Pope Benedict XVI to Resign

[JJ Husker]

+1 for Lutheran heritage.

 

As far as God being jealous of attention Mary receives.... he said so. Junior quoted the passage. The Catholic Church can put whatever lipstick they want on praying to Mary, but it's still a pig.

 

Mary wasn't "the mother" of Jesus in the same way that my mom was my mother. Mary was the vessel, nothing more, nothing less. She wasn't God's wife, she was just a necessary mechanism in the birth process.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not believe that passage applies to this issue. The main reason being, I feel the intent of the person is far more important to God than the literal words written down on paper. I do not intend to elevate Mary to God's level so therefore I am not doing the thing(s) this passage would seem to prohibit. Let me put it this way- If I go out and kill a man for no reason, I have committed murder. If I kill a man while defending myself or my family, I do not view that as murder or as breaking the Thou shalt not kill commandment.

 

Clarification- I'm not real big on the invoking Mary to intercede thing anyway. I know I can pray directly to the father so it would seem to be an unneeded, added step in the process. I just fail to see any harm in treating the mother of my savior with reverence and respect.

 

You are going to have a hard time convincing me that Mary was not the mother of Jesus in the same fashion that your mother was your mother. Who the father is/was is immaterial as far as a mother/son issue. The fact remains that both your mother and Mary conceived a child, carried it to term, gave birth, and were in some aspect responsible for the well being of the child for a period of time after giving birth. I would also assume that both you and Jesus loved your mothers and that your mothers loved their children. Please explain how your mother and Mary are different. And yes I realize your father was not God and that your mother was not part of any virgin birth process.

 

This should be good. I find it highly entertaining when people who don't believe in God or any of the supernatural aspects of the deal begin to expain how things really are.

 

edit- btw, I do not for one second doubt your background or knowledge of the issue. I just think you may have over stated something in the hopes of making some ill advised point about Mary not being special to Jesus or to God.

[JJ Husker]

The first Christians weren't in any way connected to the Catholic Church as we know it today. They were just... Christians. While today's Catholic Church tries to glom on to those early Christians and say they're the same church, there is NO WAY the beliefs of today's Catholics would in any way resonate with those early Christians. Not the church, the church hierarchy, not the tenets of the church, not the rituals, not the prayers, not the saints... I could go on and on. The Catholic Church of today is more like a car that's been rebuilt and rebuilt and rebuilt and rebuilt so many times that nearly every panel, bolt, wire and gauge is different than the original. It might resemble the original car, but it's not.

 

Which is kind of funny when someone complains that the church doesn't change with the times.

 

Look.....Everyone is correct in saying that the Catholic Church is totally different than the very first Catholic Church that was started. And, yes, there were "Christians" that existed before the Catholic Church. The Disciples were obviously Christians and there wasn't a Catholic Church when they were walking around with Jesus. Now, what is true is that the Catholic Church descends from what Peter started.

 

I really don't think that means a hill of beans other than it is an interesting fact. I personally don't think that ordains the Catholic Church to be any closer to God and Jesus than the local Baptist, Lutheran, Church of God...etc.

 

The fact is, almost all "traditions" in any religion come from humans. Very little in any church ceremony can be pointed out in the bible as directed by God. It is simply an idea that humans had that they use to worship God. That is why someone who wants to be Christian, needs to do what is right for them. Find the church that they feel comfortable in. There isn't a right church and wrong church.

 

So many of the "rules" that certain churches have come strictly from human's ideas of what should be done. For instance, I grew up in a church where they didn't believe in dancing. Really....even as a kid I thought that was pretty dumb. So me in the bible where it says we shouldn't dance. In fact, I think I can show you a few places where it talks about dancing as good.

 

The same can be said about the sexual ideas of the Catholic Church prior to vatican II. My mother and father in law grew up always believing that everything sexual was a sin no matter how committed and married you were to your partner. Well.....if you look back through the history of those teachings, it starts with a pope that had his own sexual issues so he started preaching that even sex to procreate was a sin.

 

Both sides of religion (believers and people who don't want anything to do with it) need to keep this in mind and distinguish between the two. There is a big difference between Christianity as it is in the Bible and what Jesus wanted and taught....and the view of religion today.

 

Thank you for understanding the difference between religion and the gospel. Seriously, thank you. This has brightened my day

 

 

 

 

We (you, me, and Landlord) are in agreement here but you both are missing the point (no matter how minor or unimportant it may be) that I was attempting to make. How's this then- Christianity is the first, original Christian religion. Catholicism was the first organized Christian religion with leadership positions and anything resembling what we would consider an organized religion today. I appreciate the fact that it does not require an "organization" to be a Christian and that to be a good Christian it does not require a person to be a member of any church or organized religion and that in some cases it may even be detrimental to be a member of the church rather than than just a plain old Christian. Did that help any?

 

 

Still disagree entirely - Christianity was the first organized Christian religion; not Catholicism. The first generation church depicted in Paul's epistles and in Acts had deacons, elders, servants, helpers, prophets, preachers, apostolic authority, governed community, etc. It was organized. It had leadership positions. It was nothing even remotely close to Catholicism.

 

Edit: I guess, if you want to use "organized religion" in a certain semantic, such that you're referring to a structure developed by humans with external and non-mandatory rules and regulations, then yes, I would agree with you, to a certain extent. But that's no credit to the Catholic church; in fact it's a discredit.

ok, oK, OK, you win. You are correct. I have gotten so used to Christianity being comprised of multiple sects and denominations with differing beliefs that I failed to consider Christianity, in and of itself, as the actual, first, Christian religion. Can I claim sloppy seconds for the Catholics????

[Junior]

+1 for Lutheran heritage.

 

As far as God being jealous of attention Mary receives.... he said so. Junior quoted the passage. The Catholic Church can put whatever lipstick they want on praying to Mary, but it's still a pig.

 

Mary wasn't "the mother" of Jesus in the same way that my mom was my mother. Mary was the vessel, nothing more, nothing less. She wasn't God's wife, she was just a necessary mechanism in the birth process.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I do not believe that passage applies to this issue. The main reason being, I feel the intent of the person is far more important to God than the literal words written down on paper. I do not intend to elevate Mary to God's level so therefore I am not doing the thing(s) this passage would seem to prohibit. Let me put it this way- If I go out and kill a man for no reason, I have committed murder. If I kill a man while defending myself or my family, I do not view that as murder or as breaking the Thou shalt not kill commandment.

 

Clarification- I'm not real big on the invoking Mary to intercede thing anyway. I know I can pray directly to the father so it would seem to be an unneeded, added step in the process. I just fail to see any harm in treating the mother of my savior with reverence and respect.

 

You are going to have a hard time convincing me that Mary was not the mother of Jesus in the same fashion that your mother was your mother. Who the father is/was is immaterial as far as a mother/son issue. The fact remains that both your mother and Mary conceived a child, carried it to term, gave birth, and were in some aspect responsible for the well being of the child for a period of time after giving birth. I would also assume that both you and Jesus loved your mothers and that your mothers loved their children. Please explain how your mother and Mary are different. And yes I realize your father was not God and that your mother was not part of any virgin birth process.

 

This should be good. I find it highly entertaining when people who don't believe in God or any of the supernatural aspects of the deal begin to expain how things really are.

 

Sorry, but the passage doesn't say anything about elevating an idol above God, the passage says you shall not bow to them. At all.

[JJ Husker]

 

Which is kind of funny when someone complains that the church doesn't change with the times.

 

Look.....Everyone is correct in saying that the Catholic Church is totally different than the very first Catholic Church that was started. And, yes, there were "Christians" that existed before the Catholic Church. The Disciples were obviously Christians and there wasn't a Catholic Church when they were walking around with Jesus. Now, what is true is that the Catholic Church descends from what Peter started.

 

I really don't think that means a hill of beans other than it is an interesting fact. I personally don't think that ordains the Catholic Church to be any closer to God and Jesus than the local Baptist, Lutheran, Church of God...etc.

 

The fact is, almost all "traditions" in any religion come from humans. Very little in any church ceremony can be pointed out in the bible as directed by God. It is simply an idea that humans had that they use to worship God. That is why someone who wants to be Christian, needs to do what is right for them. Find the church that they feel comfortable in. There isn't a right church and wrong church.

 

So many of the "rules" that certain churches have come strictly from human's ideas of what should be done. For instance, I grew up in a church where they didn't believe in dancing. Really....even as a kid I thought that was pretty dumb. Show me in the bible where it says we shouldn't dance. In fact, I think I can show you a few places where it talks about dancing as good.

 

The same can be said about the sexual ideas of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II. My mother and father in law grew up always believing that everything sexual was a sin no matter how committed and married you were to your partner. Well.....if you look back through the history of those teachings, it starts with a pope that had his own sexual issues so he started preaching that even sex to procreate was a sin. How stupid is that?

 

Both sides of religion (believers and people who don't want anything to do with it) need to keep this in mind and distinguish between the two. There is a big difference between Christianity as it is in the Bible and what Jesus wanted and taught....and the view of religion today.

Great post BRB. I stand corrected on the misguided point I was attempting.

[JJ Husker]

 

Sorry, but the passage doesn't say anything about elevating an idol above God, the passage says you shall not bow to them. At all.

 

Uh, well, um, thanks for the information but please tell me when I have ever bowed to Mary? I can't recall ever doing that or it ever taking place in the Catholic church. It's not that I think that bowing would cross the threshold it's just that, to my knowledge, it doesn't happen.

[QMany]

Just to let you guys know, I find this conversation very intriguing. You all seem to know your sh*t.

 

I was born into a Catholic family but have never agreed with the beliefs, practiced, or taken up any other religion. I am not religious at all, but I find conversations like this very interesting.

[knapplc]

By praying to Mary, something you should ONLY do to God, you attach godhead to her. By praying to someone you perceive as a god, or to have godly powers, you are bowing to them.

 

It may be semantic, but the reality is the same no matter the words you use to describe it.

[QMany]

Especially when you look at the history of events that led from the Pope being just another bishop with no more or less power to becoming the position we have today. Wacky stuff.

Could you expound on this? I'm interested in this history.

Googling "Pope Bishop History" just ain't going to cut it.

[BigRedBuster]

By praying to Mary, something you should ONLY do to God, you attach godhead to her. By praying to someone you perceive as a god, or to have godly powers, you are bowing to them.

 

It may be semantic, but the reality is the same no matter the words you use to describe it.

 

 

It depends on what you mean by praying.

[Landlord]

Especially when you look at the history of events that led from the Pope being just another bishop with no more or less power to becoming the position we have today. Wacky stuff.

Could you expound on this? I'm interested in this history.

Googling "Pope Bishop History" just ain't going to cut it.

 

 

When I get home I'll try giving this full attention

[QMany]

Especially when you look at the history of events that led from the Pope being just another bishop with no more or less power to becoming the position we have today. Wacky stuff.

Could you expound on this? I'm interested in this history.

Googling "Pope Bishop History" just ain't going to cut it.

 

 

When I get home I'll try giving this full attention

Thanks!

 

I have found the infatuation with the Pope weird and didn't know it used to be so different. Looking forward to your essay.

[BigRedBuster]

I can see why someone outside the church thinks it's weird. But, please remember that most Catholics (American at least) view this with passing interest at most and realize that whoever is Pope really has absolutely no influence on them personally, their local church, or even their diocese.

[QMany]

I hope I don't offend anyone saying its weird. I liken it to the Royal Family. They don't really do anything, it is about pageantry. This is a complete outsider POV.

[Landlord]

I can see why someone outside the church thinks it's weird. But, please remember that most Catholics (American at least) view this with passing interest at most and realize that whoever is Pope really has absolutely no influence on them personally, their local church, or even their diocese.

 

 

Here's the thing that I just do not understand for the life of me, if this is true...

 

 

THEN WHY ARE THEY CATHOLIC?

[JJ Husker]

By praying to Mary, something you should ONLY do to God, you attach godhead to her. By praying to someone you perceive as a god, or to have godly powers, you are bowing to them.

 

It may be semantic, but the reality is the same no matter the words you use to describe it.

I simply have to disagree. this is not how I view it and is definitely not my intent on the occassions I may participate in the Hail Mary.

I do not attach godhead to her and I do not believe most Catholics do either.

I do not perceive her as God and do not assign Godly powers to her. If you are interpreting the mere fact that someone may be invoking her help (praying to her) as an indication that, because a person thinks she can hear/receive that request, that gives her Godly powers, well I don't know how to answer that. I would have to do a little research on that. Yes, Catholics invoke the help of angels, saints, and Mary in a manner very similar to praying to God. If your claim is that only God can hear prayers, therefore any similar attempt at speaking to these other entities is akin to worshipping other Gods, I certainly don't view it that way but I am now going to look for some scriptural backing for why it occurs.

 

As I have said many times, my personal belief is the intent of the person is much more important than simple facts or words on a piece of paper. If it is not my intent to worship another god, then I do not believe God would view these types of prayers in that light. You may be able to fool other people or even yourself but, nobody can fool God. He knows what is in our hearts. So, I do not believe the semantics, either way, make it any sort of reality.