 from 3, 1.9 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 16 steals, 2 blocks and 14.9 per game

Player D- .400 from the field, .355 from 3, 2.3 boards p/g, 3.7 asts p/g, 17 steals, 1 block and 17.7 per game

Player E -.346 from the field, .329 from 3, 3.7 boards p/g, 1.1 asts p/g, 16 steals, 3 blocks and 12.4 per game

Player F- .468 from the field, .475 from 3, 5.8 boards p/g, 1.3 asts p/g, 23 steals, 7 blocks and 20.7 per game

 

One of these players is Collins, the rest are the 2nd and 3rd team guards.

 

If you need a hint, collins is the one with the next to worst numbers

 

By the way, where did you get these stats? Because Sherron's season stats are:

 

Sherron Collins- .423 from the field, .376 from 3, 2.0 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 37 steals, 2 blocks and 15.3 pts p/g

 

Linky if you don't believe me....

 

Those are conference stats from the Big 12 web site.

Season isn't just made up of conferance play. If it was Texas wouldn't even be considered being in the big dance and Mizzou's dominant home court play wouldn't be that much of an advantage at all.

 

Trust me, everyones numbers go up and collins stays at the bottom. You can look it up if you want. And typically, conference play determins conference awards redout. you should and probably do know this. And by the way, that would mean that Mu has lost 2 conference home games in the past 2 seasons. I know alot of teams that would take 14-2 at home considering thats better than every other big 12 team other than KU. I like you red, so I wont ROFL like you guys do me, but i will give you a

[RockyMountainOySker]

Funny thing that nearly every KU fan I know agrees with me. KU wins in spite of collins. And if winning is all that matters, brady morningstar will have a better record then Collins, so we better save a spot for him on the teams also. and please correct me if I am wrong, but KU is pretty damn stacked and that record and this team would be pretty darn good without Collins. They were good when he rode the bench and sparingly played (yet you give him credit for those career wins)They will be good when he is gone.

 

this is fun..... I guess I will take Bill Self's words over your KU friends opinion then. Self coached Deron Williams but calls Sherron Collins the best guard he's ever coached, by far. Self says Collins effects the game more than any player he has been around. Take for example a play vs. KSU last week. Sherron crossed over Pullen and drove to the hoop, didn't shoot and passed to Brady who kicked it to a wide open X. Henry. X was wide open b/c his defender dropped to help on Sherron (tried to find video, but the only way I could find was espn 360 - so no link). He might not get the stats that casual bball fans need to determine how good someone is.....but the people who vote see it and that's why he's a 1st team all conference player.

 

Brady will not match Sherron in wins...he redshirted.

 

as far as stats. I will answer your question. What is more impressive, a player that is that only real threat on his team who is constantly double teamed and plays with a bunch of lower end talent having the numbers he does on offense and defense? That is much more impressive to me than a player who puts his team in bad positions and plays with only the best of the best, including the number 1 classes in the country. KU would still be great without Collins and CU would be even worse without Higgins. Imagine what Higgins could do if he was on KU or if Collins played for CU. That is the true measure of an all conference team. Who are the best PLAYERS, not who are the best TEAMS, or who plays for the best teams.

 

You will probably ream me for bringing up last year in this debate but I'm still gonna. Last year Sherron was the enitre teamat at KU. He knew that and played that way averaging 18.3 pts p/g. There is more talent on this years team and a good player knows how to play with the players around him. He is still the leading scorer on a team that is stacked. Your telling me the leading scorer on a stacked team isn't the best player on that team?????? That is logic.

 

If you put Collins on CU, Collins would average 20+ a game, easily.

 

And with your logic then Clemente who plays for a top 10 team, is the leader of that team and still puts up better numbers than collins is getting shafted right? Or does that not matter because being the leader and top scorer for the #9 team is not as good as that for the #1 team?

 

This is the exact same point as the your point above. KSU has two guards and that's it. Without those two guards, KSU might not even be in the top 25. This is exactly what happened at KU last year. Sherron was the entire team last year and averaged much higher numbers. This year is different and being the best player on the best team, allows him to play to everyone of his teammates strengths. KU is at their best when they spread it around.

 

And to act like just because a team has been anounced you cant discuss it or disagree is silly coming from the fans who will moan for a week when they feel a sker is shafted on the big 12 football team.....

.

 

I don't feel this way at all. You said we should be laughing at me, but when my opinion happens to agree with the outcome of what we are discussing, that just doesn't make any sense at all. Discussion and debate is fine but you can't say I should be laughed at when the voters voted the way they voted.

 

I screwed up the copy/paste but your last point was about Cole. I actually disagree regarding Cole. Cole had an average year at best and the fact that he wasn't unanimous, doesn't surprise me. This was the year for Cole to grow by leaps and bounds but he is the same player he was last year.

 

This has been a fun discussion.

[redout22]

Player A -.429 from the field, .356 from 3, 2.6 boards p/g, 6.4 asts p/g, 20 steals, 0 blocks and 15.1 pts per game

Player B- .522 from the field, .310 from 3, 4.3 boards p/g, 2.1 asts p/g, 34 steals, 6 blocks and 19.4 per game

Player C- .383 from the field, .364 from 3, 1.9 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 16 steals, 2 blocks and 14.9 per game

Player D- .400 from the field, .355 from 3, 2.3 boards p/g, 3.7 asts p/g, 17 steals, 1 block and 17.7 per game

Player E -.346 from the field, .329 from 3, 3.7 boards p/g, 1.1 asts p/g, 16 steals, 3 blocks and 12.4 per game

Player F- .468 from the field, .475 from 3, 5.8 boards p/g, 1.3 asts p/g, 23 steals, 7 blocks and 20.7 per game

 

One of these players is Collins, the rest are the 2nd and 3rd team guards.

 

If you need a hint, collins is the one with the next to worst numbers

 

By the way, where did you get these stats? Because Sherron's season stats are:

 

Sherron Collins- .423 from the field, .376 from 3, 2.0 boards p/g, 4.3 asts p/g, 37 steals, 2 blocks and 15.3 pts p/g

 

Linky if you don't believe me....

 

Those are conference stats from the Big 12 web site.

Season isn't just made up of conferance play. If it was Texas wouldn't even be considered being in the big dance and Mizzou's dominant home court play wouldn't be that much of an advantage at all.

 

Trust me, everyones numbers go up and collins stays at the bottom. You can look it up if you want. And typically, conference play determins conference awards redout. you should and probably do know this. And by the way, that would mean that Mu has lost 2 conference home games in the past 2 seasons. I know alot of teams that would take 14-2 at home considering thats better than every other big 12 team other than KU. I like you red, so I wont ROFL like you guys do me, but i will give you a

I need to do my research before I post. I thought the OU and Baylor losses were at Mizzou, I guess I have a bad memory. I deserve a

 

I still think 14-2 is no good though

[bball_backer]

there's not a lot i wouldn't do if it would give NU a 14-2 home record in conference play...

[mmmtodd]

there's not a lot i wouldn't do if it would give NU a 14-2 home record in conference play...

 

 

 

i feel a woodshed thread in the making here...

[fro daddy]

I actually disagree regarding Cole. Cole had an average year at best and the fact that he wasn't unanimous, doesn't surprise me. This was the year for Cole to grow by leaps and bounds but he is the same player he was last year.

 

I think we just have differnt thoughts and opinions in general on this one. I would argue that without cole on the team KU is a shell of what it is now. I believe there is no player they have more important that him. He changes the game so much for them on defense that its almost not fair. You can no longer attack the rim. Him being there keeps their guards out of foul trouble simply because opposing teams cant/wont drive and finish. Everyone pulls up or fades away. The number of shots he blocks and changes makes a huge difference in what KU does. On offense he is still pretty average, but much of his scoring is dictated by giving him the ball. There have been more than just a few games this year where he gets ignored. But regardless of his scoring, no player on that team effects them winning as much as he does. a big man like that are so far and few between. To me he is all the difference between a #1 ranking and a number #21 ranking.

 

and you are right, this has been fun. Not too many basketball fans here in Nebraska. Normally if I bring it up to talk about with friends and coworkers their eyes gloss over like I am talking about some foriegn language

[RockyMountainOySker]

I actually disagree regarding Cole. Cole had an average year at best and the fact that he wasn't unanimous, doesn't surprise me. This was the year for Cole to grow by leaps and bounds but he is the same player he was last year.

 

I think we just have differnt thoughts and opinions in general on this one. I would argue that without cole on the team KU is a shell of what it is now. I believe there is no player they have more important that him. He changes the game so much for them on defense that its almost not fair. You can no longer attack the rim. Him being there keeps their guards out of foul trouble simply because opposing teams cant/wont drive and finish. Everyone pulls up or fades away. The number of shots he blocks and changes makes a huge difference in what KU does. On offense he is still pretty average, but much of his scoring is dictated by giving him the ball. There have been more than just a few games this year where he gets ignored. But regardless of his scoring, no player on that team effects them winning as much as he does. a big man like that are so far and few between. To me he is all the difference between a #1 ranking and a number #21 ranking.

 

and you are right, this has been fun. Not too many basketball fans here in Nebraska. Normally if I bring it up to talk about with friends and coworkers their eyes gloss over like I am talking about some foriegn language

 

I definitely agree that without Cole, KU would be a much different team. Sometimes I want to Cole to stay in the defensive zone even when KU has the ball. His defense puts him on the first team, and if I had a vote, I would have voted that way. I guess I'm not surprised it wasn't unanimous b/c of what he does with the ball in his hands......maybe I'm just frustrated watching him not get better. Regardless, he is deserving of being first team.

[redout22]

I actually disagree regarding Cole. Cole had an average year at best and the fact that he wasn't unanimous, doesn't surprise me. This was the year for Cole to grow by leaps and bounds but he is the same player he was last year.

 

I think we just have differnt thoughts and opinions in general on this one. I would argue that without cole on the team KU is a shell of what it is now. I believe there is no player they have more important that him. He changes the game so much for them on defense that its almost not fair. You can no longer attack the rim. Him being there keeps their guards out of foul trouble simply because opposing teams cant/wont drive and finish. Everyone pulls up or fades away. The number of shots he blocks and changes makes a huge difference in what KU does. On offense he is still pretty average, but much of his scoring is dictated by giving him the ball. There have been more than just a few games this year where he gets ignored. But regardless of his scoring, no player on that team effects them winning as much as he does. a big man like that are so far and few between. To me he is all the difference between a #1 ranking and a number #21 ranking.

 

and you are right, this has been fun. Not too many basketball fans here in Nebraska. Normally if I bring it up to talk about with friends and coworkers their eyes gloss over like I am talking about some foriegn language

 

I agree with just about everything you said but I still think Udoh is the better player than Aldrich on the defensive end. He is a force and had more rebounds and blockz per game. IMO he is a lot more athletic and doesn't depend on his long arms to make every single play. I still think Aldrich is better on offense even though he averaged less a game but that was mainly because he was doubled everytime he touched the ball.

[RockyMountainOySker]

Funny thing that nearly every KU fan I know agrees with me. KU wins in spite of collins. And if winning is all that matters, brady morningstar will have a better record then Collins, so we better save a spot for him on the teams also. and please correct me if I am wrong, but KU is pretty damn stacked and that record and this team would be pretty darn good without Collins. They were good when he rode the bench and sparingly played (yet you give him credit for those career wins)They will be good when he is gone.

 

this is fun..... I guess I will take Bill Self's words over your KU friends opinion then. Self coached Deron Williams but calls Sherron Collins the best guard he's ever coached, by far. Self says Collins effects the game more than any player he has been around. Take for example a play vs. KSU last week. Sherron crossed over Pullen and drove to the hoop, didn't shoot and passed to Brady who kicked it to a wide open X. Henry. X was wide open b/c his defender dropped to help on Sherron (tried to find video, but the only way I could find was espn 360 - so no link). He might not get the stats that casual bball fans need to determine how good someone is.....but the people who vote see it and that's why he's a 1st team all conference player.

 

found the link to the play I mentioned above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlDdL8AtqAQ

 

Watch the play that begins at the 15 second mark.