Secret "Kill List" Tests Obama's Principles

[The Dude]

Stumbled upon this article recently. Long article, but worth the read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

 

 

Excerpt I found troubling:

 

In response to his concern, the C.I.A. downsized its munitions for more pinpoint strikes. In addition, the president tightened standards, aides say: If the agency did not have a “near certainty” that a strike would result in zero civilian deaths, Mr. Obama wanted to decide personally whether to go ahead.

 

The president’s directive reinforced the need for caution, counterterrorism officials said, but did not significantly change the program. In part, that is because “the protection of innocent life was always a critical consideration,” said Michael V. Hayden, the last C.I.A. director under President George W. Bush.

 

It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.

 

Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.

This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants.

 

But in interviews, three former senior intelligence officials expressed disbelief that the number could be so low. The C.I.A. accounting has so troubled some administration officials outside the agency that they have brought their concerns to the White House. One called it “guilt by association” that has led to “deceptive” estimates of civilian casualties.

 

“It bothers me when they say there were seven guys, so they must all be militants,” the official said. “They count the corpses and they’re not really sure who they are.”

[JJ Husker]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

[Yossarian]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

[bennychico11]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

 

so innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11 are worthless? Their lives don't matter?

[Yossarian]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

 

so innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11 are worthless? Their lives don't matter?

 

If they are killed, that means they were not innocent. Why? Because President Obama has no innocent bystanders on his kill list. That's the catch...Catch-22. That's why he labors over the kill list list every waking moment - except on the golf course...he's then thinking about jobs for the 23,000,000 Americans who are standing on corners begging because they have no money nor jobs...and now no "Big Gulps" or high salt foods.

[carlfense]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

 

so innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11 are worthless? Their lives don't matter?

 

If they are killed, that means they were not innocent. Why? Because President Obama has no innocent bystanders on his kill list. That's the catch...Catch-22. That's why he labors over the kill list list every waking moment - except on the golf course...he's then thinking about jobs for the 23,000,000 Americans who are standing on corners begging because they have no money nor jobs...and now no "Big Gulps" or high salt foods.

Do you support the drone strikes? Your feelings about Obama are obvious . . . but it looks like you're trying very hard to be critical of him even when you support his policies.

 

I, for one, am simply aghast that he plays a round of golf every two weeks.

[Yossarian]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

 

so innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11 are worthless? Their lives don't matter?

 

If they are killed, that means they were not innocent. Why? Because President Obama has no innocent bystanders on his kill list. That's the catch...Catch-22. That's why he labors over the kill list list every waking moment - except on the golf course...he's then thinking about jobs for the 23,000,000 Americans who are standing on corners begging because they have no money nor jobs...and now no "Big Gulps" or high salt foods.

Do you support the drone strikes? Your feelings about Obama are obvious . . . but it looks like you're trying very hard to be critical of him even when you support his policies.

 

I, for one, am simply aghast that he plays a round of golf every two weeks.

 

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

I'll have to read the whole link later but, the only thing I found troubling in the excerpt is that they apparently spend way too much time trying to classify enemy KIA's. I don't care how they count military age males. I think they should count everyone as enemy combatants. If what we're doing isn't worth possibly killing some "innocent" bystanders, then maybe we shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

2,753 innocent bystanders died on 9/11/01. They agree with you...as do I..

 

so innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the attacks on 9/11 are worthless? Their lives don't matter?

 

If they are killed, that means they were not innocent. Why? Because President Obama has no innocent bystanders on his kill list. That's the catch...Catch-22. That's why he labors over the kill list list every waking moment - except on the golf course...he's then thinking about jobs for the 23,000,000 Americans who are standing on corners begging because they have no money nor jobs...and now no "Big Gulps" or high salt foods.

Do you support the drone strikes? Your feelings about Obama are obvious . . . but it looks like you're trying very hard to be critical of him even when you support his policies.

 

I, for one, am simply aghast that he plays a round of golf every two weeks.

 

This is much like the Clinton way. The Dems, for the most part, are against the use of troops, and being labeled as Imperialists, so he uses tech. Clinton used cruise missiles, and now Obama uses drones. For the most part I am OK with this approach, I do have concerns about him signing off on the assassination of Americans, also the possible loss of intel.

 

This quote from the NYT should send chills down your spine; "Several were Americans. Two were teenagers, including a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years".

[carlfense]

This is much like the Clinton way. The Dems, for the most part, are against the use of troops, and being labeled as Imperialists, so he uses tech. Clinton used cruise missiles, and now Obama uses drones. For the most part I am OK with this approach, I do have concerns about him signing off on the assassination of Americans, also the possible loss of intel.

 

This quote from the NYT should send chills down your spine; "Several were Americans. Two were teenagers, including a girl who looked even younger than her 17 years".

I'm more likely to support using technology if it keeps our troops out of harms way (either Clinton's cruise missiles or Bush/Obama's drones). I don't think I'm so much against the use of troops so much as I'd rather not risk their lives unless necessary.

 

Yes. That does send chills down my spine.

[carlfense]

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

If we're comparing the net gains/losses in the public sector to the private sector he has a point. Then again, I'm sure that you probably know that.

 

I would have thought that if you didn't care about the golf that you wouldn't have raised the issue.

[Yossarian]

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

If we're comparing the net gains/losses in the public sector to the private sector he has a point. Then again, I'm sure that you probably know that.

 

I would have thought that if you didn't care about the golf that you wouldn't have raised the issue.

 

Well, you would have been wrong. I didn't "raise the issue" so much as take an oblique shot at the lefties who claim that the President is always on the job worrying about American jobs even when he is on the golf course. Do like I do - address specific posts and not try to overanalyze the reasons for the post. Meanwhile, I support anything the Preezy does as long as it reveals his inability to cope with what he thought was a breezy job. He still believes that he can solve any problem simply by hold ing a press conference. Plus...I think he's lazy.

[carlfense]

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

If we're comparing the net gains/losses in the public sector to the private sector he has a point. Then again, I'm sure that you probably know that.

 

I would have thought that if you didn't care about the golf that you wouldn't have raised the issue.

 

Well, you would have been wrong. I didn't "raise the issue" so much as take an oblique shot at the lefties who claim that the President is always on the job worrying about American jobs even when he is on the golf course. Do like I do - address specific posts and not try to overanalyze the reasons for the post. Meanwhile, I support anything the Preezy does as long as it reveals his inability to cope with what he thought was a breezy job. He still believes that he can solve any problem simply by hold ing a press conference. Plus...I think he's lazy.

I don't think I'll do like you do, Yos. Apologies.

 

Regarding the bold: any evidence to back those up? It's not one of those "some people say" sort of beliefs is it?

[Yossarian]

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

If we're comparing the net gains/losses in the public sector to the private sector he has a point. Then again, I'm sure that you probably know that.

 

I would have thought that if you didn't care about the golf that you wouldn't have raised the issue.

 

Well, you would have been wrong. I didn't "raise the issue" so much as take an oblique shot at the lefties who claim that the President is always on the job worrying about American jobs even when he is on the golf course. Do like I do - address specific posts and not try to overanalyze the reasons for the post. Meanwhile, I support anything the Preezy does as long as it reveals his inability to cope with what he thought was a breezy job. He still believes that he can solve any problem simply by hold ing a press conference. Plus...I think he's lazy.

I don't think I'll do like you do, Yos. Apologies.

 

Regarding the bold: any evidence to back those up? It's not one of those "some people say" sort of beliefs is it?

 

Dang, you did it again.

 

As for the bold, it's something that I say. I got that feeling the other day when, in an attempt to cover his butt, he said something to the effect of: The economy is not doing fine and that's why I am holding this press conference.

 

Finally, my handle is Yossarian, not Yos.

[carlfense]

Do I suuport the drone strikes? Why heck yes. I'm glad that the killing has continued. I think that it's always better tpo kill the enemy before he kills you. What I find amusing is the left-wng hysteria over GITMO, rendition, detainment, and military tribunals before 2008. Now the WH leaks info suggesting he is a killing machine, and people are concerned about the leaks but not about his kill list. I am in that camp, but I won't vote for him. I'd vote for PeeWee Herman before i'd vote for Barack Obama.

 

As for the golf, I don't really care - but I do wish he held more press conferences. The media is no longer giving him a pass on every gaffe. The funny part about his statement that the prvate sector was doing just fine is that he and his crew of Keystone Kops believes it. They want to pour money into Government "shovel ready jobs" and not the private sector. He is too hidebound by leftist ideology to solve the current crisis.

If we're comparing the net gains/losses in the public sector to the private sector he has a point. Then again, I'm sure that you probably know that.

 

I would have thought that if you didn't care about the golf that you wouldn't have raised the issue.

 

Well, you would have been wrong. I didn't "raise the issue" so much as take an oblique shot at the lefties who claim that the President is always on the job worrying about American jobs even when he is on the golf course. Do like I do - address specific posts and not try to overanalyze the reasons for the post. Meanwhile, I support anything the Preezy does as long as it reveals his inability to cope with what he thought was a breezy job. He still believes that he can solve any problem simply by hold ing a press conference. Plus...I think he's lazy.

I don't think I'll do like you do, Yos. Apologies.

 

Regarding the bold: any evidence to back those up? It's not one of those "some people say" sort of beliefs is it?

 

Dang, you did it again.

 

As for the bold, it's something that I say. I got that feeling the other day when, in an attempt to cover his butt, he said something to the effect of: The economy is not doing fine and that's why I am holding this press conference.

 

Finally, my handle is Yossarian, not Yos.

If possible . . . in the future I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd indicate in some way which words in any given post are open for discussion. That way we won't have to go through all of this trouble. Thanks, Yos.