Iraq- will it fall to the terrorists?

[wildman]

@Wildman - the lies about WMDs has been covered, and that's a big part of my answer.

 

As for the civilians welcoming us with open arms - Many of them did, and were glad we came over to oust Saddam. But across the world, especially in Africa, there are regimes as brutal or more brutal to their citizens, and yet we don't invade those countries. We cannot and should not invade every country with a tyrant. It's not our job, it's not worth getting Americans killed, it's not worth the toll it takes on soldiers' families back home.

 

Thank you for the reply.

 

I agree we shouldn't invade every country with a tyrant. Especially when we cant take care of our own. With how unemployment grew larger. Plus with the homeless we have in this country. To me those issues, plus economy should be fixed prior to going and solving issues in another country.

 

@wildman, I think a lot of Iraqis probably welcomed the ouster of Saddam. The Iraq War was probably always about regime change and I can't say it was done with bad intentions. But we've left it a mess. And worse, maybe not even that stable (right?) It's a great example I think of why we should not simply go out of our way and try to nation build. When the circumstances call for it, when we have to (i.e, Japan), by all means...otherwise, the world's lone superpower has to have some responsibility to not meddle wherever it pleases, because it's not that easy to transform a country and we're the ones deciding to pull the trigger on death and destruction when we try.

 

For what it's worth in the WWII comparison, I think history has been pretty critical of the area bombing in Dresden, Tokyo, Vietnam, etc. Like the mustard gas or chlorine of WWI, it's probably mostly thought of as an ugly product of the era, and something we're glad to be free from now.

 

Yes we left it a mess no arguing that. But to me that is Obama's fault for pulling out to early. Since we went in and was changing them to be more western world. With how their country was run and pretty much how they had no military for support. We should of stayed there much longer, making it another Korea style base. But only should of stayed longer if and only if the locals were showing support for the change and military growing and getting better.

[BigRedBuster]

Iraq and WWII have next to nothing in common.

I agree and I never said they did have anything in common.

[TGHusker]

 

 

 

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

 

We weren't doing the invading in WWII. In fact, the truth has to be stretched to the breaking point to even get Iraq and WWII into the same conversation.

 

What truth is being stretched in my post?

 

I am simply stating that war used to be that we would go in and blow up everything and that was acceptable because we knew it had to be done to win. Now days, our military has gone to great lengths and amazing amounts of money per bomb to do everything we can to not kill innocent people and they are constantly criticized for doing so.

 

This point has nothing to do with if we are the invader or not.

 

Wildman seemed to get the gist of my post. Sorry you didn't.

That's the equivalent of firing an arrow and painting a bullseye around it.

 

 

Good quote!

[carlfense]

Good quote!

It's definitely not mine but it sure seems apt when talking about the deposing of a dictator/nation building in Iraq. You can surely argue after the fact that those are good things . . . but they're also not the reason why we were told that we needed to go to war.

[BigRedBuster]

 

Good quote!

It's definitely not mine but it sure seems apt when talking about the deposing of a dictator/nation building in Iraq. You can surely argue after the fact that those are good things . . . but they're also not the reason why we were told that we needed to go to war.

 

Funny thing was, my quote had nothing to do with nation building, invading, who the aggressor is/was or what ever you want to make it out to be.

[carlfense]

 

 

Good quote!

It's definitely not mine but it sure seems apt when talking about the deposing of a dictator/nation building in Iraq. You can surely argue after the fact that those are good things . . . but they're also not the reason why we were told that we needed to go to war.

 

Funny thing was, my quote had nothing to do with nation building, invading, who the aggressor is/was or what ever you want to make it out to be.

 

No. You'd mentioned something comparing the tyrants in Iraq and Nazi Germany and how the world is a better place without them. Wildman had added some comments about the good that the military had done in Iraq.

 

I just wanted to point out that any good that comes out of it can't really be used to justify the war if they weren't the reason for the war in the first place. If that's not what you intended I apologize.

[BigRedBuster]

 

I'm serious with one caveat....now that I think about it. Obviously there has been a lot of criticism of how we won against Japan.

Not just Japan . . . I'm sure that you know about Dresden, for example. Maybe you've just forgotten some of it?

 

Dresden was more of a complaint about "where" we bombed instead of "How" we bombed. If it wasn't just a cultural center of the country and it really was a military center, there wouldn't have been nearly the uproar about us leveling the city.

[carlfense]

 

 

I'm serious with one caveat....now that I think about it. Obviously there has been a lot of criticism of how we won against Japan.

Not just Japan . . . I'm sure that you know about Dresden, for example. Maybe you've just forgotten some of it?

 

Dresden was more of a complaint about "where" we bombed instead of "How" we bombed. If it wasn't just a cultural center of the country and it really was a military center, there wouldn't have been nearly the uproar about us leveling the city.

 

That's not really my understanding of how it played out. The wiki article is decent . . . but it's still wikipedia, of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

 

The wartime and post-war debate sections are on point.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

I'm serious with one caveat....now that I think about it. Obviously there has been a lot of criticism of how we won against Japan.

Not just Japan . . . I'm sure that you know about Dresden, for example. Maybe you've just forgotten some of it?

 

Dresden was more of a complaint about "where" we bombed instead of "How" we bombed. If it wasn't just a cultural center of the country and it really was a military center, there wouldn't have been nearly the uproar about us leveling the city.

 

That's not really my understanding of how it played out. The wiki article is decent . . . but it's still wikipedia, of course:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

 

The wartime and post-war debate sections are on point.

 

If you read from

"That it was not necessary or justified"

It touches on what I was saying. Yes, after the war the international community moved to make mass bombing of civilians a war crime. However, that was done in many many cities across Europe. Dresden was debated a lot because it was questionable if it was really a military establishment or not.

 

The mass bombing of entire cities happened all throughout the war and it really didn't diminish much support for the war. Everyone knew it was a horrible situation but most people looked at it as a horrible necessity.

[BigRedBuster]

You can't help people who aren't willing to help themselves.

 

LINK

 

 

The one sentence that explains why Iraq is falling apart

 

 

Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers - roughly 30,000 men - simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters.

 

[MidnightRider]

You can't help people who aren't willing to help themselves.

 

LINK

 

 

 

The one sentence that explains why Iraq is falling apart

 

 

Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers - roughly 30,000 men - simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters.[/size]

 

Yup. Only after spending billions equipping and training them. The rebels (or whatever we want to call them) also stole almost 500 million dollars from a bank and emptied several motor pools worth of equipment that we provided. Next up? My guess is ASPs, if they haven't done so already. Sh#t's gonna get real, real quick, when that happens. I also look for other foreign interests to get involved (Iran, for one) by arming the rebels ala Syria.

 

See? We really are awesome at nation building.

 

That even a single American died in this sh#thole is a tragedy. And now this?

[BigRedBuster]

Obviously we have proven many times it just doesn't work. However, I am puzzled at something.

 

Why can we go kick the sh#t out of Germany and Japan, have bases there till this day and be their friends now and they have built themselves both to be powers in the world. Meanwhile, so many other places it just turns into a disaster?

Do you think it has to do with the society that is within the country itself?

[TGHusker]

Looks like it is becoming an army now

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/11/iraq-s-terrorists-are-becoming-a-full-blown-army.html

 

Biden opps - of course not bigger than 'mission accomplished'

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/biden-once-called-iraq-one-obamas-great-achievments_794909.html

[zoogs]

Obviously we have proven many times it just doesn't work. However, I am puzzled at something.

 

Why can we go kick the sh#t out of Germany and Japan, have bases there till this day and be their friends now and they have built themselves both to be powers in the world. Meanwhile, so many other places it just turns into a disaster?

 

Do you think it has to do with the society that is within the country itself?

There's a similarity in culture, especially with Germany. Japan not really, but I think they had a history of being receptive or adaptive to the outside world more so than some of their neighbors. Also they were completely devastated by the war and fully occupied. Iraq was always different. Perhaps if there was more of a global impetus behind it, perhaps if the war really did devastate the country utterly, and there was an international cooperative occupation and rebuilding effort...

 

I think there was just never enough of a justification in Iraq to stomach that kind of backing and commitment, and we knew it, too. But then that doesn't really come without a total war. That administration just had some grandiose nation-building delusions and really think they should be held accountable for it. Are there many examples in history of "Hey, we'll go in, knock this guy out and install a new government in its place in our own image" that really worked?

[MidnightRider]

Obviously we have proven many times it just doesn't work. However, I am puzzled at something.

 

Why can we go kick the sh#t out of Germany and Japan, have bases there till this day and be their friends now and they have built themselves both to be powers in the world. Meanwhile, so many other places it just turns into a disaster?

 

Do you think it has to do with the society that is within the country itself?

It has everything to do with the Neanderthals inhabiting that particular patch of earth. Heathens, through and through. Let's see; they stone girls to death just for going to school. Check. They wipe their a#ses with their hands. Check. They sh#t all over a toilet instead of in it. Check. Women are for pro-creating and boys are for "fun." Check. Barbarians, the whole lot of them. I would not lose a single second of sleep if we turned the entire region into an ashtray.

 

Before anyone gets all butt-hurt about what I just wrote, I invite you to spend a little time with the friendly folks of the Middle East. You will walk away stunned...