Need some Christian prayers for tonight

[WCHusker]

At first, I thought he was just trying to lay a heavy dose of morals on her (while also trying to get his rocks off). The further it went, the more it sounded like he was trying to recruit her into a cult.

 

It's probably best if I'm outta this thread NOW!!!!!

 

[Landlord]

I don't want to offend anybody in this post, so please read this lightly. I figure everybody got to voice an opinion so I suppose I will voice mine.

 

I know what you are doing had nothing but good intentions, and it is always admirable to be there for someone when they are in need. But I don't agree with these methods. Religion and faith are two things that people need to decide on themselves. As I said I know your intentions were good, but if you really wanted to help this girl find a path through life, being there are her friend and offering guidance and support as a fellow human being and friend would be more valuable.

 

It sounds to me like you should form a connection as a friend with her first, especially before offering any advice or direction regarding religion.

 

Again, no disrespect.

 

 

None taken, and I understand where you are coming from entirely. It's easy to draw that conclusion, seeing how I haven't really explained the situation in detail, but to the best of my knowledge (being a partial player in this whole thing) that isn't the way of things. Since we've met (around October I believe), my intentions being what they were, I've been trying to operate under the parameters that you're suggesting. Trying to be there, to encourage, to lead if needed, and being as good a friend as I know how. I'm still filling that role even after all of this, and will still continue to fill that role. Even the letter I wrote was composed much more of encouragement and expressing that I care about her than it was about God and accepting Jesus as savior. I definitely am open to suggestions and constructive criticism, and will freely admit that I probably haven't gone about this situation in the best or most effective way possible, so thank you for voicing your concern. I'll definitely take it to heart.

 

 

 

At first, I thought he was just trying to lay a heavy dose of morals on her (while also trying to get his rocks off). The further it went, the more it sounded like he was trying to recruit her into a cult.

 

It's probably best if I'm outta this thread NOW!!!!!

 

 

 

Yep, probably best.

[zoogs]

I don't want to offend anybody in this post, so please read this lightly. I figure everybody got to voice an opinion so I suppose I will voice mine.

 

I know what you are doing had nothing but good intentions, and it is always admirable to be there for someone when they are in need. But I don't agree with these methods. Religion and faith are two things that people need to decide on themselves. As I said I know your intentions were good, but if you really wanted to help this girl find a path through life, being there are her friend and offering guidance and support as a fellow human being and friend would be more valuable.

 

It sounds to me like you should form a connection as a friend with her first, especially before offering any advice or direction regarding religion.

 

Again, no disrespect.

 

 

None taken, and I understand where you are coming from entirely. It's easy to draw that conclusion, seeing how I haven't really explained the situation in detail, but to the best of my knowledge (being a partial player in this whole thing) that isn't the way of things. Since we've met (around October I believe), my intentions being what they were, I've been trying to operate under the parameters that you're suggesting. Trying to be there, to encourage, to lead if needed, and being as good a friend as I know how. I'm still filling that role even after all of this, and will still continue to fill that role. Even the letter I wrote was composed much more of encouragement and expressing that I care about her than it was about God and accepting Jesus as savior. I definitely am open to suggestions and constructive criticism, and will freely admit that I probably haven't gone about this situation in the best or most effective way possible, so thank you for voicing your concern. I'll definitely take it to heart.

 

As an atheist, I would probably not take it kindly at all if somebody were to come to me and declare that I was leading a worldly and materialist life with no idea of my true potential. And a potential relationship with someone who is religious, for me, becoming a member of that religion is basically out of the question. This is where I'm coming from, and maybe it's similar to where others who would have a negative reaction to this thread are coming from. If I were in a situation like you described, I might even take offense - as I'd consider 'accepting Jesus' and 'straightening my life out' as two very distinct and even incompatible paths for me. I don't mean any disrespect either; am simply offering it from my POV, if I were in the girl's shoes.

 

But, you're a good guy, Landlord, and I'm sure that isn't what your situation boils down to. Religion or not, someone you've gotten to know in your life could very well be struggling and needing help. The kind of help they need, and the kind of help you choose to give - it certainly isn't up to any of us (who know little about the situation) to judge. So while I will refrain from congratulating you on doing God's work, I do sincerely wish you the best of luck.

[bennychico11]

But I don't agree with these methods. Religion and faith are two things that people need to decide on themselves. As I said I know your intentions were good, but if you really wanted to help this girl find a path through life, being there are her friend and offering guidance and support as a fellow human being and friend would be more valuable.

 

It sounds to me like you should form a connection as a friend with her first, especially before offering any advice or direction regarding religion.

 

Again, no disrespect.

 

Christians believe in the duty of spreading the teachings of Jesus Christ and the stories of the Bible. Just as Christ is said to have done. Many religious faiths do this to reach people who may not have yet had the opportunity to learn about them. Faith can be very comforting to anyone who is experiencing a difficult time in their life. I'm sure Landlord has experienced sorrow/sadness in his life that and his faith has helped him through it. So he feels he can help her by explaining how faith might help her too. If it does end up helping her and she's a happier, better person for it...great!

 

As an atheist, I would probably not take it kindly at all if somebody were to come to me and declare that I was leading a worldly and materialist life with no idea of my true potential

 

I'm personally not religious/faith believer myself but I can recognize the good that does come out of faith for some people.

I've had my own fair share of discussions with friends of mine who are religious. Never to the extent where they say I'm going down the wrong path and I'm materialistic. But definitely have had them say that the worry for me and will "be praying" for me since I don't believe in their god. At the time I was kind of thrown back by that and was offended. Almost as if they thought they were better than me and that I needed to be fixed by prayer. But now I came to see it as just their way of saying "I care about you."

[Husker_x]

But I don't agree with these methods. Religion and faith are two things that people need to decide on themselves. As I said I know your intentions were good, but if you really wanted to help this girl find a path through life, being there are her friend and offering guidance and support as a fellow human being and friend would be more valuable.

 

It sounds to me like you should form a connection as a friend with her first, especially before offering any advice or direction regarding religion.

 

Again, no disrespect.

 

Christians believe in the duty of spreading the teachings of Jesus Christ and the stories of the Bible. Just as Christ is said to have done. Many religious faiths do this to reach people who may not have yet had the opportunity to learn about them. Faith can be very comforting to anyone who is experiencing a difficult time in their life. I'm sure Landlord has experienced sorrow/sadness in his life that and his faith has helped him through it. So he feels he can help her by explaining how faith might help her too. If it does end up helping her and she's a happier, better person for it...great!

 

As an atheist, I would probably not take it kindly at all if somebody were to come to me and declare that I was leading a worldly and materialist life with no idea of my true potential

 

I'm personally not religious/faith believer myself but I can recognize the good that does come out of faith for some people.

I've had my own fair share of discussions with friends of mine who are religious. Never to the extent where they say I'm going down the wrong path and I'm materialistic. But definitely have had them say that the worry for me and will "be praying" for me since I don't believe in their god. At the time I was kind of thrown back by that and was offended. Almost as if they thought they were better than me and that I needed to be fixed by prayer. But now I came to see it as just their way of saying "I care about you."

 

Is that really all they're saying? In general if someone offers to pray for you, say, because you're sick, that's probably all it is––a caring gesture. But if it's because you're an unbeliever, I think it is supremely arrogant. They are saying that they have something you don't, a special relationship you don't have, a reward you won't claim, and a knowledge you can't understand. At best it's a wholly conceited and backhanded gesture. I've experienced it myself and every time I'm struck by the shallow falsity of it.

[bennychico11]

Is that really all they're saying? In general if someone offers to pray for you, say, because you're sick, that's probably all it is––a caring gesture. But if it's because you're an unbeliever, I think it is supremely arrogant. They are saying that they have something you don't, a special relationship you don't have, a reward you won't claim, and a knowledge you can't understand. At best it's a wholly conceited and backhanded gesture. I've experienced it myself and every time I'm struck by the shallow falsity of it.

 

Yes, but Christians believe in an afterlife and that what they do here will be judged. Pretty much to the point that the whole reason we're put here on earth is to get to heaven. And if one is not to accept Jesus Christ as their savior while here on Earth, they won't be allowed into heaven when they die. So in a round about way my friends are just saying they care about what happens to me...that this life is only temporary and the one after is what's important. Provided they go to their heaven when they die, they don't want to miss me not being there.

 

Still, in the end, I don't care because I don't believe in it. So their "arrogance" is irrelevant. I don't believe in their special relationship. I don't think their praying is going to do one bit of difference for me. So since I don't choose to recognize it, I instead choose to see it as their form of "caring."

A quote from an atheist interview I saw awhile back:

"Everytime my religious friend would say, 'I'll pray for you,' I responded with, 'And I'll THINK for you.'"

 

 

anyway, sorry to stray off topic this far

[Landlord]

But I don't agree with these methods. Religion and faith are two things that people need to decide on themselves. As I said I know your intentions were good, but if you really wanted to help this girl find a path through life, being there are her friend and offering guidance and support as a fellow human being and friend would be more valuable.

 

It sounds to me like you should form a connection as a friend with her first, especially before offering any advice or direction regarding religion.

 

Again, no disrespect.

 

Christians believe in the duty of spreading the teachings of Jesus Christ and the stories of the Bible. Just as Christ is said to have done. Many religious faiths do this to reach people who may not have yet had the opportunity to learn about them. Faith can be very comforting to anyone who is experiencing a difficult time in their life. I'm sure Landlord has experienced sorrow/sadness in his life that and his faith has helped him through it. So he feels he can help her by explaining how faith might help her too. If it does end up helping her and she's a happier, better person for it...great!

 

As an atheist, I would probably not take it kindly at all if somebody were to come to me and declare that I was leading a worldly and materialist life with no idea of my true potential

 

I'm personally not religious/faith believer myself but I can recognize the good that does come out of faith for some people.

I've had my own fair share of discussions with friends of mine who are religious. Never to the extent where they say I'm going down the wrong path and I'm materialistic. But definitely have had them say that the worry for me and will "be praying" for me since I don't believe in their god. At the time I was kind of thrown back by that and was offended. Almost as if they thought they were better than me and that I needed to be fixed by prayer. But now I came to see it as just their way of saying "I care about you."

 

Is that really all they're saying? In general if someone offers to pray for you, say, because you're sick, that's probably all it is––a caring gesture. But if it's because you're an unbeliever, I think it is supremely arrogant. They are saying that they have something you don't, a special relationship you don't have, a reward you won't claim, and a knowledge you can't understand. At best it's a wholly conceited and backhanded gesture. I've experienced it myself and every time I'm struck by the shallow falsity of it.

 

I'm not saying there aren't people like this, but I don't think it's the common trend amongst people who live their lives for Jesus. I do believe I have something that you don't have. I believe that I don't deserve it at all, and neither do you, but it's there for the taking regardless. The thing is, I would do anything to help you decide for yourself that it's something you desire. There is no arrogance involved here. I received a gift that I needed more than anything yet didn't deserve, and I want you to have the same gift, because I believe that you need it just as badly as I do. Call it ignorance, false or whatever else, but I personally don't believe it to be arrogant. I, and millions other like me, are trying to save lives, not because of some misguided hero complex (although I am guilty of this, entirely), but because we are commanded to by our master.

 

Like I said, there are people who go about evangelizing and trying to save for entirely wrong reasons, but for me personally, it's out of a love for God and a love for the people I know that that I live life the way I do. Unfortunately, I'm bound to make repeated mistakes along the way.

 

 

 

 

Edit: That whole thing doesn't sound very coherent upon second glance. Hopefully I got across what I needed to, my brain is a bit fatigued at the moment.

[Husker_x]

I'm not saying there aren't people like this, but I don't think it's the common trend amongst people who live their lives for Jesus. I do believe I have something that you don't have. I believe that I don't deserve it at all, and neither do you, but it's there for the taking regardless. The thing is, I would do anything to help you decide for yourself that it's something you desire. There is no arrogance involved here. I received a gift that I needed more than anything yet didn't deserve, and I want you to have the same gift, because I believe that you need it just as badly as I do. Call it ignorance, false or whatever else, but I personally don't believe it to be arrogant. I, and millions other like me, are trying to save lives, not because of some misguided hero complex (although I am guilty of this, entirely), but because we are commanded to by our master.

 

Like I said, there are people who go about evangelizing and trying to save for entirely wrong reasons, but for me personally, it's out of a love for God and a love for the people I know that that I live life the way I do. Unfortunately, I'm bound to make repeated mistakes along the way.

 

Edit: That whole thing doesn't sound very coherent upon second glance. Hopefully I got across what I needed to, my brain is a bit fatigued at the moment.

 

Round about the height of Muslim supremacy there was a poet, Omar Khayyam, who found himself at odds with the literalists of his day. He probably wasn't an atheist, but he did pen a quatrain that explains my attitude towards the religious mindset.

 

And do you think that unto such as you;

A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:

God gave the secret, and denied it me?--

Well, well, what matters it? Believe that, too.

 

It isn't the way you go about your evangelism business that I'm critical of, but the institution it's based on. In my experience the people who offer the solemn "I'll pray for you" gesture because of my atheism have no idea what they're talking about. They don't know anything about their holy book, about their God, the history of their religion, much less the general landscape of Religion itself, but they somehow still manage to have this self-assuredness, this near-delusional certainty about things they aren't certain about. If claiming to be sure of things you couldn't possibly know about God, or what he wants, or life's great after party isn't arrogance of a kind, then we might as well quit using the word. As an atheist I have taken and continue to take great pains to learn about various gods and philosophies. Unlike religion, my conclusions are necessarily tentative and subject to change. I don't think religion causes arrogance, I think it is arrogance, because it demands faithful devotion when it's not warranted in the slightest.

 

This doesn't mean I think you strut around town with a holier-than-thou hero complex. You're not half as dreadful as your storybook tells you you are. In reality you're no more or less f'd up than the rest of us. You don't need a brutal human sacrifice to make you moral, or to scapegoat your responsibilities to your fellow men. You don't need to live in servility. But at some point someone told you otherwise. I hope you can see through it.

[bennychico11]

 

You're not half as dreadful as your storybook tells you you are. In reality you're no more or less f'd up than the rest of us. You don't need a brutal human sacrifice to make you moral, or to scapegoat your responsibilities to your fellow men. You don't need to live in servility. But at some point someone told you otherwise. I hope you can see through it.

 

ironically, I find this whole thing contradicting your earlier statement:

 

I think it is supremely arrogant. They are saying that they have something you don't, a special relationship you don't have, a reward you won't claim, and a knowledge you can't understand.

 

Hoping someone to "see through it" and hopefully finding that their path is erred...to me is much like a theist saying "I'll pray for you" for not allowing Christ into your life.

 

I think atheists are more like theists than they sometimes think

[Husker_x]

 

You're not half as dreadful as your storybook tells you you are. In reality you're no more or less f'd up than the rest of us. You don't need a brutal human sacrifice to make you moral, or to scapegoat your responsibilities to your fellow men. You don't need to live in servility. But at some point someone told you otherwise. I hope you can see through it.

 

ironically, I find this whole thing contradicting your earlier statement:

 

I think it is supremely arrogant. They are saying that they have something you don't, a special relationship you don't have, a reward you won't claim, and a knowledge you can't understand.

 

Hoping someone to "see through it" and hopefully finding that their path is erred...to me is much like a theist saying "I'll pray for you" for not allowing Christ into your life.

 

I think atheists are more like theists than they sometimes think

 

In what respect?

[bennychico11]

 

In what respect?

 

They both insist on trying to prove the existence (or non-existence) of a deity to those who don't believe.

Much like theism is defined as a belief in god....atheism is the belief that there is no god. But they are still both beliefs.

[Husker_x]

 

In what respect?

 

They both insist on trying to prove the existence (or non-existence) of a deity to those who don't believe.

Much like theism is defined as a belief in god....atheism is the belief that there is no god. But they are still both beliefs.

 

My aim couldn't be to prove that God doesn't exist because I have never made that claim and never would. Depending on which definition we're talking about I might let myself go (like, say, Zeus), but in this discussion it was never my intention and so far as I can tell I never made that case.

 

Atheism is not the belief that there is no god or gods. It can be a subset of it depending on the person––a strong atheist––but atheism itself is only defined as the lack of belief in a god or gods. Atheism is not even in itself opposed to religion; many religions are atheistic. My current and tentative stance on the issue of belief is that no argument or evidence has been presented to me that would make me believe in a god or gods. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it isn't. My position is not a claim but a response to a claim. I have no idea if there's a supreme force behind the universe. Some people say they do. I'd like them to back it up, and that's about the extent of it.

[zoogs]

 

In what respect?

 

They both insist on trying to prove the existence (or non-existence) of a deity to those who don't believe.

Much like theism is defined as a belief in god....atheism is the belief that there is no god. But they are still both beliefs.

 

My aim couldn't be to prove that God doesn't exist because I have never made that claim and never would. Depending on which definition we're talking about I might let myself go (like, say, Zeus), but in this discussion it was never my intention and so far as I can tell I never made that case.

 

Atheism is not the belief that there is no god or gods. It can be a subset of it depending on the person––a strong atheist––but atheism itself is only defined as the lack of belief in a god or gods. Atheism is not even in itself opposed to religion; many religions are atheistic. My current and tentative stance on the issue of belief is that no argument or evidence has been presented to me that would make me believe in a god or gods. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it isn't. My position is not a claim but a response to a claim. I have no idea if there's a supreme force behind the universe. Some people say they do. I'd like them to back it up, and that's about the extent of it.

 

At the risk of continuing to derail Landlord's thread...

 

It's not theistic to believe in your way of looking at the world and hoping that others do, too. Heck, I know I do. But it is a tad arrogant, and I also know that's one of my least favorite things about religious people - so it'd be hypocritical of me to tell them that I hope they see differently. In the end though, I sort of do hope that. People aren't so very different from each other after all. As long as everyone can see that, maybe there would be less problems in the world. Then again, maybe that's arrogant too.

 

I don't feel all that great about turning Landlord's personal thread into a religion vs. non religion thread though ... hopefully, we can simmer this down and let Landlord bring this back on topic? And discuss those things elsewhere.

[Landlord]

I'm not saying there aren't people like this, but I don't think it's the common trend amongst people who live their lives for Jesus. I do believe I have something that you don't have. I believe that I don't deserve it at all, and neither do you, but it's there for the taking regardless. The thing is, I would do anything to help you decide for yourself that it's something you desire. There is no arrogance involved here. I received a gift that I needed more than anything yet didn't deserve, and I want you to have the same gift, because I believe that you need it just as badly as I do. Call it ignorance, false or whatever else, but I personally don't believe it to be arrogant. I, and millions other like me, are trying to save lives, not because of some misguided hero complex (although I am guilty of this, entirely), but because we are commanded to by our master.

 

Like I said, there are people who go about evangelizing and trying to save for entirely wrong reasons, but for me personally, it's out of a love for God and a love for the people I know that that I live life the way I do. Unfortunately, I'm bound to make repeated mistakes along the way.

 

Edit: That whole thing doesn't sound very coherent upon second glance. Hopefully I got across what I needed to, my brain is a bit fatigued at the moment.

 

Round about the height of Muslim supremacy there was a poet, Omar Khayyam, who found himself at odds with the literalists of his day. He probably wasn't an atheist, but he did pen a quatrain that explains my attitude towards the religious mindset.

 

And do you think that unto such as you;

A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:

God gave the secret, and denied it me?--

Well, well, what matters it? Believe that, too.

 

It isn't the way you go about your evangelism business that I'm critical of, but the institution it's based on. In my experience the people who offer the solemn "I'll pray for you" gesture because of my atheism have no idea what they're talking about. They don't know anything about their holy book, about their God, the history of their religion, much less the general landscape of Religion itself, but they somehow still manage to have this self-assuredness, this near-delusional certainty about things they aren't certain about. If claiming to be sure of things you couldn't possibly know about God, or what he wants, or life's great after party isn't arrogance of a kind, then we might as well quit using the word. As an atheist I have taken and continue to take great pains to learn about various gods and philosophies. Unlike religion, my conclusions are necessarily tentative and subject to change. I don't think religion causes arrogance, I think it is arrogance, because it demands faithful devotion when it's not warranted in the slightest.

 

This doesn't mean I think you strut around town with a holier-than-thou hero complex. You're not half as dreadful as your storybook tells you you are. In reality you're no more or less f'd up than the rest of us. You don't need a brutal human sacrifice to make you moral, or to scapegoat your responsibilities to your fellow men. You don't need to live in servility. But at some point someone told you otherwise. I hope you can see through it.

 

 

Point taken. Most people are indeed like that. Personally, I acknowledge that I could be wrong, there could be no God, or if there is He could be entirely different than I believe him to be. I have faith because of how I have personally interpreted things to be God working in my life, and because my own personal research and questioning has led me down the path that I have chose, but I am fully aware that there is no way I can be sure of such a thing, and there is always a chance for error. I suppose that puts me in the minority.

 

I don't feel all that great about turning Landlord's personal thread into a religion vs. non religion thread though ... hopefully, we can simmer this down and let Landlord bring this back on topic? And discuss those things elsewhere.

 

 

The thread served it's initial purpose, and there isn't much more to be discussed on that front, unless people have questions or more they would like to say. I have no problem with the way the thread has turned, it's common fare for Huskerboard

[zoogs]

Sure, it's your call!