Obama found a way to lower oil

[Blackshirts007]

Efficient is the way, WAY wrong word to use.

 

Remember we are talking about the entire system here. Gasoline is a far more efficient method of energy storage than anything else that has been available.

 

I won't argue there is probably some truth to that, but if you look deeper there was some shady stuff going on there, like Chevron buying the controlling interest in the maker of the batteries.

 

Sure but there's no real indication (outside of the claims of Stanford Ovshinsky) that they did so to bury the technology rather than as an attempt to corner the market (which the lawsuit against Panasonic suggests).

 

But that doesn't factor in how far they have driven on electricity, and the farther you drive the worse the mileage becomes till it reaches that mark. For most people they will be driving primarily on electricity unless they travel more than 30-40 miles.

 

You're right and I agree. I'm really just pointing out that it is difficult to compare 'mileage' of hybrids to standards petrol fueled vehicles.

talk to Akita if you want to hear about conspiracies. Roswell is history and a real event. Not a conspiracy

[Blackshirts007]

....does anyone remember the Roswell incident in New Mexico, a ufo had crashed and had been spotted by numerous witnesses. pictures were taken and it was in the news, until the military and special tasks force came in and pulled it from every news station and paper corperation. They later said it was just a weather balloon and banned any public talk about it. i wonder how the people on the ranch who witnessed it live and found it first had to think about that? and i got a B+ in the class for those wondering....

 

Ahh I see, you're just a conspiracy nut in general.

 

Carry on.

 

Contemporary safety and crash standards are a huge issue in relation to fuel economy. Contemporary cars are much heavier because of them in comparison to 15 to 20 years ago. 40 MPG used to be no big deal with an old Honda Civic because it was small and light. Mass needs energy to move it down the road. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Remember that those early 90's Civics were using a different efficiency standard than the one in use today. The new measurements would drop them down 5-10 mpg (even with that they would still return better mileage than their modern contemporaries).

 

There are cars in the world that can meet the goal. The Tata Nano for example but much of that efficiency is due to light weight and as TheW0rld touched upon there is no way it would pass American safety standards.

 

When they did start making a come back in the 90's they were killed off by oil special interest groups, not the government.

They died off because the technology was not ready for mainstream use and the infrastructure was not in place to support them. GM (and everyone else) was losing money on the EVs, they were money pits that were not yet economically feasible to manufacture.

 

The Chevrolet Volt is a prime example, interior styling aside, the car is exactly what people are clamoring for and it meets your standards with 93mpg.

For less than 40 miles (on a warm day) after that it gets 30-35 mpg.

Talk to Akita if you want to hear about conspiracies. Roswell is history and a real event. Not a conspiracy

[ZRod]

Talk to Akita if you want to hear about conspiracies. Roswell is history and a real event. Not a conspiracy

Yes it is! What you said previously is the very definition of a conspiracy.

 

A conspiracy theory explains an event as being the result of an alleged plot by a covert group or organization or, more broadly, the idea that important political, social or economic events are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.

http://en.wikipedia....nspiracy_theory

[carlfense]

And thank you for pointing out that the current electric grid (which is responsible for charging these vehicles) is outdated and run predominately on fossil fuels. I try to not let it bother me when those Prius drivers look condescendingly at me as I fly by them in my Yukon XL.

Maybe they're looking condescendingly because the Prius was not plugged into the electrical grid prior to February of 2012?

 

 

 

 

 

Full disclosure: I drive a sports car. An older one . . . but definitely not a hybrid.

[Muck]

Your rates are climbing because the current electric grid is A) outdated and B) run predominately on fossil fuels.

 

Regarding your point B.

 

What non fossil fuel source do you think would bring rates down? Wind costs about twice as much per kWh & solar is around four times as expensive. The only sources that are actually cheaper (nuclear and hydro) are also on the greens big no-no list.

 

 

Yes it is! What you said previously is the very definition of a conspiracy.

 

 

Roswell is history and a real event. Not a conspiracy

The fact that a farmer found some debris on his farm in 1947 and handed it over to an AF Major who couldn't explain what it came from is history.

 

The vast wealth of mythology that has been generated by UFO conspiracists over the past 35 years surrounding it has little to no connection with the 'real event'.

 

Let's not forget that most of that mythology got it's start in a National Enquirer article.

[ZRod]

What non fossil fuel source do you think would bring rates down? Wind costs about twice as much per kWh & solar is around four times as expensive. The only sources that are actually cheaper (nuclear and hydro) are also on the greens big no-no list.

In the short term I don't think anything will bring rates down because we will be covering the cost of construction, and in the case of wind and solar waiting for technology to catch up and make it a more viable option. But since the majority of our power generation will have to be replaced in the not so distance future it doesn't seem too silly to invest in these alternatives, if anything they will at least lead to less long term pollution and better ideas. On the other hand we could just sit back and see how things work out for Germany in the next 20 years, but by then we will be 20 years further behind than we are now. Even Germany will use natural gas as a back up though.

 

On the nuclear side of things there are much safer alternatives that don't get any press or attention in the public, such as molten salt reactors. The only reason I know about this is because of a small article in Motor Trend about an idea to power a car with one back in the 60's. They specifically talked about liquid fluoride thorium reactors which have numerous advantages over the reactors we use today.

No possibility of; a run away melt down, steam explosion, and low possibility of a conversion into nuclear weapon. The only real danger is a leak which can be contained by draining the fuel into a storage area. The fuel is more abundant than the uranium isotope we use now so it should be cheaper. The reactor is more efficient because it runs at higher temperatures, and the half life of the wast is on the order of 300 years instead of the 10's of thousands it takes for uranium waste. But it has disadvantages as well chief among them they haven't been used in large scale, or used at all in 40 years, and the current business model doesn't support them so there is no incentive for a change.

 

*Edit*

Here's some quick wiki links for anyone interested, but be warned they contain SCIENCE so they aren't the most easy to understand or entertaining read.

fluoride thorium reactor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Advantages

Molten salt reactors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor#Comparison_to_ordinary_light_water_reactors

[JJ Husker]

And thank you for pointing out that the current electric grid (which is responsible for charging these vehicles) is outdated and run predominately on fossil fuels. I try to not let it bother me when those Prius drivers look condescendingly at me as I fly by them in my Yukon XL.

Maybe they're looking condescendingly because the Prius was not plugged into the electrical grid prior to February of 2012?

 

 

 

 

 

Full disclosure: I drive a sports car. An older one . . . but definitely not a hybrid.

My point was that a lot of the typical hybrid/electric vehicle owners act like they have totally eliminated their energy consumption and environmental footprint. I'm sure it is better than mine, in most ways, but there are still plenty of issues that are not all hunky dory.

[carlfense]

My point was that a lot of the typical hybrid/electric vehicle owners act like they have totally eliminated their energy consumption and environmental footprint. I'm sure it is better than mine, in most ways, but there are still plenty of issues that are not all hunky dory.

Eh. I'm not really sold on hybrids. I think that eventually there will be a viable electric car . . . but these half-measures are just overly complex and expensive.

[Muck]

In the short term I don't think anything will bring rates down because we will be covering the cost of construction, and in the case of wind and solar waiting for technology to catch up and make it a more viable option. But since the majority of our power generation will have to be replaced in the not so distance future it doesn't seem too silly to invest in these alternatives, if anything they will at least lead to less long term pollution and better ideas. On the other hand we could just sit back and see how things work out for Germany in the next 20 years, but by then we will be 20 years further behind than we are now. Even Germany will use natural gas as a back up though.

 

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.

 

I was just addressing your claim that electric rates are climbing because of a reliance on fossil fuels. Unfortunately that isn't the case currently.

[ZRod]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying.

 

I was just addressing your claim that electric rates are climbing because of a reliance on fossil fuels. Unfortunately that isn't the case currently.

I would argue otherwise, rising fuel cost and an aging grid contribute greatly to the rise in electric rates.

 

Coal and petroleum prices are on the rise:http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/tables/?tableNumber=8#endcode=2011&startcode=2001. Natural gas is declining only because of over drilling flooding the market, but it accounts for a smaller portion of energy production: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008_US_electricity_generation_by_source_v2.png (best pie chart I could find)