Richard Dawkins' speech to protest Pope

[Husker_x]

Last week Joseph Ratzinger took a tour of England. For a man who is supposedly infallible, it didn't take long before he made remarks which we might respectfully refer to as 'controversial'.

 

In his address, the Pope spoke of "a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society".

 

He went on to urge the UK to guard against "aggressive forms of secularism".

 

Needless to say, England, an irreligious country in its own right, and home to both Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, two of the most notable atheists in our time, did not take long to launch protest rallies. At one such rally Dawkins unleashed this viral broadside which hit dozens of websites near you.

 

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Meh... Knocking Christians/Catholics is like shooting fish in a barrel. The sins of the Catholic Church are well known, although I dont understand him going on to say how they keep women etc down with their dogma, if they were to change, then what? Anyway, I like people who challenge faith, I believe it helps one become resolute, for or against, although I would like to see him make the same statements about repression of women, violence, etc when an outspoken anti-western Imam comes to town....

[Husker_x]

Fast forward to about the one minute mark.

And again, to the 6 1/2 minute mark.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Good for him. As I said before I like to challenge both sides on any belief. I still dont understnad his rant about women etc. If the Pope were to reverse the things he objects to, and clears the air about the priest scandal (how I do not know) would he then become religious, or is this just a way to take more cheap shots at the church.

[Ratt Mhule]

So let me get this straight, this guy went from criticizing the Pope to criticizing every catholic on the planet for our beliefs. Guess what buddy, you don't have to listen to the Pope. The Pope speaks for catholics and catholics only. And even if you don't like what the Pope said, don't judge billions of people bc you don't agree with what they teach. Keep your arguments directed towards the Pope, not me and other catholics. Thats when I have a problem with atheists, when they call me out for my beliefs and associate me with people like Hitler. Give me a freakin break! And then the people cheer. And guess what buddy, there are bad catholics, there are bad muslims, there are bad hindus, there are bad buddhists, there are bad protestants, there are bad born again christains, there are bad atheists, there are bad people who believe they are Jesus Christ himself! Hitler being catholic has nothing to do with anything, he was a bad human being!

 

And just for the record, I was an alter boy in grade school and never touched. And I respect the priests here in Omaha. There are bad apples everywhere. I love how everyone brings up the sex abuse as if every priest in the catholic church is a rapist. Just like every African American is a criminal, right? But if this man's self-esteem is so low that he has to gather a group of people to criticize what ONE man said, then be my guest. I guess I should hold a rally at least 20 times a day for what rude people say to me.

[huskerjack23]

So let me get this straight, this guy went from criticizing the Pope to criticizing every catholic on the planet for our beliefs. Guess what buddy, you don't have to listen to the Pope. The Pope speaks for catholics and catholics only. And even if you don't like what the Pope said, don't judge billions of people bc you don't agree with what they teach. Keep your arguments directed towards the Pope, not me and other catholics. Thats when I have a problem with atheists, when they call me out for my beliefs and associate me with people like Hitler. Give me a freakin break! And then the people cheer. And guess what buddy, there are bad catholics, there are bad muslims, there are bad hindus, there are bad buddhists, there are bad protestants, there are bad born again christains, there are bad atheists, there are bad people who believe they are Jesus Christ himself! Hitler being catholic has nothing to do with anything, he was a bad human being!

 

And just for the record, I was an alter boy in grade school and never touched. And I respect the priests here in Omaha. There are bad apples everywhere. I love how everyone brings up the sex abuse as if every priest in the catholic church is a rapist. Just like every African American is a criminal, right? But if this man's self-esteem is so low that he has to gather a group of people to criticize what ONE man said, then be my guest. I guess I should hold a rally at least 20 times a day for what rude people say to me.

The problem is this man holds the infallible word of your Lord and Savior. This man is supposed to be moral? A man who doesn't own up to the terrible things that human beings do, but to cover it up to protect the sanctity of the church? This man is not moral.

 

Also, the fact that you don't want to be lumped in with the Pope and his morals helps solidify my opinion that secular morality is superior. Yours is based on religion, but you make up your own mind on what you believe and don't believe, dogma be damned.

[Ratt Mhule]

So let me get this straight, this guy went from criticizing the Pope to criticizing every catholic on the planet for our beliefs. Guess what buddy, you don't have to listen to the Pope. The Pope speaks for catholics and catholics only. And even if you don't like what the Pope said, don't judge billions of people bc you don't agree with what they teach. Keep your arguments directed towards the Pope, not me and other catholics. Thats when I have a problem with atheists, when they call me out for my beliefs and associate me with people like Hitler. Give me a freakin break! And then the people cheer. And guess what buddy, there are bad catholics, there are bad muslims, there are bad hindus, there are bad buddhists, there are bad protestants, there are bad born again christains, there are bad atheists, there are bad people who believe they are Jesus Christ himself! Hitler being catholic has nothing to do with anything, he was a bad human being!

 

And just for the record, I was an alter boy in grade school and never touched. And I respect the priests here in Omaha. There are bad apples everywhere. I love how everyone brings up the sex abuse as if every priest in the catholic church is a rapist. Just like every African American is a criminal, right? But if this man's self-esteem is so low that he has to gather a group of people to criticize what ONE man said, then be my guest. I guess I should hold a rally at least 20 times a day for what rude people say to me.

The problem is this man holds the infallible word of your Lord and Savior. This man is supposed to be moral? A man who doesn't own up to the terrible things that human beings do, but to cover it up to protect the sanctity of the church? This man is not moral.

 

Also, the fact that you don't want to be lumped in with the Pope and his morals helps solidify my opinion that secular morality is superior. Yours is based on religion, but you make up your own mind on what you believe and don't believe, dogma be damned.

 

It seems like everytime I turn around, Pope Benedict is saying something controversial. Condoms and now marriage. I was really young and don't remember much but from what I remember John Paul was a great Pope and the Catholic church is trying to make him a saint which I think is awesome. I don't really know what he said here. My post is directed at this man bc he threw me into a category with people like hitler. He kept saying, they/them, as in me and other catholics, when he should have been saying he as in the Pope.

 

And it really annoys me with the rapist jokes about the catholic church. There are really good priests out there and especially at the church's I attend in Omaha. And I was never touched as an alter boy. Do I think its right for the Pope to cover it up, heck no I don't. I think these people should be punished according to human law just like any other pervert.

 

But, afterall, he is still the head of my church and I need to respect him. Not necessarily agree all the time, but respect him. just like everyone needs to respect Obama even if you don't like things that he does. He is still the President.

[knapplc]

secular morality is superior

 

Morality is as individual as a fingerprint. Secularists have no greater claim to morality than Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Muslims, etc. There are good and bad Theists and good and bad Atheists. You can't paint either group with a broad brush.

[Husker_x]

 

It seems like everytime I turn around, Pope Benedict is saying something controversial. Condoms and now marriage. I was really young and don't remember much but from what I remember John Paul was a great Pope and the Catholic church is trying to make him a saint which I think is awesome. I don't really know what he said here. My post is directed at this man bc he threw me into a category with people like hitler. He kept saying, they/them, as in me and other catholics, when he should have been saying he as in the Pope.

 

I think what Dawkins (and others) are trying to say is the opposite of what you heard. I've read a lot of Dawkin's work and seen quite a few of his debates and lectures. He doesn't believe Christians or Roman Catholics are Nazis. Where he gets a vein bulging on his forehead is when atheism is blamed for the Holocaust, because it's absurd even if Hitler was an atheist. Not everyone says that. No one should. Catholicism is not to blame, either. What he's saying is, if you want to play that game, guess what? Hitler was a Catholic. He also has a beef with a man who exercises his false sense of authority to worsen the situation of some people.

 

But, afterall, he is still the head of my church and I need to respect him. Not necessarily agree all the time, but respect him. just like everyone needs to respect Obama even if you don't like things that he does. He is still the President.

 

Except the problem is I do not grant that Ratzinger holds any legitimate office or should have any authority over anyone in any capacity at any time, especially if backed by force or the threat of force, as was the case for popes from centuries past.

[husker_99]

 

Fast forward to about the one minute mark.

 

And again, to the 6 1/2 minute mark.

 

The only problem with Richard Dawkins apostasy question is that the Koran never says an ex-muslim shall receive death penalty for stop being a Muslim. He fails to recognize that it's a country decision rather than a whole.

[Ratt Mhule]

I think what Dawkins (and others) are trying to say is the opposite of what you heard. I've read a lot of Dawkin's work and seen quite a few of his debates and lectures. He doesn't believe Christians or Roman Catholics are Nazis. Where he gets a vein bulging on his forehead is when atheism is blamed for the Holocaust, because it's absurd even if Hitler was an atheist. Not everyone says that. No one should. Catholicism is not to blame, either. What he's saying is, if you want to play that game, guess what? Hitler was a Catholic. He also has a beef with a man who exercises his false sense of authority to worsen the situation of some people.

 

I think Benedict is just letting his personal bias show through when he was speaking about Hitler. Him being from Germany and being in the Hitler youth (I had no idea he was even in the Hitler youth til today) he probably has a lot of personal opinions about the man as do many other Germans I'd assume. He is not speaking for everyone, just himself. I don't care what Hitler believed or not, the man was evil. I think that is what most people in the world think about him. Religious views are out the window when dealing with evil people.

 

Except the problem is I do not grant that Ratzinger holds any legitimate office or should have any authority over anyone in any capacity at any time, especially if backed by force or the threat of force, as was the case for popes from centuries past.

 

Well to Catholics he holds a very important position and we respect him as the man God has chose to lead his church here on Earth. Doesn't mean we agree with everything he says and does, but he is the face of our church and chosen by God. Nobody but Catholics have to listen to anything he says and certainly should not get bent out of shape about it. To Dawkins, he is just one normal man. No reason to care so much.

[Husker_x]

 

Except the problem is I do not grant that Ratzinger holds any legitimate office or should have any authority over anyone in any capacity at any time, especially if backed by force or the threat of force, as was the case for popes from centuries past.

 

Well to Catholics he holds a very important position and we respect him as the man God has chose to lead his church here on Earth. Doesn't mean we agree with everything he says and does, but he is the face of our church and chosen by God. Nobody but Catholics have to listen to anything he says and certainly should not get bent out of shape about it. To Dawkins, he is just one normal man. No reason to care so much.

 

Well that's the problem, isn't it? Normal men do not think that under certain preconditions they are infallible. The pope does. Normal men do not herd a flock of sheep a billion strong. The pope does. Normal men cannot convince AIDS-ravaged Africa to abandon condom use under the guise of morality. The pope can.

 

The pope is just some guy. Except a lot of people don't choose to see him that way, and he doesn't correct them.

[Ratt Mhule]

Well that's the problem, isn't it? Normal men do not think that under certain preconditions they are infallible. The pope does. Normal men do not herd a flock of sheep a billion strong. The pope does. Normal men cannot convince AIDS-ravaged Africa to abandon condom use under the guise of morality. The pope can.

 

The pope is just some guy. Except a lot of people don't choose to see him that way, and he doesn't correct them.

 

That is kind of like saying Obama is just another guy. If Obama was on tv, people know exactly who he is. When someone says Obama, people know exactly who they are talking about. If I was on tv, nobody would know who the heck I was. I'm just a normal guy. Obama, the Pope, other world leaders, those are not just some guys, they are known people and what they say has an effect on people in some way.

 

Me listening to the Pope is like me listening to Obama. It effects me what he says. You listening to the Pope is like me listening to Kim Jung Il, it doesn't effect me bc I don't live in NK. You are not Catholic, so what the Pope says does not effect you or anybody else except a Catholic. And I don't care if he is the Pope and thinks he is infallible, he is human and nobody is perfect, not even Pope Benedict.

[huskerjack23]

secular morality is superior

 

Morality is as individual as a fingerprint. Secularists have no greater claim to morality than Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Muslims, etc. There are good and bad Theists and good and bad Atheists. You can't paint either group with a broad brush.

This is the thing that I'm trying to express. Morality IS individual. But one that includes dogma of a religion can only deviate from that religion to good and bad extremes. It hinders free thought and expression because the individual usually leads back to its doctrine for final decisions.

 

A person can be charitable and kind but still think that homosexuals are an abomination. They can be pro-gay people but think that slavery in the bible is justified because it was done in the name of the lord.

 

Secular morality is superior because we are all accountable to each other. God is not accountable at all.

[knapplc]

secular morality is superior

 

Morality is as individual as a fingerprint. Secularists have no greater claim to morality than Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Muslims, etc. There are good and bad Theists and good and bad Atheists. You can't paint either group with a broad brush.

This is the thing that I'm trying to express. Morality IS individual. But one that includes dogma of a religion can only deviate from that religion to good and bad extremes. It hinders free thought and expression because the individual usually leads back to its doctrine for final decisions.

 

A person can be charitable and kind but still think that homosexuals are an abomination. They can be pro-gay people but think that slavery in the bible is justified because it was done in the name of the lord.

 

Secular morality is superior because we are all accountable to each other. God is not accountable at all.

 

That seems to be saying that secular morality is free from guidance, and it's not. All morality is based on the experiences we have through life. Those experiences are as individual as fingerprints. So you're secular and you're not hung up on god-based morality. Maybe you're hung up on political-based morality. Maybe you're hung up on the morality of your environs. Maybe you base your moral code on Husker football. Whatever it is, it has a basis in something. Nothing human is infallible. There have been no perfect humans, and all man-made constructs are inherently flawed, whether that's a bridge or a belief or a moral code. Secular morality is simply based on other things than Theist morality.

 

But here's the kicker - if you're an Atheist, then you know that Theist morality is based on man-made thoughts and ideals. The very word secular becomes more a discourse in semantics rather than a truly differentiating definition. At the end, we're all falling back on what some man said, whether that man wrote a chapter in the Bible/Quran/Pentateuch or whether that man is you.