LA City Council Votes to Boycott Arizona

[holvy83]

No police are going to go around stopping people without just cause. Even if they do show your ID, and go about your business.

 

Unfortunately that's not the case, which is why I have a job. The vast, vast majority of police officers - heck, of people in general - are decent, good and law-abiding. The problem is that tiny minority who abuses laws or privileges. That's why laws are made.

 

All which is true, but really wish they would drop the "illegal aliens" term then if laws are put in place to protect them.

[knapplc]

Ok Knappic, how is it constitutional for LA to pass a sanctuary city law. They will not enforce federal law in regards to illegal immigrants, are they willfully skirting Title VII, by giving law breakers a shield from law enforcement?

I may be a little dense from these meds I'm on (damned allergies/cold/flu/lung infection/Bird Flu/SARS or whatever this is) but I'm not following what you're asking here. Who is willfully skirting Title VII?

 

Also I understand what you are saying in regards to our system applying to all people, but do you not forfeit a certain amount of rights if you break the law (I.E. the police can hold me against my will if they catch me committing some sort of crime), since these people are breaking the law just by being here, should they expect to be punished for it?

When you break a law you forfeit some specific rights, like your right to freedom, but you don't forfeit all rights, such as your civil rights, your right to an attorney, your Miranda rights, etc.

 

The other problem people are having is when they apply Arizona's law only to illegal immigrants. Nobody likes illegal immigrants in this discussion, far as I know, but just because we don't like the fact that people illegally cross our border, that doesn't give us the right to create laws that take away the rights of citizens and non-citizens alike. As everyone knows, Arizona has a HUGE Hispanic population. The problem with this law is that, if you look Hispanic, you can be pulled over and required to show papers, whether you're American or non-American. That is a tremendous violation of civil rights.

 

I'll reiterate that I don't envy Arizona's position. I know they're getting screwed here, and I know something has to be done. This law wasn't that something, though.

[rawhide-jr]

I'd hate to rain on anyone's California-gasm, but it's actually in California's Penal Code for peace officers to enforce citienship laws (i.e. send the illegal immigrants in the direction of INS). I do love the fact that Cities like Los Angeles always jump up and act out against so called "segregationist laws" when their own city, the "City of Angels" and the self-appointed capital of liberalism, is the most segregated city in the nation (i.e. Watts, East LA, Thousand Oaks, Compton, etc....). LA Mayor Villaraigosa doesn't live amognst his own oppressed hispanic people, he lives in a nice predominantly wealthy area...

 

We (Cal cops) are actually instructed by our Federal, State, and Local governments to detain and deport any illegal immigrants we contact, but due to our amount of calls for service we rarely get to exercise these duties.

[knapplc]

Is L.A. institutionally segregated, or did those groups segregate themselves? There's a human trait to gravitate towards people that are similar to us, which is why Whites tend to live among Whites, Blacks among Blacks, Hispanics among Hispanics, etc. There's nothing wrong with this (aside from the fact that it can be kind of boring), as long as it's done by choice rather than some institution, whether that institution be governmental or private, like if a real estate company steers certain people toward certain areas.

[holvy83]

Like say in Mexico if you are "caught" without documentation they can throw you in jail? Maybe this is a myth or maybe not, just makes me think that if other countries are strict with their immigration, why isn't the US? I guess I don't know if this only if you commit a crime in other countries or what, but I would think even Mexico has some sort of tolerance for being in their country illegally.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

LA is a sanctuary city Link, what is the legal standing of passing a law, or through practice, of choosing to not enforce federal laws. Seems to me this would be in the same vein as the AZ law.

 

One point of note, this law in AZ is a secondary offense, they cannot be pulled over just because they look Hispanic (I know, there are bad cops but the law itself does not mandate this), as for showing your papers, I thought you were required by federal law to carry proof of residency until such point you become a naturalized citizen.

 

I think more than anything this law should shine the light on the plight of AZ. To bad it has been tossed into the pile of racist white people trying to keep Hispanics down.

 

Although I must say I find it funny, that some of the best debate I have read or had, happens on a football fan site.

[knapplc]

Unless I'm reading that wrong, LA's law states that the objective of the police contact cannot be to determine citizenship, and once contacted, a person's immigration status cannot be determined through questioning. That is almost exactly the opposite of Arizona's law, which allows police to inquire about immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. LA isn't skirting TVII, they're simply saying that the police are not charged with enforcing it, and won't. Nothing wrong with that - it's not their purview.

 

The AZ law puts an unfair burden on the police of having to make a judgment call on who to question and who not to question. They're going to get a ton of charges filed against them through civil rights agencies, almost guaranteed.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Unless I'm reading that wrong, LA's law states that the objective of the police contact cannot be to determine citizenship, and once contacted, a person's immigration status cannot be determined through questioning. That is almost exactly the opposite of Arizona's law, which allows police to inquire about immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. LA isn't skirting TVII, they're simply saying that the police are not charged with enforcing it, and won't. Nothing wrong with that - it's not their purview.

 

The AZ law puts an unfair burden on the police of having to make a judgment call on who to question and who not to question. They're going to get a ton of charges filed against them through civil rights agencies, almost guaranteed.

 

 

I know this law will get hammered. No matter how much they try to take race out of it people will be yelling "racism". I am pretty sure it will be struck down at some point. The whole thing is a complete mess. We have millions of people here illegally and we cant seem to do anything about it, or I should say the political will is not there. Anyway thanks for indulging me Knappic, I learned a few things.

[knapplc]

Sure, no problem. This is what I do every day.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Unless I'm reading that wrong, LA's law states that the objective of the police contact cannot be to determine citizenship, and once contacted, a person's immigration status cannot be determined through questioning. That is almost exactly the opposite of Arizona's law, which allows police to inquire about immigration status of anyone they suspect of being illegal. LA isn't skirting TVII, they're simply saying that the police are not charged with enforcing it, and won't. Nothing wrong with that - it's not their purview.

 

The AZ law puts an unfair burden on the police of having to make a judgment call on who to question and who not to question. They're going to get a ton of charges filed against them through civil rights agencies, almost guaranteed.

EDIT: One last thought.

 

I guess I look at it as letting someone go that you know is here illegally. That is giving them a pass on federal laws, so is the officer breaking the law by letting a known law breaker go? I know cops can practice discretion in some cases, IE speeding, but at some point someone some where has to do SOMETHING. Imagine if a cop had one of the 9-11 terrorists pulled over on the 10th, and knew he was here on an expired visa, and did nothing.

[knapplc]

That's partly to blame on the nebulous nature of the American legal landscape. At my job I have jurisdiction over several laws, and I can do various things to various entities under the auspices of those laws. However, even though I have a badge, I don't get to pull people over for speeding, or cite them for littering. I have no jurisdiction over those laws, so I don't get to do anything along the lines of enforcing them.

 

Without knowing much about the laws in SoCal (SOCAL or rawhide, help me out?) I would guess that LA cops don't have jurisdiction over laws pertaining to immigration. So if they found an illegal, they can't prosecute him for being here illegaly - at least, that's what I gather from the law you linked to.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Aw.. That actually makes a lot of sense, kind of like a food inspector writing tickets for speeding, has a badge, just not his area... I still applaud AZ for what they have done (let legality sort it self out) as I think it is more a cry for help than anything...

[sarge87]

Like say in Mexico if you are "caught" without documentation they can throw you in jail? Maybe this is a myth or maybe not, just makes me think that if other countries are strict with their immigration, why isn't the US? I guess I don't know if this only if you commit a crime in other countries or what, but I would think even Mexico has some sort of tolerance for being in their country illegally.

Actually holvy if you are "caught" without documentation in good ole Mexico you can be imprisoned in a cockroach infested hole for 2-10 years. That's of course after the Federales' rob you of any cash or valuables you have on your person. And if you think you're going to get help by the US State Dept. Think again. Because if you aren't connected politically in the States, you will rot in jail.

 

My neighbor's, who live next door are from Guatemala. He says Mexico's southern border is militarized to the teeth and if they catch anyone crossing usually results in someone getting shot. However, the women are spared this. They are usually raped repeatedly -- then shot.

[sarge87]

Here's the deal. Arizona's immigration law mirrors the federal statute to a T. When they crafted this law, they made sure they crossed all the T's and dotted the I's.

 

The Justice Dept. would have already had a hold put on the law with one of the the federal courts already if they had standing, but up until now they haven't found a way to challenge it.

 

If LA wants a pi$$ing match over this law then Arizona should cut the power and water off to LA. I wonder who would flinch in that game of chicken?

[huskered17]

Here's the deal. Arizona's immigration law mirrors the federal statute to a T. When they crafted this law, they made sure they crossed all the T's and dotted the I's.

 

The Justice Dept. would have already had a hold put on the law with one of the the federal courts already if they had standing, but up until now they haven't found a way to challenge it.

 

If LA wants a pi$$ing match over this law then Arizona should cut the power and water off to LA. I wonder who would flinch in that game of chicken?

[/quote

 

I thought about that also, [power and water] Calif has enough problems of their own, they don't need any more.

You know people from other country's, not just Mexico have been caught coming over the border illegally. This is turning into a ticking time bomb. This law Arizona passed, has helped open some eyes across the country, not just in Washington, DC.

 

GBR!!!