74Hunter Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 It's not that there aren't right and wrong answers, it's that there are right and wrong questions. If the SAT vocabulary section tested your knowledge of "street language," than most of the people who usually excel at the SAT would fail miserably, because the test is not taking into consideration their vernacular. "Street language" isn't a "real language" (i.e. taught) such as English or German. If someone does not know "proper American English" then it is normally from a lack of caring or knowledge. And well constructed essay questions are always a better assessment of understanding than a multiple choice test. You can't guess when you're writing an essay, and if you got away with it, than you got lucky or you had a pushover for a teacher. Describing a sequence of events and why those events were important and how they interacted with each other in order to form a larger picture that has deep meaning which still resonates today displays a WAY more thorough understanding of the topic than simply recalling a number from memory. I won't disagree with this statement, but I have on multiple occasions BS'd my way through essay/long answer questions to receive partial credit. And this was throughout high school, college, and grad school, with numerous intructors. 1 Link to comment
carlfense Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 "Street language" isn't a "real language" (i.e. taught) such as English or German. If someone does not know "proper American English" then it is normally from a lack of caring or knowledge. I won't disagree with this statement, but I have on multiple occasions BS'd my way through essay/long answer questions to receive partial credit. And this was throughout high school, college, and grad school, with numerous intructors. I don't entirely disagree with you but I would imagine that English speakers (from England) would make a similar argument about "proper American English" as you call it. Also, there is no doubt that properly formatted and carefully graded essay tests are a better way to measure mastery of a subject than multiple choice tests. Generally, multiple choice tests measure recognition (thought to the be the lowest form of knowledge). Link to comment
carlfense Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 So filling in circles is as academically beneficial as learning the anatomy of animals? It's not so much the ability to fill in the circle, but to choose the appropriate circle. And I'd say anatomy is pretty worthless for the vast majority of attorneys, yet competence (@ dissection/anatomy) displays the ability to learn/process and possibly to some extent a measure of a well rounded education. Virtually nothing in the law is multiple choice/black letter. Though the ability recall and apply case law does seem rather important. Getting hung up on the multiple choice format (done for the sake of efficency) is a bit of a red herring, don't you think? Eh. It's moot regardless. The ACT doesn't teach anyone anything. It's supposed to provide a measure of what you have already learned. In that way it could scarcely be more different than studying anatomy through dissection. The ability to recall case law won't get you far at all. The ability to interpret and apply rather than just memorize is what is truly valuable as an attorney. Standardized tests are a notoriously imprecise method of evaluating this ability. The easiest way to wrap your head around this is to acknowledge that you could guess on every single answer and get a perfect score. That's about as far removed from reality as possible. Link to comment
307husker Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I don't think anybody would argue that MC tests are an ideal format. However, essay exam format for something done on the scale of the ACT is entirely impractical. I'm fairly certain the original topic (other than BH's eligibility) was about the ACT being a valid predictor of college success (this is the only debate I signed up to contest). Essay vs. MC exam procedures is yet another attempt to gain a "win" regardless of the topic... Are we going to go further off course in an attempt to avoid the original debate? Link to comment
74Hunter Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 "Street language" isn't a "real language" (i.e. taught) such as English or German. If someone does not know "proper American English" then it is normally from a lack of caring or knowledge. I won't disagree with this statement, but I have on multiple occasions BS'd my way through essay/long answer questions to receive partial credit. And this was throughout high school, college, and grad school, with numerous intructors. I don't entirely disagree with you but I would imagine that English speakers (from England) would make a similar argument about "proper American English" as you call it. Also, there is no doubt that properly formatted and carefully graded essay tests are a better way to measure mastery of a subject than multiple choice tests. Generally, multiple choice tests measure recognition (thought to the be the lowest form of knowledge). I won't disagree with anything you are saying, but I was taking exception to the opinion that standardized tests are culturally biased. I have heard this argument many times, but I have yet to see any real proof that it is true. Link to comment
carlfense Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I don't think anybody would argue that MC tests are an ideal format. However, essay exam format for something done on the scale of the ACT is entirely impractical. I'm fairly certain the original topic (other than BH's eligibility) was about the ACT being a valid predictor of college success (this is the only debate I signed up to contest). Essay vs. MC exam procedures is yet another attempt to gain a "win" regardless of the topic... Are we going to go further off course in an attempt to avoid the original debate? Unlike you, I didn't sign up to contest a single debate. Also, Braylon Heard not qualifying is the original discussion. All other things discussed have been spin-offs of that original discussion. It's disingenuous to claim your argument is more original than others. That said, I will humor you. This is the most often cited study showing that standardized tests are a less accurate predictor of post-secondary success when compared to secondary grades. Link (.pdf) Link to comment
carlfense Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 "Street language" isn't a "real language" (i.e. taught) such as English or German. If someone does not know "proper American English" then it is normally from a lack of caring or knowledge. I won't disagree with this statement, but I have on multiple occasions BS'd my way through essay/long answer questions to receive partial credit. And this was throughout high school, college, and grad school, with numerous intructors. I don't entirely disagree with you but I would imagine that English speakers (from England) would make a similar argument about "proper American English" as you call it. Also, there is no doubt that properly formatted and carefully graded essay tests are a better way to measure mastery of a subject than multiple choice tests. Generally, multiple choice tests measure recognition (thought to the be the lowest form of knowledge). I won't disagree with anything you are saying, but I was taking exception to the opinion that standardized tests are culturally biased. I have heard this argument many times, but I have yet to see any real proof that it is true. I doubt that such proof as you're looking for actually exists. There are many studies showing a consistent and repeatable black-white test score gap but proving that said gap is due to culturally biased testing is nearly impossible. There are entirely too many possible causes to form a concrete conclusion. Link to comment
husker_hurdler Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 time to move on.......if the kid couldn't pass the clearinghouse with high school classes, how was he going to stay elibigle? Link to comment
Hercules Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 It's not that there aren't right and wrong answers, it's that there are right and wrong questions. If the SAT vocabulary section tested your knowledge of "street language," than most of the people who usually excel at the SAT would fail miserably, because the test is not taking into consideration their vernacular. "Street language" isn't a "real language" (i.e. taught) such as English or German. If someone does not know "proper American English" then it is normally from a lack of caring or knowledge. Of course it's a real language. Hundreds of thousands of people in this country speak it - it's real. You're basically saying that if it isn't taught in grammar classes, it doesn't exist. Hip Hop generally isn't taught in the schools either, does that mean it's not real music? Link to comment
307husker Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Carl Once again, I didn't claim them to be the best predictor, only a valid predictor. U not read good... Link to comment
307husker Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Of course it's a real language. No. It's a lazy spin-off of a real language. There is a difference. Link to comment
knapplc Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Of course it's a real language. No. It's a lazy spin-off of a real language. There is a difference. So is Creole. Link to comment
307husker Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 So, is "pig latin" a real language? Link to comment
jsneb83 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 So, is "pig latin" a real language? It's not a language, it's a dialect. Also, American English is dialect of "Standard English." Link to comment
knapplc Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Even allowing for hyperbole, there is no relationship between Creole and Pig-Latin in this discussion. Link to comment
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