What do you classify yourself as and what do you define that as?

[robsker]

I dislike PMs. I get a million of them via Mod duties. I'd prefer to converse in the forum, if that's OK with you.

Sounds good. It might be a day so so before I can give thoughtful response. I'll be back...

[Ratt Mhule]

Robsker, I cannot disagree more with the statement that Christ's main purpose was to display the glory of God. If that were the case, Christ would not have humbled himself to be born in a manger, live the mean life of a carpenter, then give that up to live the even lower life of a servant rabbi, and ultimately die on the cross along with common thieves. That is most definitely not representative of God's glory. It's representative of Christ's model of subservience. Christ washed the feet of his disciples - what is glorious about that?

 

God's glory is just the overwhelming awesomeness that is part and parcel to God. He has no need to send his only begotten son to Earth to act as a walking billboard of his glory. The "glory of God" was best represented in the majesty of the host of angels who appeared at Christ's birth. Walking around being glorious is a waste of Christianity. It is a light held under a bushel, or salt without its saltiness. It is of no profit to you or to God to simply model Christ's innate glory.

 

Jesus' purpose on Earth was simple, direct, and well-explained by the Old Testament:

 

Prelude:

God creates everything, and Creation is perfect. God creates man to govern it, and allows man free will. Man uses that free will and turns from God. Man, of his own doing, is no longer right with God, and has created an unbridgeable chasm between himself and his Creator. God provides a covenant through which man can once again be made right with God, bridging that gap. Man breaks the covenant. Lather, rinse, repeat several times, through several covenants, all of which man breaks.

 

Enter Jesus:

Because man cannot, by his sinful nature, maintain a covenant relationship with God, and therefore cannot ever be righteous with God, God takes it upon himself to do the bridging. He creates a New Covenant, a final covenant, the most binding covenant of all, which man cannot break. God sends his only-begotten son to act as a perfect sacrifice, a final sacrifice which will erase all sin which stains man. Christ comes to earth, lives a perfect life, provides the perfect model for how God wants humanity to live, and finally, amidst his perfection, he is killed as that final, perfect sacrifice to atone for sin.

 

That was Christ's purpose here - to be the perfection we could not be, and ultimately to be sacrificed as a perfect offering to God as atonement for our sins.

 

Jesus showed that as a Christian, you must do good for your fellow man. Paul explained it quite succinctly: Faith without works is dead. (James 2) Works are to Faith as holes are to swiss cheese. Without those holes, it's just another cheese. Works do not make you right with God - faith does that - but works are so part and parcel to faith that they cannot be separated. They are one and the same, both utterly necessary.

 

Knapp...

 

You are most interesting. And insightful. You are intriguing as you claim for yourself agnosticism. Yet you are a very thoughtful agnostic in that you have considered deeply things Christian. That is cool to see. Rare as well.

 

I wonder, should we continue our discourse on a PM so as not to unnecessarily impose our conversation on others? Husker X just taught me how to use the PM thing --- which was nice of him. So, would you mind PM'ing me and we can continue there? Or do you think it best in this forum?

 

For what it is worth, we have more in agreement than is evident on initial perusal of our points. And I would love to continue talking... just wonder if PM would be better.

 

I am actually really enjoying the conversation you guys are having. Some very insightful stuff. And I think you are both right. Robsker is right, when I go to church on Sunday, it is to praise and thank God for all the gifts he has given me in my life. Not to be a model of how Christ lived his life. But Knapp is also correct, when outside of church, I try and model how Christ lived his life by treatment others with kindness, respect, and being courteous. And I take notice all the time of how people treat me, also. Nothing makes me happier than a happy, courteous person. When I come across a rude person, I don't understand why someone would be so rude to another person, no matter how bad their day is going. And since those kind people can actually turn a bad day for me into a good day, I try and do that for others as I am sure I am not the only person in the world that this happens too. Sometimes it is extremely hard, but I try nonetheless. But like I said, Im enjoying your converstation so Id say keep it here also.

[HuskersNow]

The interesting thing to me has always been - we all consider ourselves to be the open minded ones.

 

Probably a lot less true than we think.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't disregard the claims of others. I do honestly evaluate their claims. The

problem is that people have different criteria that they use to establish "truth." I don't think it is close minded to

demand evidence.

[NUance]

The interesting thing to me has always been - we all consider ourselves to be the open minded ones.

 

Probably a lot less true than we think.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't disregard the claims of others. I do honestly evaluate their claims. The

problem is that people have different criteria that they use to establish "truth." I don't think it is close minded to

demand evidence.

There should be a supplement for Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle that applies to faith and evidence: If you have evidence, you don’t need faith. If you have faith you don’t need evidence.

[Blaze1up]

I believe in my savior and my creator. Sometimes faith can come without religion. I will always trust in a higher power. We can only access what we understand and we only operate from that understanding. I don't look for everything to be explained to me and it's clear that the universe guards her secrets well but it's kind of grandiose to think everything has to be explained to us. Life has a soul and atheists are funny people.

 

[reksuH Fan]

So i would say i am a member of a christian church that my wife grew up in. i was raised catholic but find most of there beliefs and the way the church is run as a bunch of bull. if gods real and loves all why do catholic religions and others frown upon homosexuals? why do they think they are the all mighty and the only correct religion? my uncle said to me once that he is a catholic and anyone who is not will go to hell. i cant help but laugh at that if god loves all why on earth would he send people who believe in him to hell just because of the CULT they chose to follow and lead them on the path to heaven. i think thats another reason god and religion are hard to believe is because you can stand up and make your own religion up and people will follow. im not saying thats a bad thing because i think if hes real and does love us no matter what we believe or follow will take us to heaven and god was prepared for this in that he sent jesus down to die for our sins.

so i am taking my own journey to find god because i want it to be pure and from my heart not someone from church telling me what to do or believe. my wife knows what i am doing but we do not talk about it for the same reasons of if or when i find god i will be clear minded. she knew when we got married i was not a believer and did not like but loved me for me not my religious views. before my search began i would say i did not believe in anything religious that death is death no more no less and while im not sure if god is whatever people want him to be or not i do believe in a higher power now. i have been a alcohol user since i was 16 and over the last three it was very heavy. i would not say i was addicted but i was an alcoholic in the sense i cant stop once i start and was drinking 4-5 days a week and 18-24 cans a day but only after i was off. i did not attend aa nor did anyone force me stop i just simply chose one day that i was not going to drink anymore and have been sober since. like i said i did not wake up and need a drink but if was offered i could not refuse nor did i stop after the first one but i have no urge to say yes to one nor do i want one at all. i have never smoked but people say they taste bad after you stop thats how alcohol looks to me know. i dont know if this is too personal of a story but had i not started my search before this i know that i would not have the will power to stop drinking and now that i have i see my flaws much more clearly now and what else i need to work on. it might be a mind thing in the fact that i am seeking god so i think i have more power then i did before but if thats true im OK with that. i have since stopped chewing tobacco and became a much healthier person in my diet as well. i am not a believer yet that god is real as others would tell me in crazy for not seeing him work in me but i also think it can be my mind feeling more powerful do to the fact i chose to take this journey. i will tell you i pray when i can and try to read the book when i have some time and at the least its a verse a day. i will tell you whatever it is my life has changed for the better. I also pray all the time that the huskers will win a champions ship again soon! they say he doesn't answer selfish prayers but thats one worth trying for.

 

i love the topic its such a great read what you people write about and the never ending evidence to back both sides up. this topic unless closed could go on forever as religion is a huge debatable topic.

[robsker]

Robsker, I cannot disagree more with the statement that Christ's main purpose was to display the glory of God. If that were the case, Christ would not have humbled himself to be born in a manger, live the mean life of a carpenter, then give that up to live the even lower life of a servant rabbi, and ultimately die on the cross along with common thieves. That is most definitely not representative of God's glory. It's representative of Christ's model of subservience. Christ washed the feet of his disciples - what is glorious about that?

 

God's glory is just the overwhelming awesomeness that is part and parcel to God. He has no need to send his only begotten son to Earth to act as a walking billboard of his glory. The "glory of God" was best represented in the majesty of the host of angels who appeared at Christ's birth. Walking around being glorious is a waste of Christianity. It is a light held under a bushel, or salt without its saltiness. It is of no profit to you or to God to simply model Christ's innate glory.

 

Jesus' purpose on Earth was simple, direct, and well-explained by the Old Testament:

 

Prelude:

God creates everything, and Creation is perfect. God creates man to govern it, and allows man free will. Man uses that free will and turns from God. Man, of his own doing, is no longer right with God, and has created an unbridgeable chasm between himself and his Creator. God provides a covenant through which man can once again be made right with God, bridging that gap. Man breaks the covenant. Lather, rinse, repeat several times, through several covenants, all of which man breaks.

 

Enter Jesus:

Because man cannot, by his sinful nature, maintain a covenant relationship with God, and therefore cannot ever be righteous with God, God takes it upon himself to do the bridging. He creates a New Covenant, a final covenant, the most binding covenant of all, which man cannot break. God sends his only-begotten son to act as a perfect sacrifice, a final sacrifice which will erase all sin which stains man. Christ comes to earth, lives a perfect life, provides the perfect model for how God wants humanity to live, and finally, amidst his perfection, he is killed as that final, perfect sacrifice to atone for sin.

 

That was Christ's purpose here - to be the perfection we could not be, and ultimately to be sacrificed as a perfect offering to God as atonement for our sins.

 

Jesus showed that as a Christian, you must do good for your fellow man. Paul explained it quite succinctly: Faith without works is dead. (James 2) Works are to Faith as holes are to swiss cheese. Without those holes, it's just another cheese. Works do not make you right with God - faith does that - but works are so part and parcel to faith that they cannot be separated. They are one and the same, both utterly necessary.

 

Sorry for the slow response.

 

So... Knapp. I am inclined to think that I erred in not fully defining the terms that I used in my earlier posts.. leading you to assess and disagree with perhaps something that you might agree with were I to more fully explain.

 

When I say that the preeminent reason that Jesus came to earth was to display the Glory of God, what I must do is firstly define these terms as applied.

 

Firstly, what do I mean when I say that Jesus came to declare and, moreover, to place on display the Glory of God? What is meant by the term "Glory of God."? First, this will make sense only in a Trinitarian context. So... God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit are 3-in-1, and 1-in-3. One God. In three persons. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are homo-ousious --- that is, of identical essence. That is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit perfectly and infinitely possess identical nature --- perfect love, forgiveness, grace, mercy, wrath, justice. and every other attribute or perfection. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are equally and identically omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient (though, while on earth, Christ set aside some of the manifestation of these attributes for a time) and equally possess aseity (self-existence --- not created --- always has been and always will be). Thus, the Trinity is one God --- in three persons. yet while the Three Persons are homo-ousious --- they are also distinct. So... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God. Not Three. But three individuals. Yet, as three individuals, are yet one. This is what is revealed in the Scriptures and is thereby what is true... but the concepts are beyond us to comprehend --- though we can apprehend these truths in the power of God. It is not unlike the reality that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God at the same time. Beyond us... but what is revealed as truth.

 

In view of the Trinity... the role played within the Trinity re:displaying the Glory of the Godhead is that the the Holy Spirit shows forth the Glory of the Son and the Father (by inspiring the authors of the Bible to write what they wrote, by illuminating the truth of the Word to those who believe, by implanting grace through faith within us, and many other means..). The Son places on display the Glory of the Father --- by coming to earth and living a perfect life, dying a sacrificial death, raising again from the dead and ascending on to the Father. The Father declares the Glory of the Son by giving onto the Son all authority on heaven and on earth --- and by giving the Son a people to redeem.

 

So... what does it mean to posit that the Son shows forth the "Glory of God."? The Son came to Earth to show forth the Glory of God in this... the Glory is the sum perfections of the Godhead --- perfect love, perfect sacrifice, perfect humility, perfect grace, perfect justice, perfect attributes in holiness. Jesus shows forth the infinite love and sacrifice by choosing to condescend to become man --- the incarnation of Christ is the very definition of humility and sacrifice --- for God Himself (God the Son) to so lower Himself to join with His creation and live among them --- and to die for them.... that is staggering testimony of selfless love, grace and humility. For Christ to live under the law and live perfectly --- tempted as are we --- and suffering --- this is mind-blowing testimony of God's glorious grace, love and mercy. To then die on the Cross having had taken upon Himself the sins of those for whom He died --- and there serving, essentially, the hell-sentence for those for whom He died. Infinite love, mercy, forgiveness, and justice is on display (perfect justice is on display in that the penalty for all sin is meted out --- no sin goes unpaid --- the sin of those for whom Christ died were applied to Christ as if Christ had committed the sins --- and on the Cross the perfect wrath of God the Father against those sins was meted out upon Christ). This is staggering love, mercy and grace. In Christ we have on display the sum perfections of the Godhead --- the Glory of God manifest among the Creation.

 

Secondly,by "preeminent" reason I mean the highest order reality, the greatest reason and the motivating and driving reason -- the chief reason among many reasons. Jesus came to earth for an array of reasons, all of which are internally consistent with, and in support of, the preeminent reason for His coming --- and that defining, highest-order reason is to display before men and angels the glory of God. Did He come to die on the Cross? yes. And in so doing display the Glory of God. Did He come to live a perfect life and to impute the righteousness He earned onto the account of the sinners He saved? Yes. And that too was in service of His placing the Glory of God on display. Did He come to earth to save men? Yes. And by so doing, place on display the Glory of God.

 

Third and lastly... as to some of your points... You said..

 

"Christ would not have humbled himself to be born in a manger, live the mean life of a carpenter, then give that up to live the even lower life of a servant rabbi, and ultimately die on the cross along with common thieves. That is most definitely not representative of God's glory. It's representative of Christ's model of subservience. Christ washed the feet of his disciples - what is glorious about that?"

 

That Jesus chose the life of a carpenter, a servant rabbi, and chose to wash His disciples feet is yet again precisely what is the point --- these all are testimony of the Glorious perfections of humility, love, grace and mercy on display. Christ, not taking equality with God as a thing to be grasped... yet humbled Himself --- showing forth the amazing sacrificial love of God --- what profound a display of the Glory of God!

 

You say --- and you are correct on every single point ---

 

"Because man cannot, by his sinful nature, maintain a covenant relationship with God, and therefore cannot ever be righteous with God, God takes it upon himself to do the bridging. He creates a New Covenant, a final covenant, the most binding covenant of all, which man cannot break. God sends his only-begotten son to act as a perfect sacrifice, a final sacrifice which will erase all sin which stains man. Christ comes to earth, lives a perfect life, provides the perfect model for how God wants humanity to live, and finally, amidst his perfection, he is killed as that final, perfect sacrifice to atone for sin.'

 

And every point you make --- each one of which is absolutely true --- is itself God the Son showing forth the Glorious attributes of the Godhead --- perfect love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice.

 

You see Knapp... in all of what Christ has done, we stand in awe of the great glory of God! The church exists to worship the Lord in view of who He is and what He has done.

 

You also said ---

 

"That was Christ's purpose here - to be the perfection we could not be, and ultimately to be sacrificed as a perfect offering to God as atonement for our sins."

 

Here I counter by saying you have not delineated His purpose here (the purpose is to display God's Glory) --- rather, you have described one (of many) means by which He accomplished His His purpose.

 

One last point --- and this is HUGE --- when God places on display His Glory through Christ --- it is a perfectly giving act --- totally selfless. He gains nothing (in fact He suffers --- for Christ has suffered for the sins of men more so than has any man --- and He did so innocent in and of Himself and simply because He chose to bear our sin --- that we would not bear it ourselves). In all this, He gains nothing, and we gain everything. By displaying His glory we are saved. By His displaying His glory the world is changed --- and He gains nothing and we gain much. By showing forth His glory we are given the greatest gift that exists -- the privilege to revel in, enjoy, and declare that same glory --- and we are blessed beyond measure.

 

The pursuit of the church is not to change the world. The pursuit is to revel in, declare, and stand in awe of the glory of God through Christ --- and then to respond by serving others --- which, in a secondary sense, changes the world. To posit that the church exists to change the world is missing the point and making man (and the world) the end, rather than the means. Jesus came to this earth to display the Glory of God by saving men --- the saving of men was the means to the end --- the end being God-centered --- His Glory. My whole point is that we in the church must recognize that things Christian are centered upon God and not upon men. Let us not measure all things in view of men. The center of all reality is not men --- it is God.

 

To God be all Glory!

 

Hopefully this helps. Maybe????

[knapplc]

I think you're missing the point. The Glory of God, as you define it, is the basic essence of God. It is what God is. God would not be God without glory, and to believe in God is to inherently believe in that glory. Therefore God would not waste his time simply coming here to be glorious in our presence; what good would it do?

 

God's glory does not in and of itself solve the problem for which Jesus came, which is to bridge the gap between God and man. God can exist in his glory without that gap being bridged. God can come to earth and display his glory, live a life, and leave earth without that gap being bridged. God's glory is, therefore, coincidental to the true purpose of Jesus' life.

 

Make no mistake. There is ONE reason, and ONE reason only for Jesus to have come to earth. It has nothing to do with displaying that God is God, or God is glorious, or God is great. By focusing on those things you're focusing on the sizzle, not the steak.

 

Further, Jesus' ministry and miraculous works were coincidental to his mission as well. Sure, they helped to serve as bona fides to his godhead, but in and of themselves they were not his reason for coming.

 

The single, solitary, sole reason Christ came to earth was to bridge the gap between God and man, to erase the sin which forever removed us from God's presence, and to provide righteousness to the unrighteous. That is it, period, end of story. Every single other thing is coincidental to that purpose.

 

This is all well explained in the Covenant process throughout the Old Testament (see especially Jeremiah 31). This is all well explained in the verses pertaining to the Last Supper, and again in Hebrews (see especially Hebrews 8 and 12).

 

The Old Testament spends a lot of time leading up to this new covenant embodied in Jesus. Jeremiah and Isaiah spend a lot of time proclaiming man's inability to maintain a covenant relationship with God, through his sinful nature. Jeremiah in particular lambasts Israel (and humanity in general by extrapolation) because of our continuing unfaithfulness to our covenant relationship with God. Man turns away from God over and over and over despite God giving Man chance after chance after chance. Therefore God tells us, through his prophets, that he will give us one last chance, that he will create a covenant for us which we cannot break.

 

What were all of those covenants? Were they methods by which God could proclaim himself in glory to man? No - God has no reason to proclaim his glory, and routinely does not. He describes himself basically, "I am," and "There is no other like me." God has no need to boast - he is without peer, therefore why boast? Displaying his glory would be entirely boastful, and wholly unnecessary. Nope. All of those covenants were methods by which the relationship between God and man could be made right again. Since Adam and Eve broke troth with God, that has been the main goal of nearly every one of God's interactions with man.

 

So when it comes time to make THE covenant, the last covenant, the binding, everlasting covenant, God sends his son (who is also God), to be the mechanism by which the covenant is consummated. Had Jesus come to earth, proclaimed the glory of God, lived a life and left us with a lot of wisdom, but did not die in our place, his trip would have been wasted. The death of the perfect son was the sole reason he came here and lived among us. All else, whether that be teaching or miracles or whatever else, including flashing the glory card, was superfluous to that single, necessary act.

 

Maybe you and I are just messing around with semantics. I'm trying to be as specific and clear as I can, in my verbose way. If you want me to dig out my bible study stuff and draw the map via actual verses I'll do that.

[robsker]

I think you're missing the point. The Glory of God, as you define it, is the basic essence of God. It is what God is. God would not be God without glory, and to believe in God is to inherently believe in that glory. Therefore God would not waste his time simply coming here to be glorious in our presence; what good would it do?

 

God's glory does not in and of itself solve the problem for which Jesus came, which is to bridge the gap between God and man. God can exist in his glory without that gap being bridged. God can come to earth and display his glory, live a life, and leave earth without that gap being bridged. God's glory is, therefore, coincidental to the true purpose of Jesus' life.

 

Make no mistake. There is ONE reason, and ONE reason only for Jesus to have come to earth. It has nothing to do with displaying that God is God, or God is glorious, or God is great. By focusing on those things you're focusing on the sizzle, not the steak.

 

Further, Jesus' ministry and miraculous works were coincidental to his mission as well. Sure, they helped to serve as bona fides to his godhead, but in and of themselves they were not his reason for coming.

 

The single, solitary, sole reason Christ came to earth was to bridge the gap between God and man, to erase the sin which forever removed us from God's presence, and to provide righteousness to the unrighteous. That is it, period, end of story. Every single other thing is coincidental to that purpose.

 

This is all well explained in the Covenant process throughout the Old Testament (see especially Jeremiah 31). This is all well explained in the verses pertaining to the Last Supper, and again in Hebrews (see especially Hebrews 8 and 12).

 

The Old Testament spends a lot of time leading up to this new covenant embodied in Jesus. Jeremiah and Isaiah spend a lot of time proclaiming man's inability to maintain a covenant relationship with God, through his sinful nature. Jeremiah in particular lambasts Israel (and humanity in general by extrapolation) because of our continuing unfaithfulness to our covenant relationship with God. Man turns away from God over and over and over despite God giving Man chance after chance after chance. Therefore God tells us, through his prophets, that he will give us one last chance, that he will create a covenant for us which we cannot break.

 

What were all of those covenants? Were they methods by which God could proclaim himself in glory to man? No - God has no reason to proclaim his glory, and routinely does not. He describes himself basically, "I am," and "There is no other like me." God has no need to boast - he is without peer, therefore why boast? Displaying his glory would be entirely boastful, and wholly unnecessary. Nope. All of those covenants were methods by which the relationship between God and man could be made right again. Since Adam and Eve broke troth with God, that has been the main goal of nearly every one of God's interactions with man.

 

So when it comes time to make THE covenant, the last covenant, the binding, everlasting covenant, God sends his son (who is also God), to be the mechanism by which the covenant is consummated. Had Jesus come to earth, proclaimed the glory of God, lived a life and left us with a lot of wisdom, but did not die in our place, his trip would have been wasted. The death of the perfect son was the sole reason he came here and lived among us. All else, whether that be teaching or miracles or whatever else, including flashing the glory card, was superfluous to that single, necessary act.

 

Maybe you and I are just messing around with semantics. I'm trying to be as specific and clear as I can, in my verbose way. If you want me to dig out my bible study stuff and draw the map via actual verses I'll do that.

 

So Knapp... is the single highest order reality then... the salvation of men?

[robsker]

I think you're missing the point. The Glory of God, as you define it, is the basic essence of God. It is what God is. God would not be God without glory, and to believe in God is to inherently believe in that glory. Therefore God would not waste his time simply coming here to be glorious in our presence; what good would it do?

 

God's glory does not in and of itself solve the problem for which Jesus came, which is to bridge the gap between God and man. God can exist in his glory without that gap being bridged. God can come to earth and display his glory, live a life, and leave earth without that gap being bridged. God's glory is, therefore, coincidental to the true purpose of Jesus' life.

 

Make no mistake. There is ONE reason, and ONE reason only for Jesus to have come to earth. It has nothing to do with displaying that God is God, or God is glorious, or God is great. By focusing on those things you're focusing on the sizzle, not the steak.

 

Further, Jesus' ministry and miraculous works were coincidental to his mission as well. Sure, they helped to serve as bona fides to his godhead, but in and of themselves they were not his reason for coming.

 

The single, solitary, sole reason Christ came to earth was to bridge the gap between God and man, to erase the sin which forever removed us from God's presence, and to provide righteousness to the unrighteous. That is it, period, end of story. Every single other thing is coincidental to that purpose.

 

This is all well explained in the Covenant process throughout the Old Testament (see especially Jeremiah 31). This is all well explained in the verses pertaining to the Last Supper, and again in Hebrews (see especially Hebrews 8 and 12).

 

The Old Testament spends a lot of time leading up to this new covenant embodied in Jesus. Jeremiah and Isaiah spend a lot of time proclaiming man's inability to maintain a covenant relationship with God, through his sinful nature. Jeremiah in particular lambasts Israel (and humanity in general by extrapolation) because of our continuing unfaithfulness to our covenant relationship with God. Man turns away from God over and over and over despite God giving Man chance after chance after chance. Therefore God tells us, through his prophets, that he will give us one last chance, that he will create a covenant for us which we cannot break.

 

What were all of those covenants? Were they methods by which God could proclaim himself in glory to man? No - God has no reason to proclaim his glory, and routinely does not. He describes himself basically, "I am," and "There is no other like me." God has no need to boast - he is without peer, therefore why boast? Displaying his glory would be entirely boastful, and wholly unnecessary. Nope. All of those covenants were methods by which the relationship between God and man could be made right again. Since Adam and Eve broke troth with God, that has been the main goal of nearly every one of God's interactions with man.

 

So when it comes time to make THE covenant, the last covenant, the binding, everlasting covenant, God sends his son (who is also God), to be the mechanism by which the covenant is consummated. Had Jesus come to earth, proclaimed the glory of God, lived a life and left us with a lot of wisdom, but did not die in our place, his trip would have been wasted. The death of the perfect son was the sole reason he came here and lived among us. All else, whether that be teaching or miracles or whatever else, including flashing the glory card, was superfluous to that single, necessary act.

 

Maybe you and I are just messing around with semantics. I'm trying to be as specific and clear as I can, in my verbose way. If you want me to dig out my bible study stuff and draw the map via actual verses I'll do that.

 

 

Some thoughts.... Why did God create us?

 

Isaiah 43:67: "Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth (says the Lord), everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory."

 

* Why did God choose a people for himself and make Israel his possession?

 

Jeremiah 13:11: "I made the whole house of Israel...cling to me, says the Lord, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise and a glory."

 

 

* Why did God lead His people from bondage in Egypt?

 

Psalm 106:78: "Our fathers when they were in Egypt did not consider thy wonderful works...but rebelled against the Most High at the Red Sea. Yet he saved them for his name's sake that he might make known his mighty power."

 

* Why did God spare them again and again in the wilderness?

 

Ezekiel 20:14: "I acted for the sake of my name. that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out."

 

* Why didn't God cast away his people when they rejected him as king and asked for a king like the nations?

 

1 Sam 12:20,22: "Fear not, you have done all this evil, yet do not turn aside

from following the Lord ... For the Lord will not cast away his people for His great names sake."

 

* Why did God use his sovereign power to bring back his people from exile after punishing four generations of sin?

 

Isaiah 48:9,11: "For MY name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you ... For my own sake, for my own sake I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

 

* Why does God regenerate His people? Why is it that God saves men? Why does God “remove our hearts of stone and replace them with a heart of flesh” --- that is, why does God, through Grace, recreate us that we should be “born again”?

 

Eze. 36:22 - 23: "Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name ... And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name ... and the nations will know that I am the Lord. It is not for your sake that I will act says the Lord God. Let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, house of Israel."

 

* Why did the Son of God come to earth? Why did He die on the cross? What was God’s ultimate highest order purpose in Christ?

 

John 17:1: "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee."

 

* Why will Jesus come again in the great day of consummation?

 

2 Thes. 1:9,10: "Those who do not obey the gospel will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all who have believed..."

 

To perfectly love is to give the perfect gift. And, of course, that gift, in order to be perfect, must be infinite in magnitude and must also be a gift that never fades. It must be a gift that is infinite and eternal. So then? Dwell upon the upcoming question before you read past it.

 

What could God give us to enjoy that would show him most loving?

 

There is only one possible answer, isn't there? HIMSELF! If God would give us the best, the most satisfying; the most perfect, most loving, most awesome, most infinite and incredible gift ever, then He can give but one thing; Himself. If He would love us perfectly, He must give us no less than the greatest thing in all reality. He would give us Himself. He would give us Himself for our contemplation and for our fellowship and for our joy.

 

Ps. 16:11 "In thy presence is fullness of joy. In thy right hand are pleasures for evermore"

 

This was precisely God's intention in sending his Son --- The giving of Himself that we would revel in and enjoy His glory forever. The means (among other means as well) by which He did this was the sending of His Son.

 

I do not disagree with virtually anything (though there are some points of difference) on the work of Christ that you describe --- it is just that the work of Christ is to be properly framed as being the means to an end --- and that end is God's Glory that we, by grace, share in because of Christ.

[knapplc]

While I appreciate the copypasta of Pastor Piper's sermon, his description of God chooses to ignore the entirety of the Covenant relationship, and thus most of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is entirely necessary prelude to understanding the mission of Jesus Christ. Misunderstanding it leads to erroneous contentions like these.

 

Really, if the whole point of God is to glorify God, then why make creation? Creation is sinful, and has fallen, and therefore cannot accurately reflect the glory of God. God is perfection; the blemishes of Creation detract from that perfection. Were God only interested in his glory, we would never exist, nor would angels.

 

Why did the Son of God come to earth? Why did He die on the cross? What was God’s ultimate highest order purpose in Christ?

 

The answer Mr. Piper proposes to this question is probably his greatest blunder, and (to me) entirely throws his contention that God's purpose is to glorify himself out of consideration. John 3:16, the most well-known of all verses in the Bible, puts paid to this notion: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." THAT was Jesus' purpose, and the glory Jesus' actions gave to God followed along in the wake of this act.

 

The Glory of God is the sizzle, not the steak. It's the wake, not the boat. God cannot exist without Glory, so necessarily the gloriousness of God will be discussed prominently in relation to God - just as his love, his anger and his uniqueness are, as well. I could pull dozens of verses from the Bible talking about God's love, God's anger and the unique nature of God - but that doesn't mean that any of these are the reason God exists, or why he sent Jesus to us.

[robsker]

While I appreciate the copypasta of Pastor Piper's sermon, his description of God chooses to ignore the entirety of the Covenant relationship, and thus most of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is entirely necessary prelude to understanding the mission of Jesus Christ. Misunderstanding it leads to erroneous contentions like these.

 

Really, if the whole point of God is to glorify God, then why make creation? Creation is sinful, and has fallen, and therefore cannot accurately reflect the glory of God. God is perfection; the blemishes of Creation detract from that perfection. Were God only interested in his glory, we would never exist, nor would angels.

 

Why did the Son of God come to earth? Why did He die on the cross? What was God’s ultimate highest order purpose in Christ?

 

The answer Mr. Piper proposes to this question is probably his greatest blunder, and (to me) entirely throws his contention that God's purpose is to glorify himself out of consideration. John 3:16, the most well-known of all verses in the Bible, puts paid to this notion: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." THAT was Jesus' purpose, and the glory Jesus' actions gave to God followed along in the wake of this act.

 

The Glory of God is the sizzle, not the steak. It's the wake, not the boat. God cannot exist without Glory, so necessarily the gloriousness of God will be discussed prominently in relation to God - just as his love, his anger and his uniqueness are, as well. I could pull dozens of verses from the Bible talking about God's love, God's anger and the unique nature of God - but that doesn't mean that any of these are the reason God exists, or why he sent Jesus to us.

 

 

Knapp.... firstly... what I provided was not a cut and paste from John Piper. That said, my take on the purpose that Jesus came is not original to me (of course). Nor is it original to John Piper (for those following this who may not know, John is a contemporary). The position I espose was not even original to Martin Luther, Theodore Beza or John Calvin, or Jonathon Edwards --- or any of hundreds of theologians from the 16th or 17th centuries on to and including the present who hold very similar to identical views. The view that God's preeminent driving purpose for all that He does is displaying His glory --- which is a loving, giving and other-centered act of grace on His behalf --- dates back to Saint Augustine. It is a view consistent with the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Heidelberg Catechism, and an array of Reformed statements. So... original to me? No. Hopefully no one got that impression. It is a classic perspective that has been embraced by millions of people over a 1500-1800 year span.

 

Knapp... We will drop this now as you seem to be entrenched in your view (which is, of course, your right). I close this with just a few things for everyones consideration.

 

Knapp: "Creation is sinful, and has fallen, and therefore cannot accurately reflect the glory of God." In and of itself, no it cannot. That God's glorious love is so profoundly great that He sent His Son to bear the sin penalty for those for whom Christ died --- that those who are in Christ would be declared innocent --- because Christ served their sin penalty --- this display of infinite sacrificial giving, love and grace so astoundingly displays God's glory that we cannot but fall on our knees and praise Him. Mans fallen sin is the context in which Christ's love is manifest. That manifest love shows forth the Glory of God.

 

Knapp: "The answer Mr. Piper proposes to this question is probably his greatest blunder, and (to me) entirely throws his contention that God's purpose is to glorify himself out of consideration." Here I will defend Pastor Piper. John Piper in no way contends that "God's purpose is to glorify himself" --- that is a misunderstanding of Piper (and me, and Luther, and Calvin, and Augustine, and most anyone who holds the views I am trying to articulate). God the Son glorifies the Father. The Holy Spirit glorifies the Father and the Son. The Father glorifies the Son. This is all an expression of inter-Trinitarian love and is not self-centered at all. In fact, the intertrinitarian love manifest as one Person glorifying the other is a love that subsumes the whole of creation. The expression of inter-Trinitarian love between the Persons of the Trinity is manifest in displaying the glory of the Godhead. In so doing, we are infinitely blessed. In the manifestation of inter-Trinitarian love between the Persons of the Trinity, humanity is blessed. It is other-centered and that it is other-centered is not necessary --- but is an expression of grace.

 

I'll close with a short illustration. If one would characterize Jesus as a great teacher, they would be quite correct. He was a great teacher. A true statement. If someone were to characterize Jesus as a prophet they would be quite correct. He was a great prophet. A true statement again. If you stopped there and finished the characterization of who Christ is with these two truths you would conclude in error. Two secondary truths can add up to a false conclusion if those truths are not framed within the larger and preeminent truth --- that Jesus is God.

In a similar sense, it is absolutely true that the purpose of Christ on earth was to save men. It is also absolutely true that Christ came and did what He did (lived a perfect live, died a sacrificial death) out of love for men. Very true and absolutely Biblical. And, He came to defeat the devil. Again, true and Biblical. And, in fact, there are another half dozen or so reasons Christ came to earth that are enumerated in the Scriptures. All these reasons line up with, flow from, are the result of, and are driven by God placing on display --- for the benefit of others --- His great glory before men and angels. If we characterize the reasons for Christs coming on earth , limiting it to the truths that are the lesser truths (true as they are), and do not recognize the preeminent reason --- we end in error and assume that the salvation of man is the highest order reality (when it is not). It is just like saying that Christ was a great teacher and prophet --- true... but incomplete and missing the essential reality. To posit that Christ came to save men -- and to stop there --- leaves you at a certain truth, yes.. but leaves you with a man-centered focus (which has a component of idolatry associated with it) rather than what is the full truth --- a God-centered focus.

 

As we marvel at His greatness, we stand in awe and worship. As we stand in awe and worship Him for His greatness we desire to respond in love towards Him. In this, we recognize the interchange between Peter and Jesus in John 21 --- where Jesus asks Peter "Do you love me?" --- Three times. Each time Peter says "Yes Lord, I love you." Each time Jesus says "The feed my sheep." Here Jesus teaches the profound truth that we are to express our love for Him by serving others. This is how the church responds to the glorious God who has saved them --- by loving and serving others. This is the purpose of the church (which is how this whole interchange began) --- the purpose of the church is to Worship God in Christ, doing so in Spirit and in truth --- and an expression of that worship is "feeding the sheep." That is how the church changes the world. The pursuit is not to change the world. The pursuit is not toward men... directly. The pursuit is to worship God in Christ --- in the framework of the pursuit (Worshiping the Glorious God who saved us --- and expressing our love for Him in service to others)we serve men and the world changes.

 

This is Robsker signing off on this one. Soli deo Gloria and in all things Christ Preeminent. Thank you for providing a forum in which to share these views. And Knapp, thank you for your thoughtful contributions and for leading this board --- it is a neat service to the community.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Piper's take on the I think we will end up haveing to agree to

[knapplc]

You did copypasta from John Piper. Here's one source, word for word with this post. Those are Piper's points, from a sermon he gave sometime in the 1980s (If I recall correctly).

 

Piper most certainly does say that the purpose of God is to glorify himself. The very first line of the first paragraph of the points you copied states, "I would like to try to persuade you that the chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy Himself forever. Or to put it another way: the chief end of God is to enjoy glorifying Himself." This is a picture of a self-serving God, not a loving God.

 

 

Frankly, if this is truly the God of Christianity, it doesn't hold water. Creation would be pointless, or rather, it would point to a God so vain that the entire reason for Creation was to provide him with praise. But even if that's the God of Christianity, why make man? He already had angels to do his worshiping. What need does he have of man?

[bennychico11]

Frankly, if this is truly the God of Christianity, it doesn't hold water. Creation would be pointless, or rather, it would point to a God so vain that the entire reason for Creation was to provide him with praise. But even if that's the God of Christianity, why make man? He already had angels to do his worshiping. What need does he have of man?

 

If such an all knowing, all powerful, all loving god did exist, I would hope to assume he wouldn't require worship. How egotistical would that make him? Not only that, but then to send down his only son to tell everyone they should be worshiping him and then to kill him off as a "sacrifice" (only to really arise several days later and be awarded the position of "god").

 

If I brought in a homeless person into my house, offered him food, shelter and a good paying job so that he could live the rest of his days in happiness...should I require worship?

If I saved a child from dying...should he bow to me?

Or should the happiness knowing I helped someone be enough?

 

Had Jesus come to earth, proclaimed the glory of God, lived a life and left us with a lot of wisdom, but did not die in our place, his trip would have been wasted. The death of the perfect son was the sole reason he came here and lived among us. All else, whether that be teaching or miracles or whatever else, including flashing the glory card, was superfluous to that single, necessary act.

 

What if, interestingly, he had done what he came to do and everyone he came in contact with (Pontius Pilot, the Romans, etc) all came to the realization that he was indeed the son of god? That they should worship him and follow Jesus and his disciples? No sacrifice, no resurrection...Jesus just lives and dies like a normal good person (or does he die? Highlander?)

[zoogs]

Martyrdom is a powerful idea. The story of Jesus is just an early (and profound) example. Famous martyrs have stirred up much influence over the ages, or at least people who have "died as martyrs". And many attempt to follow in that path and thereby gain the same kind of respect and have the same kind of sweeping influence, from suicide bombers, to missionaries who don't defend themselves from cannibals, to monks who set themselves on fire.

 

I wonder though, if the Romans were more cognizant of the effect of killing this guy, if they let him live and rot in a prison instead, what his legacy would have been.