carlfense Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Junior- I accept that Jesus is God, God is Jesus and that Mary isn't God. Couldn't agree more. My point about your struggle to maintain faith or believe was expressed because I feel you take too many absolute positions on things that we really are incapable of understanding 100%. Assume for a moment that there is an all powerful creator and that we are merely humans with a fraction of God's knowledge and power. Also assume that the Bible is his inspired word. Do you really think mere men should be so absolute in their interpretation of scripture or would it not be more wise to trust and have faith in God? Sure, there are some deal breakers that have to be considered absolutes but why create more on the basis of incomplete or human interpreteted information? I think it is just asking for problems. Be happy, worship the lord, and have faith that he will always do the right thing. Most everything else is not that important. Yes, I think you should be absolute in your interpretation of the scriptures. You shouldn't pick and choose parts of the Bible to follow and to ignore based on convenience or interpretations. Like eating shellfish. Clearly regarded by the Bible as an "abhorent", yet most Christians still do it. You can (and should if you believe in this sort of thing) have faith in God and not church figureheads. You fault me for my "interpretation" of the scripture, however, you seem to be putting your faith in man, and their interpretations of the Bible rather than the word of God himself. My stance is based on an absolute reading of the scriptures, which I do know a fair bit about, and yours is based on Catholic tradition. Shellfish = fine. Homosexuality = hell. Link to comment
Landlord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I'm good with that. But to reiterate, so even though the old testament says x person lived to be 936 years old, they may in fact have not lived anywhere near that long. Or they may have. I don't want to dwell on this Mary thing because I don't think it is a critical component. I'm happy where I'm at with it and you're happy where you're at with it. The only issue seems to be that you seem to be absolutely sure that Catholics have it wrong. On the other hand, I think there is a small, outside, chance they've got it wrong. I am not holding an absolute rigid positio but going with what I , and many religious scholars, have determined to be likely. You posted about 8 verses that, on the surface, would seem to contradict the position. I would simply add that exempting Mary from those verses would not materially change things. God chose her above all other women and she gave birth to our savior. Why not a one time exemption? It's not a very big stretch at all and would not need to have any wider repercussions. All those verses sure would sound a little funny if they had to add the disclaimer; except Jesus or except Jesus and his mother Mary. As I said before - if God could just choose to make Mary sinless, then God could just choose to make anyone and everyone sinless, and doesn't. The only two inevitable outcomes of this path of thinking are that God is not just or that Jesus didn't need to die. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Landlord- Those "coulds" in your rationale are awful important. And "your" determination that there are only two inevitable outcomes seem like you want to be the one making the rules. Howabout God didn't make everyone sinless, Jesus is necessary for salvation, and Mary either was immaculately conceived and sinless or she wasn't? Works for me and I know God understands my rationale. Link to comment
Landlord Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Landlord- Those "coulds" in your rationale are awful important. And "your" determination that there are only two inevitable outcomes seem like you want to be the one making the rules. Howabout God didn't make everyone sinless, Jesus is necessary for salvation, and Mary either was immaculately conceived and sinless or she wasn't? Works for me and I know God understands my rationale. It's not my rationale that uses the "coulds", I'm only arguing under the hypotheticals put forth by Catholic doctrine. God didn't make everyone sinless - Adam and Eve were without sin. But they disobeyed and sin entered the world through them to all people and all things. If Mary was immaculately conceived and sinless, then Mary was holy and part of the Godhead. That is the definition of holiness - to be free of sin, to be set apart. Obviously Mary is not God. I mean, I'm not going to dive into in-depth exegesis because it will fall on deaf ears. Search the Scriptures yourself, and a theologically-driven understanding of holiness. What concerns me the most is that you treat the Catholic faith like I would view some whacky cult. Trust me, it is Christ centered. There may be a little more there than you are used to and there may be a few things I simply don't agree with but they aren't leading people down the wrong path. Possibly you could look at like they're taking the scenic route and not just the most direct A to B path. As to this, I think they're leading plenty of people down the wrong path, as evidenced by the rampant sexual abuse and perversion amongst church leaders, the ritualization of things that are meant to be conscious and organically motivated, the hoarding of immense and great wealth and personal experiences with Catholic family members that display a remarkable lack of obedience towards Jesus, among other things. But this isn't to pick on only Catholics - this happens everywhere, in every denomination of the Christian church and every religion outside of it. When you say "it" is Christ centered, I have no idea what you are referring to. I know plenty of Catholics who live Christ-centered, I know Catholic churches that are Christ-centered, and I know and read and hear of many that are not, just as I do from every sect. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 We had what I would consider a couple applicable readings today in mass. First, try Phillipians 3:9, then revisit the story, in John I believe, about those without sin casting the first stone. I think both of these speak to humans tendency to judge things they are not qualified to be the judge of. Link to comment
Notre Dame Joe Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 I am highly entertained when people who have claimed no belief in God and have questioned the validity of the Bible, use the Bible to try to support their arguments. Would you be equally entertained by a capitalist referencing the words of Karl Marx when debating a Marxist? If he bases some assumptions on his own interpretation of the Manifesto, and then asserts he found a "Marx's logic" that is the only way of reading the text, then yes JJhusker would probably be entertained. I would yawn because I've heard it before. 1 Link to comment
Junior Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I can't help but be struck by how people taking a literal reading of the Bible are being accused of applying some crazy interpretation and people applying cryptic symbolism and outside sources to the scripture are reading the book as it was meant to be... I'd laugh if it weren't so ridiculous. 1 Link to comment
tschu Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 60 minutes is going to have a good Catholic Church segment. Just a heads-up Link to comment
Notre Dame Joe Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 I can't help but be struck by how people taking a literal reading of the Bible are being accused of applying some crazy interpretation and people applying cryptic symbolism and outside sources to the scripture are reading the book as it was meant to be... I'd laugh if it weren't so ridiculous. We didn't say "crazy." I would say self-serving and highly partisan,. btw the word "literal" did not exist in the times that the Bible was written. What you called "cryptic symbolism" includes what the ancients would consider "business as usual." Link to comment
tschu Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ah, yes, the issue of the Catholic Church being openly sexist and prohibiting women from doing pretty much anything. I'd like to hear some explanations about THAT. Link to comment
Notre Dame Joe Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ah, yes, the issue of the Catholic Church being openly sexist and prohibiting women from doing pretty much anything. I'd like to hear some explanations about THAT. Let us know if 60 Minutes accuses anyone of being an obselete source of insight that is no longer relevant inthe 21st century Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I can't help but be struck by how people taking a literal reading of the Bible are being accused of applying some crazy interpretation and people applying cryptic symbolism and outside sources to the scripture are reading the book as it was meant to be... I'd laugh if it weren't so ridiculous. You would have to show me where anybody claimed the literal translation was some "crazy" interpretation. What I have done is simply said that maybe it isn't that cut and dried and absolute. Why does everything have to be so black or white? Please tell me what your goal is in this discussion. Do you want me to denounce enough points of my personal belief structure that I become just like you? Do you want me to take every sentence in the Bible at face value in a vacuum and reach the conclusion that if every word, in the most simple terms, is not absolutely true on it's own, then the whole shootin match must be a crock? What's ridiculus is an atheist sticking up for compartmentalized, literal interpretations, when he is in basic disagreement of the most crucial parts, simply because another party agrees with him that is exactly how everyone should interpret it. It's ok, you can discount my beliefs and opinions because it is true I do not know scripture to the degree Landlord does. Funny thing is, I'm still Christian and very happy with my understanding of it. If I know anything at all about it, it is that I will not be judged by any man and God understands how and why I am where I am. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ah, yes, the issue of the Catholic Church being openly sexist and prohibiting women from doing pretty much anything. I'd like to hear some explanations about THAT. Like the proverbial bull in the china shop, you just can't avoid knocking sh#t off the shelves, can you? Link to comment
Landlord Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 lol @ you guys and your gross misuse of the word and idea of 'literal' in regards to the Bible wut is going on Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Literal (adj) being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical. Shrugs shoulders, wonders about misuse. Link to comment
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