Why would Israel attack Iran?

[carlfense]

I see no substantial difference to Israel whether he said "wipe off the map" or "this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". Sure one seems a little more inflammatory but, if you're Israel, it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

 

THere is a huge difference. Wipe off face of the map means kill all the civilians...regime change means new leadership. and it doesn't even mean through death. It's a regime that is responsible for an very brutal illegal occupation. We are talking about what has a legit potential of the start of the biggest war since WWII. I think it's fair to say we need to act a little more like Kennedy during the Cuban MIsssle Crisis and less like Yosemite Sam after a couple of cool ones.

 

NOW...since you lectured me on above before reading my replies...or even attempting to have a legit discussion..it's my turn to lecture you.

 

 

Actually I'll keep it short and to the point. THis is the 2nd time in the recent past your knee jerkish responses to me have ended backfiring on you. Let's just all try to use a little patience and at least attempt to have productive discussions before resorting to this.

 

NOW...even if there is just a small difference...WHY do you think you never hear about this difference in the media? Why don't they he wants regime change in Israel? It's odd, huh? Again...start to do some objective, honest research on this subject and you'll have quite a few WTF moments.

 

So it doesn't look like I'm setting you up for another knee jerk response...the reason is the Israel lobby and the great influence they have on our politicians and media. The lobby isn't only Jews either. A large part of it is the religious right...people like John Hagee and his followers.

Nah. The people who wish that Pres. Bush or Pres. Obama's "regime would vanish from the face of the earth" are advocating the killing of all US citizens.

 

 

Elaborate please? Who exactly...Iran? AQ and OBL, yes they believe in collective punishment that results in death...much like Israel does w/ Palestinians(Fact).

Sorry. I was being sarcastic and it didn't translate well. I agree that there is a huge difference.

[Cactusboy]

Pat Tillman was a great great man. Not just for walking away from millions in the NFL to serve in our military to go after AQ/OBL, but from how he lived his life in general. Last year I read the book his mom wrote about him which is what "The Tillman Story" doc was based off of. I also know people that knew him and they also say he was great. He was also a very well read man and loved to learn and debate and he always stood up for the little guy or those w/ no voice.

 

I'm sure many doubt much of what I've posted here, but maybe it will give it a bit more credibilty or maybe it'll get one of you to open your mind a bit on the subject after reading this excerpt:

 

“That’s My Hero”

“Everywhere I look in this house, I’m staggered by memories. … I stay in the house to look at Pat’s books on the shelves and appreciate his special keepsakes displayed in the dining room hutch. As I’m looking at the mementos, I find a small newspaper clipping I’ve seen before.

The article is about Rachel Corr

ie,

the 23-year-old peace activist from Olympia, Washington, who was

crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer on March 16,

2003, trying to protect the home of a Palestinian doctor and his family.

”“I remember picking up the article from the same spot more than a year ago [2003] and asking Pat, “Who’sthis?”

“That’s my

hero,”

Pat said. “She was a

stud; she had

a lot of

guts.”

I read the article with tears in my eyes then; now, I quietly cry.”

- - Mary Tillman “Boots on the Ground by Dusk” (2008)

 

 

 

 

Imagine the chaos that would have taken place had he returned and ran for the US Senate...

[Sub-Husker]

Nah. The people who wish that Pres. Bush or Pres. Obama's "regime would vanish from the face of the earth" are advocating the killing of all US citizens.

 

Many of those people have suffered through regime changes brought on by the United States.

 

We the People of the USA voted for our leaders who brought about their plight, why should we be immune to their anger?

 

And NO... regime change does not mean the killing of ALL citizens.

 

It would be less than a decimation, accompanied by a "shock and awe" attack on our infrastructure.

[JJ Husker]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

[carlfense]

Nah. The people who wish that Pres. Bush or Pres. Obama's "regime would vanish from the face of the earth" are advocating the killing of all US citizens.

 

Many of those people have suffered through regime changes brought on by the United States.

 

We the People of the USA voted for our leaders who brought about their plight, why should we be immune to their anger?

 

And NO... regime change does not mean the killing of ALL citizens.

 

It would be less than a decimation, accompanied by a "shock and awe" attack on our infrastructure.

I agree that regime change doesn't mean the killing of all citizens. That was the point of my sarcastic comment.

 

I regret saying it because it has apparently been misinterpreted by all.

[walksalone]

I get a kick out of the fact that everyone seems to forget, nobody in this neck of the woods has gotten along in over two millenia.

 

Please speak for yourself.

 

Shall we go into the details of how a non-homogenous tribal society can have its various tribes working against each other, especially when external money and arms are introduced?

 

Non-homongenous tribal society? Is that the 25 cent way of saying "indians"?

 

Well, until white folks got here, most native american tribes, didn't have a word for money. That all changed when ya'll got here. There was a system of barter, the men fished, hunted, and made war, while the women stayed home and worked and took care of the children, there weren't any taxes, plenty of food to be had, but only the white man would think he could improve on that.

 

We're the Lakota peaceful, hell no. We were always having to worry about the Pawnee, amongst other tribes trying to take away our resources.

 

If you're going to try to get all Clausewitz, by saying war is philosophical, then when you have to make war on those that threaten the ability to survive, thats not philosophical, it's survival.

[JJ Husker]

If it helps, I knew you were being sarcastic carl.

[Cactusboy]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

 

Well the president of Iran has no power to decide on any military moves. Another odd and very important fact, so odd it's never mentioned in the media...

 

Thanks for the civil reply. This all hinges on Israel wanting to expand and have the Palestinians territories that they currenly illegally occupy. They wanted the land to be a part of their state from the beginning, they didn't want to agree to the split of the land, but they had no choice, but they said it was a first step to one day having it all. The thing is it already belonged/s to the arabs there, but they don't care because the bible says it's theirs... Iran backs the Palestianiansa and Hezbulah(sp), who are Palestian refugees never allowed to return after war(also illegal to prevent from happening) So that is why Israel wants an attack on Iran. They don't want them interferring w/ their illegal occupation and the stealing of this land.

 

People really need to know the facts on this subject, because it's a great injustice in the world and many people have been killed over it and many more are every day. Also billions and billions are spent on protecting this occupation.

 

Keep in mind that at one time Aparteid South Africa was a ally of the US and we protected them and their injustices. Now we all know/admit it was a terrible thing and Nelson Mandela went from an official terroist to a hero. People that lived through the SA apartheid say what is happening to the Palestinians is worse.

 

We need to stop blindly supporting Israel and make sure they and every other country follows international laws. No more or less should be expected of them than we expect from any other country.

[HSKR]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

 

Well the president of Iran has no power to decide on any military moves. Another odd and very important fact, so odd it's never mentioned in the media...

 

Thanks for the civil reply. This all hinges on Israel wanting to expand and have the Palestinians territories that they currenly illegally occupy. They wanted the land to be a part of their state from the beginning, they didn't want to agree to the split of the land, but they had no choice, but they said it was a first step to one day having it all. The thing is it already belonged/s to the arabs there, but they don't care because the bible says it's theirs... Iran backs the Palestianiansa and Hezbulah(sp), who are Palestian refugees never allowed to return after war(also illegal to prevent from happening) So that is why Israel wants an attack on Iran. They don't want them interferring w/ their illegal occupation and the stealing of this land.

 

People really need to know the facts on this subject, but it's a great injustice in the world and many people have been killed over it and many more are every day. Also billions and billions are spent on protecting this occupation.

 

Keep in mine at one time Aparteid South Africa was a ally of the US and we protected them and their injustices. Now we all know/admit it was a terrible thing and Nelson Mandela went from an official terroist to a hero. People that lived through the SA apartheid say what is happening to the Palestinians is worse.

 

We need to stop blindly supporting Israel and make sure they and every other country follows international laws. No more or less should be expected of them than we expect from any other country.

 

Other then the time it happened, please explain to the difference between Israel-Palestinians and the United States-Native Americans? I really see no difference.

[Cactusboy]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

 

Well the president of Iran has no power to decide on any military moves. Another odd and very important fact, so odd it's never mentioned in the media...

 

Thanks for the civil reply. This all hinges on Israel wanting to expand and have the Palestinians territories that they currenly illegally occupy. They wanted the land to be a part of their state from the beginning, they didn't want to agree to the split of the land, but they had no choice, but they said it was a first step to one day having it all. The thing is it already belonged/s to the arabs there, but they don't care because the bible says it's theirs... Iran backs the Palestianiansa and Hezbulah(sp), who are Palestian refugees never allowed to return after war(also illegal to prevent from happening) So that is why Israel wants an attack on Iran. They don't want them interferring w/ their illegal occupation and the stealing of this land.

 

People really need to know the facts on this subject, but it's a great injustice in the world and many people have been killed over it and many more are every day. Also billions and billions are spent on protecting this occupation.

 

Keep in mine at one time Aparteid South Africa was a ally of the US and we protected them and their injustices. Now we all know/admit it was a terrible thing and Nelson Mandela went from an official terroist to a hero. People that lived through the SA apartheid say what is happening to the Palestinians is worse.

 

We need to stop blindly supporting Israel and make sure they and every other country follows international laws. No more or less should be expected of them than we expect from any other country.

 

Other then the time it happened, please explain to the difference between Israel-Palestinians and the United States-Native Americans? I really see no difference.

 

US got and kept the land on their own.

 

That was simply to answer your question...however, when it happened is very important though. After WWII there were international laws created in order to keep order in the world and prevent a WWIII. So it's no longer legal to take land and move your population onto it. We evolve as a people/world. There was a time when rape and slavery weren't illegal. If Israel gets a pass on taking land...who gets a pass on rape and slavery?

[HSKR]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

 

Well the president of Iran has no power to decide on any military moves. Another odd and very important fact, so odd it's never mentioned in the media...

 

Thanks for the civil reply. This all hinges on Israel wanting to expand and have the Palestinians territories that they currenly illegally occupy. They wanted the land to be a part of their state from the beginning, they didn't want to agree to the split of the land, but they had no choice, but they said it was a first step to one day having it all. The thing is it already belonged/s to the arabs there, but they don't care because the bible says it's theirs... Iran backs the Palestianiansa and Hezbulah(sp), who are Palestian refugees never allowed to return after war(also illegal to prevent from happening) So that is why Israel wants an attack on Iran. They don't want them interferring w/ their illegal occupation and the stealing of this land.

 

People really need to know the facts on this subject, but it's a great injustice in the world and many people have been killed over it and many more are every day. Also billions and billions are spent on protecting this occupation.

 

Keep in mine at one time Aparteid South Africa was a ally of the US and we protected them and their injustices. Now we all know/admit it was a terrible thing and Nelson Mandela went from an official terroist to a hero. People that lived through the SA apartheid say what is happening to the Palestinians is worse.

 

We need to stop blindly supporting Israel and make sure they and every other country follows international laws. No more or less should be expected of them than we expect from any other country.

 

Other then the time it happened, please explain to the difference between Israel-Palestinians and the United States-Native Americans? I really see no difference.

 

US got and kept the land on their own.

 

That was simply to answer your question...however, when it happened is very important though. After WWII there were international laws created in order to keep order in the world and prevent a WWIII. So it's no longer legal to take land and move your population onto it. We evolve as a people/world. There was a time when rape and slavery weren't illegal. If Israel gets a pass on taking land...who gets a pass on rape and slavery?

 

I'm not sure why you are throwing rape and slavery in there but that isn't helping the argument at all. I agree, we do evolve and if Israel was starting today what it started to do in the 40's, 50's and 60's, I don't think it would ever fly. I guess that is what I am trying to get at. At what point, what magical number does Israel need to be maintained as a nation that the world says "OK, you can keep it"? I'm not saying what is happening in Israel is right but there are now generations of people that have been born and raised there and know no other place as their home. So is it right to remove them even if they have lived there for their entire life? I'm pretty sure this is what the new settlement strategy is for Israel. Build the places, move in and never leave and eventually it becomes theirs without question. Also, even though it is admirable, I think you have way too much faith in the power of what international law says and how countries actually follow it, including our own.

[Sub-Husker]

I get a kick out of the fact that everyone seems to forget, nobody in this neck of the woods has gotten along in over two millenia.

 

Please speak for yourself.

 

Shall we go into the details of how a non-homogenous tribal society can have its various tribes working against each other, especially when external money and arms are introduced?

 

Non-homongenous tribal society? Is that the 25 cent way of saying "indians"?

 

Well, until white folks got here, most native american tribes, didn't have a word for money. That all changed when ya'll got here. There was a system of barter, the men fished, hunted, and made war, while the women stayed home and worked and took care of the children, there weren't any taxes, plenty of food to be had, but only the white man would think he could improve on that.

 

We're the Lakota peaceful, hell no. We were always having to worry about the Pawnee, amongst other tribes trying to take away our resources.

 

If you're going to try to get all Clausewitz, by saying war is philosophical, then when you have to make war on those that threaten the ability to survive, thats not philosophical, it's survival.

 

When you mentioned that the people of the Mideast hadn't gotten along with each other for over two millenia, I was going to post about the nature of tribal society. As I thought more about how I was going to write my post and its intended audience, I wrote it in a way that would portray it in a familiar fashion.

 

No slight on Native Americans was intended, I am familiar with some of their traditions.

[Sub-Husker]

Other then the time it happened, please explain to the difference between Israel-Palestinians and the United States-Native Americans? I really see no difference.

 

Not much of a difference, both were travesties.

[husker_99]

and you think a democratically electected leader in any mideast country would go along w/ the illegal acts Israel is engaged in w/ regards to the Palestinians? If Israel wants peace it will have to start actingl like a peaceful neighbor. Putting a stop the breaking of UN Resolutions and war crimes would be a great start.

 

Surely you're not implying that Israel has no legal foundation for their treatment of Palestine/Palestinians, yes? Do you believe that Israel has zero reason to hold Palestine under their thumbs?

 

their occupation is 100% illegal...no ifs, ands, buts about it. They only get away w/ it because we have their back. This could get into a very long thread, but that's what it boils down to. An illegal occupation and the resistance of.

 

how so?

[Cactusboy]

You can interpret Ahmadinajads words however you wish. Maybe I have been presented overly slanted news on this issue and maybe I do not have the inclination to research it on my own but, my feeling is that whether he said "wipe off the earth" or "regime change", he really meant the same thing. And yes I understand the difference between the 2. I just don't happen to think the Iranian president sees much difference between them. I'm not advocating for or against any action but I am not going to tell the Israelies how they should go about protecting themselves. Simply look at a map of that area and you will quickly see that they would be in dire straits if they are not very proactive about their survival. They are tiny and surrounded by some of the most extreme elements on the planet. I think it is kind of naive, given the many years of history of this area, to assume that Iran or any of the other muslim countries there are to be trusted. They (Israel) sure may do things that don't help themselves much but I don't see where they have many other choices. It's an excrement sandwich and it always has been.

 

Well the president of Iran has no power to decide on any military moves. Another odd and very important fact, so odd it's never mentioned in the media...

 

Thanks for the civil reply. This all hinges on Israel wanting to expand and have the Palestinians territories that they currenly illegally occupy. They wanted the land to be a part of their state from the beginning, they didn't want to agree to the split of the land, but they had no choice, but they said it was a first step to one day having it all. The thing is it already belonged/s to the arabs there, but they don't care because the bible says it's theirs... Iran backs the Palestianiansa and Hezbulah(sp), who are Palestian refugees never allowed to return after war(also illegal to prevent from happening) So that is why Israel wants an attack on Iran. They don't want them interferring w/ their illegal occupation and the stealing of this land.

 

People really need to know the facts on this subject, but it's a great injustice in the world and many people have been killed over it and many more are every day. Also billions and billions are spent on protecting this occupation.

 

Keep in mine at one time Aparteid South Africa was a ally of the US and we protected them and their injustices. Now we all know/admit it was a terrible thing and Nelson Mandela went from an official terroist to a hero. People that lived through the SA apartheid say what is happening to the Palestinians is worse.

 

We need to stop blindly supporting Israel and make sure they and every other country follows international laws. No more or less should be expected of them than we expect from any other country.

 

Other then the time it happened, please explain to the difference between Israel-Palestinians and the United States-Native Americans? I really see no difference.

 

US got and kept the land on their own.

 

That was simply to answer your question...however, when it happened is very important though. After WWII there were international laws created in order to keep order in the world and prevent a WWIII. So it's no longer legal to take land and move your population onto it. We evolve as a people/world. There was a time when rape and slavery weren't illegal. If Israel gets a pass on taking land...who gets a pass on rape and slavery?

 

I'm not sure why you are throwing rape and slavery in there but that isn't helping the argument at all. I agree, we do evolve and if Israel was starting today what it started to do in the 40's, 50's and 60's, I don't think it would ever fly. I guess that is what I am trying to get at. At what point, what magical number does Israel need to be maintained as a nation that the world says "OK, you can keep it"? I'm not saying what is happening in Israel is right but there are now generations of people that have been born and raised there and know no other place as their home. So is it right to remove them even if they have lived there for their entire life? I'm pretty sure this is what the new settlement strategy is for Israel. Build the places, move in and never leave and eventually it becomes theirs without question. Also, even though it is admirable, I think you have way too much faith in the power of what international law says and how countries actually follow it, including our own.

 

 

Israel needs to be within the borders that were given to them when they were given their statehood. Yes they build settlements on the occupied land in hopes that it will all be too permanent to uproot. That is why they keep delaying peace talks...or never stop building even during peace talks. How can the arabs take them seriously if they won't even agree to stop building during peace talks?? Ok so we agree on what their strategy is.

 

Back to the borders. There will be some areas that will be too hard to give back...so it's been proposed many times and for a long time to have land swaps where it'll work and then some sort of other compensation for land lost, like paying for it or something.

 

International laws work when we want them to. We used them as an excuse to get rid of Saddam...we can use them to solve the Israel/Palestine thing too.