Debt Ceiling

[VectorVictor]

sticking to the failed 'Cut, Cap, and Balance' idea like a petulant three year old.

 

 

In reference to the graphs. At what point did any of my posts say Bush/Regan did great things for our current economy?

What exactly is called out in the graphs? How do they indicate that 'Baggers' are wrong in the debate?

Did Cap & Balance fail because of politics or because it doesn't work?

What should we do? When do we 'Stop Kicking the Can?....Obama"?

At what point is it too high? When do we think it would be ok to start addressing the issue?

Millions of people run homes as businesses this way. Why is passion for the plan 'petulant'?

What would you do?

 

Since I know it's coming I'll just tell you what I would do. I would first start with a Tariff on imported goods from China. What this would do is atleast preserve a dying manufacturing sector in this country. I would then look at closing corporate tax loopholes for companies in this country. Companies are spending a ridiculous amount of money just to figure out how not to pay taxes. It wouldn't hurt really get into Hedgefunds and what they are doing to our economy. I would then look a percentage cuts across the board for all government funded programs from Military to Acorn. I would look to reward those that are able to maintain their same level of production/output/service on a reduced budget number. I would also look to put rewards/compensation in place to those that expose issues like welfare/medicaid fraud which are a serious issue in this country. I would push very hard for a consumption tax and destroy the income tax system completely. And probably the hardest, I would make all those that are able return fruit fields, construction sites and drive thrus that they have vacated because it is easier to sit at home and collect a check.

 

Honestly, what is it with the 'baggers that they only see the world in black and white; Christian and non-christian; good and evil? The real world is much more complex than what the 'bagger rhetoric addresses, yet we only see simple-minded solutions.

 

---

 

First off, a tariff on imported goods from China would only move the factories to Taiwan and Veitnam, among others. Plus, it will infuriate China to the point they call in debt that they are owed, which kills the US economy. Plus, this line of thought does nothing to address the more immediate and resolvable issue which is the manufacturing that the US lost to Canada and Central/South America.

 

You want appreciable results that won't result in economic retaliation? Then make it difficult for Ford and GM to manufacture vehicles south of the border--that would, almost overnight, create jobs in Detroit--one of the areas most in need of new jobs.

 

---

 

As for closing tax loopholes, the 'baggers aren't in favor of that. Any bill with such a feature was shot down quickly by Boehner because of 'bagger opposition to such an endeavor. Why? Because the corporate shills that are funding the astroturf 'bagger dance love nothing more than to exploit those holes harder and more often than a john that just dropped a grand on a high-priced call girl.

 

Income tax is a must--states that have no income tax (read: Texas) are currently on tenuous fiscal footing at best, and are a hair's breadth from insolvency at worst (which is closer to reality). Income tax is a requirement for doing business, but that doesn't mean it can't be reformed (e.g. remove Bush tax cuts, create flat tax). Problem is, 'baggers aren't in favor of that, either--they want the Bush tax cuts to stay in place (despite the data which shows it's the largest contributing factor to the current debt problem) because their corporate sponsors want it in place.

 

As for program cuts, you can't just make a blanket cut--doesn't work like that. Again, the whole black/white problem with 'baggers. Then again, were we not in Iraq, then military spending/debt doesn't become a concern. Afghanistan and Libya are, more or less, unavoidable, for various reasons, and were we not in Iraq, the later becomes another three-day war like 1991.

 

Also, why can't the 'baggers drop Acorn? It's like 'remember the Alamo', but with a 'bagger blogger who cut a video to make their desired outcome visible. It contains as much ethos as a Michael Moore piece, if not less, considering the audience it was pandering towards.

 

And probably the hardest, I would make all those that are able return fruit fields, construction sites and drive thrus that they have vacated because it is easier to sit at home and collect a check.

 

Huh?

 

In reference to the graphs. At what point did any of my posts say Bush/Regan did great things for our current economy?

What exactly is called out in the graphs? How do they indicate that 'Baggers' are wrong in the debate?

Did Cap & Balance fail because of politics or because it doesn't work?

What should we do? When do we 'Stop Kicking the Can?....Obama"?

At what point is it too high? When do we think it would be ok to start addressing the issue?

Millions of people run homes as businesses this way. Why is passion for the plan 'petulant'?

What would you do?

 

It's implied, as the 'bagger platform has been about FUDding the deficit and Obama's spending ever since he took office, though the actual numbers represented on the chart show otherwise.

 

Cap and Balance cannot work, as we should not hamstring our country in such a way that it can't operate. Had we Cap and Balance in place as an amendment when, say, we wanted to enter WWII or Korea, they would be very short-lived excursions. Freedom isn't free, it costs a hefty ******' fee. That fee becomes a deficit...kind of like the three theaters we have going on currently.

 

No one is saying 'kick the can'--that's rhetoric 'baggers made up as a chant to prevent themselves from being exposed to rational thought by accident. This debt cannot be paid down instantly--it will take a number of years to pay this down, and anything towards paying it down should be considered a positive step.

 

Yet, that isn't good enough for the 'baggers--instead, they'd rather take the whole of government down if they don't get all of their demands met. That isn't compromise or cooperation--if the 'baggers were acting like this in a first grade class, they'd be sat in the corner for misbehaving, and the same thing should happen here. Taking a 'my way or the highway' approach is divisive and destructive. That doesn't benefit anyone, except for the 'baggers own ego.

 

As for the charts, they spell out the real contributing factors for the current issues: the Bush tax cuts and military spending. Frankly, were the tax cuts to expire, then there is no 'debt crisis', as manufactured by the 'baggers.

 

In short, baggers are more of a Manchurian Candidate than Obama ever was--at least Obama did something useful like take down Bin Laden. I have yet to see anything come from a 'bagger on Capital Hill other than intolerance, vitriol, and ignorance.

[gobiggergoredder]

I have yet to see anything come from a 'bagger on Capital Hill other than intolerance, vitriol, and ignorance.

 

 

You offered nothing, but that really isn't a surprise. Typical debate.

 

 

Regardless of whether anyone agrees with me or not, the hypocrisy of what you have written and your view of 'baggers' is interesting to say the least.

[VectorVictor]

I have yet to see anything come from a 'bagger on Capital Hill other than intolerance, vitriol, and ignorance.

 

 

You offered nothing, but that really isn't a surprise. Typical debate.

 

 

And yet, you managed to offer less than I supposedly did. I suppose that takes talent?

 

Derp

 

Derp

 

Derp

 

Herp

 

de

 

derp.

 

Plus, you or any of the other 'baggers have yet to offer a retort regarding what Carlfese posted? Why? Because it's dead on and it doesn't agree with the reality 'baggers created for themselves.

 

Frankly, 'baggers can go do what they want in their own little party. Just get the **** out of the GOP and quit forcing real Republicans to ride shotgun on your crazy train.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

I have yet to see anything come from a 'bagger on Capital Hill other than intolerance, vitriol, and ignorance.

 

 

You offered nothing, but that really isn't a surprise. Typical debate.

 

 

And yet, you managed to offer less than I supposedly did. I suppose that takes talent?

 

Derp

 

Derp

 

Derp

 

Herp

 

de

 

derp.

 

Plus, you or any of the other 'baggers have yet to offer a retort regarding what Carlfese posted? Why? Because it's dead on and it doesn't agree with the reality 'baggers created for themselves.

 

Frankly, 'baggers can go do what they want in their own little party. Just get the **** out of the GOP and quit forcing real Republicans to ride shotgun on your crazy train.

 

matthew, that first article makes me laugh. "There is no such thing as the right to be offended." And yeah, they're right, but there is such a thing called Freedom of Religion, and if one chooses to not have a religion, then they shouldn't have to deal with people forcing religion upon them.

 

BTW, my whole comment about the teabaggers being called teabaggers was random on purpose. If I cared to make enough of a debate, I would. Point is, we could argue this for days, months, and years, and NOTHING will change because of it. Both parties will continue to point fingers, while America suffers as a result. But I find a lot more finger pointing being done by the GOP more so than the Liberals pointing fingers at the GOP. The GOP wants to put this all on Obama, they must really think that the common American voter is dumber than a box of rocks, because they already have the millionaires bought off. Too bad it isn't working.

 

Back in November I thought that with Republicans controlling a part of government we might finally have some moderation, but turns out I was wrong all that it has gotten us is manipulation, name-calling, and finger pointing.

[VectorVictor]

 

Back in November I thought that with Republicans controlling a part of government we might finally have some moderation, but turns out I was wrong all that it has gotten us is manipulation, name-calling, and finger pointing.

 

And that's where I'll stop you, because in my view, the 'baggers aren't true or real Republicans--they're extremists trying to use existing GOP infrastructure to get a quick and easy foothold in politics. We had real Republicans actually work with Democrats and propose both deeper cuts AND the closure of tax loopholes. The later part is why the 'baggers derped all over the compromise, and why we get what we had here last week, which is the way the 'bagger wants it. Well, he gets it.

 

And yes, I'm a moderate Republican--but that's because most Republicans (hell, most Nebraskans, for that matter) are moderates. I suppose it comes from having a non-partisan Unicameral and voting for left-leaning Republicans and right-leaning Democrats for representatives.

[74Hunter]

First, all of these charts and the rest of the propaganda is nothing more than a big freaking joke. The problem is quite simply that we spend way too much money, both parties. We can't afford to keep spending like drunken sailors in a whore house. I guess I need to remind everyone that this is OUR money, not the governments. Tax cuts didn't cause this, a bunch of corrupt disgusting indivuals who are bought and paid by special interests and an insatiable appetite for power is what got us here.

 

As for the incorrect assumption that republicans have migrated too far right, whomever said that is full of beans. Republicans have been forced to the center, hence the formation of the tea party. Anytime a republican spoke of any sort of meaningful cut to an entitlement, they were branded as a racist, sexist, anti-elderly/poor/child hate monger hell bent on killing the world.

 

Face it, the republicans and democrats are equally corrupt and equally to blame. I'm tired of the finger pointing and name calling, I'm ready for real results, I'm ready to take our country back.

[carlfense]

First, all of these charts and the rest of the propaganda is nothing more than a big freaking joke. The problem is quite simply that we spend way too much money, both parties. We can't afford to keep spending like drunken sailors in a whore house. I guess I need to remind everyone that this is OUR money, not the governments. Tax cuts didn't cause this, a bunch of corrupt disgusting indivuals who are bought and paid by special interests and an insatiable appetite for power is what got us here.

 

As for the incorrect assumption that republicans have migrated too far right, whomever said that is full of beans. Republicans have been forced to the center, hence the formation of the tea party. Anytime a republican spoke of any sort of meaningful cut to an entitlement, they were branded as a racist, sexist, anti-elderly/poor/child hate monger hell bent on killing the world.

 

Face it, the republicans and democrats are equally corrupt and equally to blame. I'm tired of the finger pointing and name calling, I'm ready for real results, I'm ready to take our country back.

Regarding the bold . . . you do know how addition and subtraction work, right?

 

If we are talking deficit/debt, then cutting taxes to the lowest percentage of the GDP since 1950 . . . without a corresponding spending decrease . . . is an ENORMOUS contributor to the deficit. Yes. You read that right. Tax receipts in the US are the lowest they have been since 1950. Doesn't exactly jive with the 'bagger line about oppressive taxation does it?

 

The GOP has ABSOLUTELY moved to the right, and not the center. Look at the ridiculous number of things that the GOP was for back in the 90s . . . that they now decry as "socialist." The two obvious examples are global warming and an individual mandate. Hell, as we've discussed here before, REAGAN himself would be too centrist to be elected in the modern GOP.

[74Hunter]

First, all of these charts and the rest of the propaganda is nothing more than a big freaking joke. The problem is quite simply that we spend way too much money, both parties. We can't afford to keep spending like drunken sailors in a whore house. I guess I need to remind everyone that this is OUR money, not the governments. Tax cuts didn't cause this, a bunch of corrupt disgusting indivuals who are bought and paid by special interests and an insatiable appetite for power is what got us here.

 

As for the incorrect assumption that republicans have migrated too far right, whomever said that is full of beans. Republicans have been forced to the center, hence the formation of the tea party. Anytime a republican spoke of any sort of meaningful cut to an entitlement, they were branded as a racist, sexist, anti-elderly/poor/child hate monger hell bent on killing the world.

 

Face it, the republicans and democrats are equally corrupt and equally to blame. I'm tired of the finger pointing and name calling, I'm ready for real results, I'm ready to take our country back.

Regarding the bold . . . you do know how addition and subtraction work, right?

 

If we are talking deficit/debt, then cutting taxes to the lowest percentage of the GDP since 1950 . . . without a corresponding spending decrease . . . is an ENORMOUS contributor to the deficit. Yes. You read that right. Tax receipts in the US are the lowest they have been since 1950. Doesn't exactly jive with the 'bagger line about oppressive taxation does it?

 

The GOP has ABSOLUTELY moved to the right, and not the center. Look at the ridiculous number of things that the GOP was for back in the 90s . . . that they now decry as "socialist." The two obvious examples are global warming and an individual mandate. Hell, as we've discussed here before, REAGAN himself would be too centrist to be elected in the modern GOP.

There's no reason to be smartassed, oh wait I forgot who I'm talking to. Your statement about addition/subtraction is made under the warped assumption that 1) we are not overspending and 2) that some how the money we make as citizens is not our own and that our government generously allows us to keep what meager pittance they see fit.

 

I guess I'm not real clear on what you are meaning by bringing up global warming and a personal mandate, but, again, if the republicans really are moving father right, why would many (whom I would say are far right) feel the need to move even father to the right with the tea party? I would say on the contrary, the majority of the left has moved so far left, what once was middle of the road now looks far right wing. If you listen to some of what JFK said years ago, you would swear that it came straight from the mouth of Limbaugh or Glen Beck.

 

Edit....the mainstream republicans really don't stand for anything anymore, or at the very least, they don't display the beliefs of republicans from even just twenty years ago.

[dizzturbedNUfan]

No point in getting mad at each other.................The riots will start soon enough.

[carlfense]

First, all of these charts and the rest of the propaganda is nothing more than a big freaking joke. The problem is quite simply that we spend way too much money, both parties. We can't afford to keep spending like drunken sailors in a whore house. I guess I need to remind everyone that this is OUR money, not the governments. Tax cuts didn't cause this, a bunch of corrupt disgusting indivuals who are bought and paid by special interests and an insatiable appetite for power is what got us here.

 

As for the incorrect assumption that republicans have migrated too far right, whomever said that is full of beans. Republicans have been forced to the center, hence the formation of the tea party. Anytime a republican spoke of any sort of meaningful cut to an entitlement, they were branded as a racist, sexist, anti-elderly/poor/child hate monger hell bent on killing the world.

 

Face it, the republicans and democrats are equally corrupt and equally to blame. I'm tired of the finger pointing and name calling, I'm ready for real results, I'm ready to take our country back.

Regarding the bold . . . you do know how addition and subtraction work, right?

 

If we are talking deficit/debt, then cutting taxes to the lowest percentage of the GDP since 1950 . . . without a corresponding spending decrease . . . is an ENORMOUS contributor to the deficit. Yes. You read that right. Tax receipts in the US are the lowest they have been since 1950. Doesn't exactly jive with the 'bagger line about oppressive taxation does it?

 

The GOP has ABSOLUTELY moved to the right, and not the center. Look at the ridiculous number of things that the GOP was for back in the 90s . . . that they now decry as "socialist." The two obvious examples are global warming and an individual mandate. Hell, as we've discussed here before, REAGAN himself would be too centrist to be elected in the modern GOP.

I guess I'm not real clear on what you are meaning by bringing up global warming and a personal mandate, but, again, if the republicans really are moving father right, why would many (whom I would say are far right) feel the need to move even father to the right with the tea party? I would say on the contrary, the majority of the left has moved so far left, what once was middle of the road now looks far right wing. If you listen to some of what JFK said years ago, you would swear that it came straight from the mouth of Limbaugh or Glen Beck.

90s Republicans believed in global warming.

90s Republicans wrote a health care plan that focused on an individual mandate.

Now the GOP says those are "socialist." Could you explain how that is "the GOP moving to the left?"

 

Could you give me an example of the things JFK said that sound like Limbaugh or Beck?

 

The 'baggers keep moving right because . . . well . . . they are a little historically and factually challenged. To put it mildly. To put it a bit more accurately, they are a prominent example of our Post-Truth Era.

 

There's no reason to be smartassed, oh wait I forgot who I'm talking to. Your statement about addition/subtraction is made under the warped assumption that 1) we are not overspending and 2) that some how the money we make as citizens is not our own and that our government generously allows us to keep what meager pittance they see fit.

Irrelevant. To put it in household terms (as the 'baggers love to do) if you are bringing $500 in and spending $500 you're not running a deficit. If you keep spending that $500 and reduce your income to $250 . . . you're suddenly running a deficit of $250. It's not because of increased spending . . . it's because of decreased revenue. The effect is the same. A deficit. It has nothing to do with your "government generously allowing us to keep what meager pittance they see fit." Ideological arguments fare poorly in the real world.

 

Edit....the mainstream republicans really don't stand for anything anymore, or at the very least, they don't display the beliefs of republicans from even just twenty years ago.

 

Republicans of 20 years ago are largely the Democrats of today. Reagan, among others, would be unelectable in the modern day GOP.

 

The way I see it, the GOP will push this to an extreme until the public lashes back against it and they will then drift back towards the mainstream.

[gobiggergoredder]

 

90s Republicans believed in global warming.

90s Republicans wrote a health care plan that focused on an individual mandate.

Now the GOP says those are "socialist." Could you explain how that is "the GOP moving to the left?"

 

Could you give me an example of the things JFK said that sound like Limbaugh or Beck?

 

The 'baggers keep moving right because . . . well . . . they are a little historically and factually challenged. To put it mildly. To put it a bit more accurately, they are a prominent example of our Post-Truth Era.

 

Republicans of 20 years ago are largely the Democrats of today. Reagan, among others, would be unelectable in the modern day GOP.

 

The way I see it, the GOP will push this to an extreme until the public lashes back against it and they will then drift back towards the mainstream.

 

 

What's mainstream? No wonder some feel like they are not represented.

gallup & global warming

gallup & health care responsibility

[carlfense]

 

90s Republicans believed in global warming.

90s Republicans wrote a health care plan that focused on an individual mandate.

Now the GOP says those are "socialist." Could you explain how that is "the GOP moving to the left?"

 

Could you give me an example of the things JFK said that sound like Limbaugh or Beck?

 

The 'baggers keep moving right because . . . well . . . they are a little historically and factually challenged. To put it mildly. To put it a bit more accurately, they are a prominent example of our Post-Truth Era.

 

Republicans of 20 years ago are largely the Democrats of today. Reagan, among others, would be unelectable in the modern day GOP.

 

The way I see it, the GOP will push this to an extreme until the public lashes back against it and they will then drift back towards the mainstream.

 

 

What's mainstream? No wonder some feel like they are not represented.

gallup & global warming

gallup & health care responsibility

Not sure how this is relevant. I wasn't arguing for or against them. I was just pointing out that the GOP was for them BEFORE they were against them.

[gobiggergoredder]

More 'bagger' info. They are so out of touch......with who???

 

Gallup - Cut Spending

Gallup - Cut more....who knew

[74Hunter]

90s Republicans believed in global warming.

90s Republicans wrote a health care plan that focused on an individual mandate.

Now the GOP says those are "socialist." Could you explain how that is "the GOP moving to the left?"

I guess I don't recall the Republicans ever being big supporters of global warming. They may have believed it until further research proved global warming to be inconclusive.

 

As for the individual mandate, from what I gather, the individual health insurance mandate was designed by Republicans as an alternative to President Bill Clinton’s health care reform plan in the 1990s. It was specifically seen as a way to prevent a government takeover of health care, which is not exactly the same thing as Obamacare. So again, you are fudging the truth and comparing apples to oranges.

 

Even if it were, I didn't realize that is was some sort of sin to recognize that something you once stood for was not inline with your core values, and to change your stance on said issue.

 

Could you give me an example of the things JFK said that sound like Limbaugh or Beck?

 

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AS08q5oYz0SFUZg9uOi4iw.aspx

 

"There has also been a change--a slippage--in our intellectual and moral strength. Seven lean years of drouth and famine have withered a field of ideas. Blight has descended on our regulatory agencies--and a dry rot, beginning in Washington, is seeping into every corner of America--in the payola mentality, the expense account way of life, the confusion between what is legal and what is right. Too many Americans have lost their way, their will and their sense of historic purpose."

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the speech I was looking for. I skimmed a couple of his speeches for a few minutes, but I have other more pressing obligations and responsibilities to attend to. Since you have time, you can check here:

 

http://www.jfklibrary.org/JFK/Historic-Speeches.aspx.

 

The 'baggers keep moving right because . . . well . . . they are a little historically and factually challenged. To put it mildly. To put it a bit more accurately, they are a prominent example of our Post-Truth Era.

That is your opinion. Great, but you are anything but unbiased. And it still doesn't support your claim that the Republican Party as a whole is moving towards the right. Common sense should tell you that if the entire party is moving right, there would be no need for a substantial portion of their base to feel disenfranchised and move even farther right. The reason for the tea party movement is because Republicans lost touch with their voting block, and lost touch with their supposed conservative core values. A fact that pretty much any tea partier will tell you.

 

Also, please explain how tea partiers are historically and factually challenged, and please explain your disdain for a "grassroots" organization that simply is for lower taxation and fiscal responsibility in the government.

 

Irrelevant. To put it in household terms (as the 'baggers love to do) if you are bringing $500 in and spending $500 you're not running a deficit. If you keep spending that $500 and reduce your income to $250 . . . you're suddenly running a deficit of $250. It's not because of increased spending . . . it's because of decreased revenue. The effect is the same. A deficit. It has nothing to do with your "government generously allowing us to keep what meager pittance they see fit." Ideological arguments fare poorly in the real world.

 

Totally relevant. What you are failing to grasp is that it is not the responsibility of the government to be a money making entity, especially when it is off the backs of taxpayers. I'm not sure how things work in your life, but in the real world, if you went from making and spending $500 to making $250, you had better damn well not keep spending $500. In my world, money doesn't grow on trees, nor can I print up a whole bunch of it to pay for things that I can't afford. It's called being fiscally responsible. And you, of all people, talking about ideological arguments faring poorly is the epitome of hipocrisy.

 

Democrats of 20 years ago are largely the Republicans of today.

fify

 

Reagan, among others, would be unelectable in the modern day GOP.

Again, your biased opinion only. If he were unelectable, it would be because he leaned too far right for today's political climate.

 

The way I see it, the GOP will push this to an extreme until the public lashes back against it and they will then drift back towards the mainstream.

The GOP has no leg to stand on. They have lost their way, lost touch with their conservative roots. It is hardly the party of Lincoln anymore. The problem is, the public keeps wanting more and more, and we have too damn many elected officials who will roll over to the whims of those who will not do for themselves. They have no problem selling out to ensure that they will be re-elected (see the gutless, cowardly rino John Boehner).

[Blaze1up]

Olberman goes off, whoa.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDgLVPFE-Mk