House votes to defund Planned Parenthood

[knapplc]

That bill doesn't make EVERY miscarriage illegal. It's basically saying that if they can prove the mother intentionally miscarried, that's murder. Women can do all kinds of things to themselves, including ingesting all kinds of things, to make themselves miscarry.

 

In fact, that's how women used to have abortions before "modern" medicine arrived on the scene. Reproductive scenarios throughout history are pretty grim for women. Death via childbirth was probably one of the leading causes of death in a woman for millennia. Women have had it pretty rough since we crawled from that first primordial pool.

[krill]

That's true that some miscarriages are intentional. A few points though:

 

-Roughly 50% of all pregnancies end with miscarriage with 80% occurrence in the firs trimester.

 

-The thought of launching a full scale murder investigation for a miscarriage. Every instance of miscarriage would presumably require a trial to prove innocence. Think about the burden on the justice system; it would turn pregnancy for all women into a nightmare.

 

-How many intentional miscarriages are due to lack of access to professional health care services (like planned parenthood)? Probably going to see more of this if planned parenthood is defunded. Additionally, there's been a sharp decline of providers, making it more difficult to have an abortion. It would seem reasonable to speculate that this may, or already is leading to more do it yourself and dark alley methods.

[knapplc]

That's true that some miscarriages are intentional. A few points though:

 

-Roughly 50% of all pregnancies end with miscarriage with 80% occurrence in the firs trimester.

 

-The thought of launching a full scale murder investigation for a miscarriage. Every instance of miscarriage would presumably require a trial to prove innocence. Think about the burden on the justice system; it would turn pregnancy for all women into a nightmare.

 

-How many intentional miscarriages are due to lack of access to professional health care services (like planned parenthood)? Probably going to see more of this if planned parenthood is defunded. Additionally, there's been a sharp decline of providers, making it more difficult to have an abortion. It would seem reasonable to speculate that this may, or already is leading to more do it yourself and dark alley methods.

I don't think anyone is taking this bill seriously, which is why I wouldn't worry too much about whether every miscarriage would have to be investigated. It's not going to pass - it's just another crazy piece of legislation from a known crazy legislator. I certainly didn't mean to imply that I support this bill or that I think miscarriages today are a result of intent. I've known far too many couples who've miscarried to ever imply that.

 

Those relatively few miscarriages that are intentional, due to lack of funds or lack of availability, are tragic. First, the baby is murdered, and that's horrific. Second, the woman (I hate to call her "mother" because she obviously does not wish to be a mother) is jeopardized in the extreme, because whatever method she chooses will be harmful to her body. It's a horrible situation all around.

[74Hunter]

I know that I may be asking too much, but maybe people who can't afford birth control or a child shouldn't be having sex?

 

Shocking revelation, I know, and probably not too popular, but it is what it is. I understand the importance and the "good" of PP and similar clinics, but I have a hard time believing that our tax money should fund them.

[carlfense]

I know that I may be asking too much, but maybe people who can't afford birth control or a child shouldn't be having sex?

 

Shocking revelation, I know, and probably not too popular, but it is what it is. I understand the importance and the "good" of PP and similar clinics, but I have a hard time believing that our tax money should fund them.

Agreed, but the reality of the situation says that they will be having sex regardless.

 

Also, regarding the bold, I'd much rather our tax dollars be subsidizing condoms than subsidizing children. One is certainly cheaper than the other.

[huskerjack23]

I know that I may be asking too much, but maybe people who can't afford birth control or a child shouldn't be having sex?

 

Shocking revelation, I know, and probably not too popular, but it is what it is. I understand the importance and the "good" of PP and similar clinics, but I have a hard time believing that our tax money should fund them.

Agreed, but the reality of the situation says that they will be having sex regardless.

 

Also, regarding the bold, I'd much rather our tax dollars be subsidizing condoms than subsidizing children. One is certainly cheaper than the other.

Helping people make cost-effective decisions should be an essential priority, especially with something as important as child rearing. If you are pro-life, make sure that the life lives as well it possibly can. Planned Parenthood helps provide that service.

[knapplc]

Helping people make cost-effective decisions should be an essential priority, especially with something as important as child rearing. If you are pro-life, make sure that the life lives as well it possibly can. Planned Parenthood helps provide that service.

 

By murdering it? Let's be realistic here.

[strigori]

Helping people make cost-effective decisions should be an essential priority, especially with something as important as child rearing. If you are pro-life, make sure that the life lives as well it possibly can. Planned Parenthood helps provide that service.

 

By murdering it? Let's be realistic here.

The vast, vast majority of the people who use Planned Parenthood are not getting abortions. Most people who use their services are receiving birth control, STD tests, cancer screening, prenatal care, and hell, education. Yeah, lets shut it down and leave all those people out in the cold. The Gov money is going to these services. More unplanned, unwanted children, and more STDs going around sound like good things to me. And don't start with the 'private business' will compensate, as these people who use Planned Parenthood tend to be unable to afford the aforementioned services.

[carlfense]

Helping people make cost-effective decisions should be an essential priority, especially with something as important as child rearing. If you are pro-life, make sure that the life lives as well it possibly can. Planned Parenthood helps provide that service.

 

By murdering it? Let's be realistic here.

 

I don't think the "murder" label is helpful in this type of discussion. It's a heated topic without escalating the rhetoric.

 

I don't belief that "life" (in the sense of a human life) begins at conception but I struggle to draw a clear line. I would have zero qualms about aborting a fetus when it is 2-3 cells. At that point, while technically alive and growing, I can't bring myself to conclude that it is a person. That said, on the opposite end I would NOT be ok with an abortion immediately prior to live natural birth.

 

There is a line somewhere between those points where my opinion shifts.

[krill]

I don't think anyone is taking this bill seriously, which is why I wouldn't worry too much about whether every miscarriage would have to be investigated.

 

I don't think so either either and to an extent it's disingenuous to present idiot state representatives like Bobby Franklin and Mark Christensen as the political face of the pro-life movement. Nevertheless it's difficult to deny that as a whole the tone of the debate has become more militant, which again I argue is for no other reason to drum up campaign donations and support for otherwise failed politicians. Isn't it curious that the most extreme positions seem to be overwhelmingly held by men?

 

Strigori is right, eliminating planned parenthood is a cure the headache by cutting off the head solution. I have a really hard time taking the pro-life argument seriously when the same group is also clinging to abstinence education programs of dubious efficacy and systematically dismantling social programs that help low income mothers.

[knapplc]

The vast, vast majority of the people who use Planned Parenthood are not getting abortions. Most people who use their services are receiving birth control, STD tests, cancer screening, prenatal care, and hell, education. Yeah, lets shut it down and leave all those people out in the cold. The Gov money is going to these services. More unplanned, unwanted children, and more STDs going around sound like good things to me. And don't start with the 'private business' will compensate, as these people who use Planned Parenthood tend to be unable to afford the aforementioned services.

 

It doesn't matter if the vast, vast majority of the people who use Planned Parenthood are not getting abortions. According to their own stats they conducted 305,310 abortions in 2007, so while they may provide more condoms to people than abortions, they're still killing a lot of children. I just don't see how people can so blithely dismiss the fact that these are babies being killed.

 

I don't have a problem with handing out condoms, or STD tests, or cancer screening or any of the other services they provide. I just want them to stop killing babies as a means of contraception.

 

I want cops to stop being corrupt and stop abetting the Mob in Chicago. That doesn't mean I want the Chicago PD shut down - just stop doing the bad things. It's this "all or nothing" attitude towards PP that makes it so hard to have a conversation with people about this.

[knapplc]

Helping people make cost-effective decisions should be an essential priority, especially with something as important as child rearing. If you are pro-life, make sure that the life lives as well it possibly can. Planned Parenthood helps provide that service.

 

By murdering it? Let's be realistic here.

 

I don't think the "murder" label is helpful in this type of discussion. It's a heated topic without escalating the rhetoric.

 

I don't belief that "life" (in the sense of a human life) begins at conception but I struggle to draw a clear line. I would have zero qualms about aborting a fetus when it is 2-3 cells. At that point, while technically alive and growing, I can't bring myself to conclude that it is a person. That said, on the opposite end I would NOT be ok with an abortion immediately prior to live natural birth.

 

There is a line somewhere between those points where my opinion shifts.

 

The term "murder" is appropriate depending on when you believe life begins. You can couch it in whatever term you like, but if you believe (as I do) that life begins at conception, then you can't not define it as murder. You can dive elbows-deep into the viability debate and still end up using that term.

[muzicman0]

I don't get how people don't think even 2-3 cells is a human life. By what criteria are you making this decision???? By ALL scientific definitions, this would not only be considered life, but human life. The only thing I can figure is that it is convenient and helps people justify their actions and or beliefs to ignore the facts.

 

mm0

[bennychico11]

I have a really hard time taking the pro-life argument seriously when the same group is also clinging to abstinence education programs of dubious efficacy and systematically dismantling social programs that help low income mothers.

And the same group who says adoption should be an alternative...but they're also against gays adopting.

 

 

 

I want cops to stop being corrupt and stop abetting the Mob in Chicago. That doesn't mean I want the Chicago PD shut down - just stop doing the bad things. It's this "all or nothing" attitude towards PP that makes it so hard to have a conversation with people about this.

 

except abetting ogranized crime is illegal. Abortions aren't. It's an all or nothing thing with Planned Parenthood because they have the right to perform the service if their patients request it. I hope that all other options are brought up during discussion with the patient. I hope the mother understands the ramifications of what they're doing. But a bill of attainder should not be brought against the organization.

[knapplc]

I want cops to stop being corrupt and stop abetting the Mob in Chicago. That doesn't mean I want the Chicago PD shut down - just stop doing the bad things. It's this "all or nothing" attitude towards PP that makes it so hard to have a conversation with people about this.

 

except abetting ogranized crime is illegal. Abortions aren't. It's an all or nothing thing with Planned Parenthood because they have the right to perform the service if their patients request it. I hope that all other options are brought up during discussion with the patient. I hope the mother understands the ramifications of what they're doing. But a bill of attainder should not be brought against the organization.

 

Right, but in my opinion abortion-as-contraception should be illegal.