Why would Israel attack Iran?

[walksalone]

and again, the elephant in the room is the illegal occupation. To blame the Palestinians for how they resist it is sort of like holding a guy down in the mud by a boot on his neck and then complain that he's pulling your leg hairs.

 

And the U.N. keeps passing resolutions (ballpark about 2 per year) dealing with Israel, not really accomplishing anything...

[Cactusboy]

 

 

If we support them, we pretty much piss off everyone in the middle east, and if we don't support them, that gives everyone that's pissed at them, the green light to take a run at them.

 

Stopping our support of their illegal actions doesn't mean we'd let others attack them. We can still see to it they are safe w/out activly supporting their actions.

 

That said, If you and your friends have a buddy that keeps provoking fights in bars and does so because he knows you guys have his back he'll keep provoking fights. If you tell him you're not going to have his back then he'll either have to stop or face the consequences of starting fights.

 

That's not even a fair analogy....you'd also have to had been supplying him w/ steroids and such as to where he could probably kick the crap out of anyone he provokes fighst w/. But you could stop giving him the roids and free gym membership if he didn't start behaving.

 

But bottom line is no one would allow any attack on Israel...it's just silly to suggest the world would let that happen. Besides they have nukes.

[walksalone]

Stopping our support of their illegal actions doesn't mean we'd let others attack them. We can still see to it they are safe w/out activly supporting their actions.

 

That said, If you and your friends have a buddy that keeps provoking fights in bars and does so because he knows you guys have his back he'll keep provoking fights. If you tell him you're not going to have his back then he'll either have to stop or face the consequences of starting fights.

 

That's not even a fair analogy....you'd also have to had been supplying him w/ steroids and such as to where he could probably kick the crap out of anyone he provokes fighst w/. But you could stop giving him the roids and free gym membership if he didn't start behaving.

 

But bottom line is no one would allow any attack on Israel...it's just silly to suggest the world would let that happen. Besides they have nukes.

 

then, the non defacto support of them will just go on, even if the other kids decide to step up and take a poke at the kid in the yamaka...

[knapplc]

Except that Hamas is notorious for making ceasefire deals with Israel and then breaking them once the Israelis let their guard down. Believing that Hamas would adhere to a 10-year truce is a nice utopian view, but nobody anywhere trusts that.

 

This conflict dates back to the Balfour Declaration (and of course before that, but we're talking the modern-day issue, not ancient issues) and the issue of dividing the Ottoman Turkish empire between various parties and ethnicities, including the Arabs and the Jews. The territories created by the British and the UN just after WWII were in jeopardy from the instant of their inception, mostly because neither side would compromise. Both hated the borders, and both wanted the whole without sharing. This made the 1948 war inevitable, from which the modern state of Israel was carved.

 

Israel never stopped conspiring against her neighbors from that day, but then again, her neighbors never stopped conspiring against her, either. Both sides had spies, secret police, assassinations, etc. Neither sides' hands are clean, and neither is "more wrong" than the other.

[Cactusboy]

and again, the elephant in the room is the illegal occupation. To blame the Palestinians for how they resist it is sort of like holding a guy down in the mud by a boot on his neck and then complain that he's pulling your leg hairs.

 

And the U.N. keeps passing resolutions (ballpark about 2 per year) dealing with Israel, not really accomplishing anything...

 

the last from the UN

 

1991

• December 16: UN General Assembly Resolution 4686: annulled Res. 3379
  

the last 2 from the security councel

1. Resolution 1701 (11 August 2006) called for the full cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah.
   
2. Resolution 1860 (9 January 2009) called for the full cessation of war between Israel and Hamas.
   

 

From same link

 

 

The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.^[3]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

 

 

Saddam not following resolutions was a big reason why we invaded Iraq. Israel has been doing the same thing for decades and we do nothing. The reason the resolutions don't do anything is because the US wants it that way.

[Cactusboy]

Virtually all indefensible

 

 

 

U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

 

(1972-2011)

 

 

 

http://www.jewishvir...N/usvetoes.html

[walksalone]

and again, the elephant in the room is the illegal occupation. To blame the Palestinians for how they resist it is sort of like holding a guy down in the mud by a boot on his neck and then complain that he's pulling your leg hairs.

 

And the U.N. keeps passing resolutions (ballpark about 2 per year) dealing with Israel, not really accomplishing anything...

 

the last from the UN

 

1991

• December 16: UN General Assembly Resolution 4686: annulled Res. 3379
  

the last 2 from the security councel

 

1. Resolution 1701 (11 August 2006) called for the full cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah.
   
2. Resolution 1860 (9 January 2009) called for the full cessation of war between Israel and Hamas.
   

 

From same link

 

 

The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.^[3]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....ncerning_Israel

 

 

Saddam not following resolutions was a big reason why we invaded Iraq. Israel has been doing the same thing for decades and we do nothing. The reason the resolutions don't do anything is because the US wants it that way.

 

I just don't have much faith in the U.N. Sierra Leone being the case in point.

[walksalone]

Virtually all indefensible

 

 

 

U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

 

(1972-2011)

 

 

 

http://www.jewishvir...N/usvetoes.html

 

its amusing the same cast of characters abstaining from voting...

[Cactusboy]

Except that Hamas is notorious for making ceasefire deals with Israel and then breaking them once the Israelis let their guard down. Believing that Hamas would adhere to a 10-year truce is a nice utopian view, but nobody anywhere trusts that.

 

This conflict dates back to the Balfour Declaration (and of course before that, but we're talking the modern-day issue, not ancient issues) and the issue of dividing the Ottoman Turkish empire between various parties and ethnicities, including the Arabs and the Jews. The territories created by the British and the UN just after WWII were in jeopardy from the instant of their inception, mostly because neither side would compromise. Both hated the borders, and both wanted the whole without sharing. This made the 1948 war inevitable, from which the modern state of Israel was carved.

 

Israel never stopped conspiring against her neighbors from that day, but then again, her neighbors never stopped conspiring against her, either. Both sides had spies, secret police, assassinations, etc. Neither sides' hands are clean, and neither is "more wrong" than the other.

 

 

Can you give an example of Hamas breaking a cease fire? Hamas obeyed the last cease fire and wanted to renew. If Israel refuses they are rejectionists of peace. No crystal balls or magic 8 ball predictions allowed.

 

as soon at Israel got their state in 1948 they marched out to drive our and massacre the people living in the land. Who by the way were to be allowed to stay and live there. That's when tens if not hundredes of thousands fled and when neighboring arab armies arrived to fight.

 

AGAIN..it hinges on the land. Yes they both wanted it...but Israel was GIVEN their split. They had to TAKE land from the people there to do this. For Israel to demand/want more is over the top and for them to STILL not simply accept what was given to them shows where the vast majority of the blame goes.

[Cactusboy]

Virtually all indefensible

 

 

 

U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

 

(1972-2011)

 

 

 

http://www.jewishvir...N/usvetoes.html

 

its amusing the same cast of characters abstaining from voting...

 

 

We used to protect South Africa w/ vetos too..w/ the same type of lopsides voting results.

[walksalone]

 

We used to protect South Africa w/ vetos too..w/ the same type of lopsides voting results.

 

Don't know how alone I am on this, but all this crap just seems that it'll come back and bite us in the ass later on....

[knapplc]

Just google "hamas breaks truce" and you'll find about a hundred examples. Of course you can tie those instances to Israeli activity, which can in turn be tied to Arab activity. It's a never-ending mishmash of retaliation.

 

And you can go back to 1947 and find instances of Arab terrorism killing Jews in marketplaces, and you can go back beyond that to find Israeli atrocities.

 

 

OF COURSE it hinges on land. You shoe-horned an entire country into a space where it didn't exist previously. But to state that Israel is "the aggressor" simply based on land is missing the point, and giving an unnecessarily free pass to the Arabs. You keep saying, Cactus, that Israel is to blame, and citing Israeli wrongs. The truth is that both are in the wrong - and both are in the right.

[Cactusboy]

 

We used to protect South Africa w/ vetos too..w/ the same type of lopsides voting results.

 

Don't know how alone I am on this, but all this crap just seems that it'll come back and bite us in the ass later on....

 

It was one of the 3 stated reasons for 9/11.

[Cactusboy]

Just google "hamas breaks truce" and you'll find about a hundred examples. Of course you can tie those instances to Israeli activity, which can in turn be tied to Arab activity. It's a never-ending mishmash of retaliation.

 

And you can go back to 1947 and find instances of Arab terrorism killing Jews in marketplaces, and you can go back beyond that to find Israeli atrocities.

 

 

OF COURSE it hinges on land. You shoe-horned an entire country into a space where it didn't exist previously. But to state that Israel is "the aggressor" simply based on land is missing the point, and giving an unnecessarily free pass to the Arabs. You keep saying, Cactus, that Israel is to blame, and citing Israeli wrongs. The truth is that both are in the wrong - and both are in the right.

 

You're oversimplying/white washing it and that is dangerous as it allows it to continue to happen. People just throw up their hands and say "it will never end...they both are to blame" They see it as hopeless and give up or jsut don't care. It's important to dig into this and see exactly what the facts are and hold people accountable where needed. It's far too important of an issue to be a defeatist on.

 

as far as saying Hamas routinely breaks truces seems to be just an assumption of yours. It's a fair assumption because that's how our media makes it out to be, but it's not true. I'm sure as the thread contues examples of who breaks truces will be brought up.

 

 

 

FTR - just saw on the news that 74% of Americans are opposed to Israel attacking Iran to stop their nuke program.

[knapplc]

 

as far as saying Hamas routinely breaks truces seems to be just an assumption of yours.

 

Ummm..... nope. Pretty much an established fact.