Another Oklahoma Fail

[Junior]

DNA evidence would be helpful, multiple corroborating witnesses without any real variation in story, video/photogrpahic evidence, etc. You could construct a statute that would lay down a framework for it. I'm not saying all of the above al lthe time, just providing examples of some things that could be included in combinations.

 

Who would decide? I dunno, leave it to a jury or a judge.

 

Eye witnesses are notoriously poor forms of evidence. They can see things they think they saw and be compelled by police to tell the story the police want to hear.

[EbylHusker]

Multiple corroborating eyewitnesses to an event where the story does not differ much is a much more reliable thing. I totally agree that a single witness can't be treated as fully reliable. But when you have something like 3 people coming forward and saying the same thing? That takes a lot more work to refute. If you combine that with some other form of solid evidence, you're going to have the right person.

[EbylHusker]

We can discuss this until everyone is blue in the face, but the simple truth is people who believe in the death sentence will never convince people who don't, and vice versa. We just have to agree to disagree, and live in states where people are either put down or not based on your own personal beliefs.

[Junior]

Multiple corroborating eyewitnesses to an event where the story does not differ much is a much more reliable thing. I totally agree that a single witness can't be treated as fully reliable. But when you have something like 3 people coming forward and saying the same thing? That takes a lot more work to refute. If you combine that with some other form of solid evidence, you're going to have the right person.

 

What kind of witnesses? 3 career criminals with something to gain from police cooperation?

[EbylHusker]

Any kind you want as long as the investigation is handled right. If you want to talk about corruption within the police force, that's a separate issue. It would take some serious corruption to get 3 separate people to give the exact same story, and then also fake some other kind of solid evidence. So much corruption that it would be nearly impossible to do without leaving footprints that could be tracked back to the corruption.

 

Incompetence within the police force is another issue as well, since if an investigation is handled wrong, evidence is thrown out of court.

[BigRedBuster]

You know who was really punished in this? The SOB that was supposed to be the second execution that night.

 

I'm sure he is sitting in his cell saying......"holy fuuuuu......."

[tschu]

Death row inmates are a much larger strain on the legal system than the perceived problem of "clogging up jail cells"

We killed a whole 39 people in 2013. Hardly helping the overcrowding issue.

[carlfense]

It's not an invented problem, our jails are overcrowded. Overcrowded to the extent that people are trying to find ways to release even handfuls of convicted criminals, so it's obviously something people feel needs to be done.

We could take a giant step towards addressing that problem by not placing non-violent drug possession offenders in prison.

We could, but that has nothing to do with this. That could be done at the same time as continuing to kill our death row inmates at a faster, cheaper pace. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor do they need to be. Both will help free up room in the jails, lower costs, etc.

If you think that part of the reason for the death penalty is because of overcrowding then other ways of reducing overcrowding has everything to do with this.

[carlfense]

True, if we killed them faster, there would be less time for appeal and we'd probably hear less about those pesky innocent parties being convicted of crimes they didn't commit.

This is true . . . those pesky innocents, getting in the way of our killing.

[tschu]

As usual we are not going to agree on this issue tschu but I think you're being overly dramatic saying DP supporters have the most mind-blowing viewpoint of anything in politics and morality. Per your numbered points;

 

1- I don't look at it as an "eye for an eye" type punishment but rather the ultimate punishment for the most heinous of crimes. More a situation of making sure they never have a chance of doing anything like it again.

You know what else would make sure of this? Life without parole.

2- I agree, life in prison is worse thereby making the death penalty more humane than life.

Wow.

3- No doubt the costs for appeals and deathrow inmates is out of control. That says a whole lot more about our system than it does the validity of the DP

So you think that not only should we keep the death penalty, but we should have no appeals - increasing the possibility of a mistake?

4- I don't give two sh#ts about the criminals family. Why on earth would you put their concerns ahead of the victim, their family, and society in general. This is a weak ass excuse.

No, it's just real life. It's probably the weakest argument, but it's an argument nonetheless.

5- Once again that is an indictment of our legal system and not the death penalty. Kill them the next day, without appeal, and this becomes a moot point.

No, because I was citing the costs of the execution alone, not the appeals process. Executions are really, really expensive.

6- Two wrongs don't make a right- correct. That doesn't mean there can't be consequences for certain actions. IMO, life in prison is more cruel than the death penalty. You admitted as much in your item #2.

Life in prison is more of a punishment, and more humane. So why do you still advocate the death penalty?

7- I think you could guarantee a painless execution. Knock em out with anesthesia and then kill them. I don't know why they don't do it this way. Once again it's more a problem of how our system does things than with the DP itself.

This is exactly what they do. It can still be botched for many reasons.

8- And once again #8 simply points out how our system is failing. An innocent person should not be punished. It matters little for the point if that punishment is a fine, incarceration, or execution. Not assuring guilt is a problem of the system and not the form of punishment.

Yet the consequences with the death penalty are so much greater. If new evidence comes about (this happens all the time) that proves a life sentence inmate innocent, guess what, we can let him go. We can't bring an executed person back to life.

 

Some people get too hung up on thinking death is the absolute worst thing. I guess that is natural for people who have no belief in eternal life.

Now we're making this a religious issue? It's my fault for not believing in eternal life?

 

Now if we want to talk about questionable morals, let's visit about people who are opposed to the death penalty (for people who have proven through their own actions that they don't deserve to live) but have no problem with abortion of an innocent fetus who has harmed absolutely no one. Talk about mind blowing......

Strawman/red herring. Has no place in this discussion. Please stop doing that.

Bolded.

[carlfense]

5- Once again that is an indictment of our legal system and not the death penalty. Kill them the next day, without appeal, and this becomes a moot point.

Wow.

 

Not much else to say.

 

Bunch of good folks up in here.

[carlfense]

Multiple corroborating eyewitnesses to an event where the story does not differ much is a much more reliable thing. I totally agree that a single witness can't be treated as fully reliable. But when you have something like 3 people coming forward and saying the same thing? That takes a lot more work to refute. If you combine that with some other form of solid evidence, you're going to have the right person.

No . . . just no.

[tschu]

5- Once again that is an indictment of our legal system and not the death penalty. Kill them the next day, without appeal, and this becomes a moot point.

Wow.

 

Not much else to say.

 

Bunch of good christian folks up in here.

Some people get too hung up on thinking death is the absolute worst thing. I guess that is natural for people who have no belief in eternal life.

 

Now if we want to talk about questionable morals, let's visit about people who are opposed to the death penalty (for people who have proven through their own actions that they don't deserve to live) but have no problem with abortion of an innocent fetus who has harmed absolutely no one. Talk about mind blowing......

 

The hypocrisy found in Christendom is what drove me far, far away. It's "pick and choose what you want to believe." At best. Love your neighbor as yourself, and Jesus forgives us all for our sins. Unless you're a convicted killer, then murder that bastard. No appeals. Kill him now. But alas, let's stick to the topic at hand shall we.

[JJ Husker]

5- Once again that is an indictment of our legal system and not the death penalty. Kill them the next day, without appeal, and this becomes a moot point.

Wow.

 

Not much else to say.

 

Bunch of good christian folks up in here.

I know sometimes it can be hard to keep up with the discussion but my point was not to promote immediate executions but rather to point out that what tschu was complaining about was really the way our legal system works and not anything to do directly with the DP. Surely there are better ways to administer our system than allowing endless appeals and decades on death row. I guess some of you think our system is already as good as it ever could be.

[carlfense]

I know sometimes it can be hard to keep up with the discussion but my point was not to promote immediate executions but rather to point out that what tschu was complaining about was really the way our legal system works and not anything to do directly with the DP. Surely there are better ways to administer our system than allowing endless appeals and decades on death row.

If you're sure of a better way to come as close to certainty as possible then you should spell it out for us.

 

I guess some of you think our system is already as good as it ever could be.

Far from it but it's the best that I have seen so far. I'll gladly listen to suggestions if you can provide any.