Iraq- will it fall to the terrorists?

[strigori]

 

 

 

"Who's to blame" is the wrong question. "What can best be done to fix it" or "Is it our responsibility to fix" or "Do the people living there even want what we would consider a fix" are more appropriate questions.

I'll go with that - as far as going forward. I'm thinking of in a historical sense as we look back.

 

 

Interestingly, the only other war to span more than one presidency (decided via election - ignoring Wilson/Truman) was the Vietnam war. That was started by Johnson and finished by Nixon. After America left, North Vietnam crushed the south and united the country.

 

History remembers Vietnam not as belonging to Nixon or Johnson, but as a huge mistake. Bush caused the war, Johnson dramatically escalated the war. Nixon & Obama were left to clean up disastrous messes, and did so as best they could. There was never a right way to end Vietnam or Iraq - we never should have been in either place, and the end was messy.

 

 

I've served 2 deployments in Iraq. I'm always curious on why people say or think we shouldn't of been there. So I'm curious to hear your reason. If you don't mind sharing.

 

The easiest two points are it was started under false pretenses, and had no exit strategy. The leadership in the White House at the time, thought the people would be welcoming us with roses and just about tripping over themselves to have democracy. It didn't happen that way. Trillions of dollars, tens of thousands of lives, and in the end there looks to be very little to show for the great expense.

[StPaulHusker]

WWII showed us that only complete and utter annihilation will make your enemy surrender.

 

That didn't happen in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan. We gave too much credence to religion, warlords, culture, collateral damage, and popular thought.

[wildman]

Because we launched a unilateral attack under false pretenses that was in no way worth the loss of US lives (not to mention the personal costs borne by those who survived and the enormous fiscal costs).

 

 

I've served 2 deployments in Iraq. I'm always curious on why people say or think we shouldn't of been there. So I'm curious to hear your reason. If you don't mind sharing.

 

 

Thank you for your service but I'm sorry that our leaders sent you there.

 

The easiest two points are it was started under false pretenses, and had no exit strategy. The leadership in the White House at the time, thought the people would be welcoming us with roses and just about tripping over themselves to have democracy. It didn't happen that way. Trillions of dollars, tens of thousands of lives, and in the end there looks to be very little to show for the great expense.

Thank you for replying both of you. I love talking about this, will never argue it. Cause as we all know we have the right to our own opinion. I love hearing others as you have a different view point then I had. Yall see the news reports and heard what was on tv. I got to see most of it through my own eyes and in military reports.

 

Both of yall stated it was under false pretenses. I'm assuming your talking about the wmd's here. I agree none were found and points to us being lied to. If thats the case I'd agree with you. But one of the things i've seen, that people i've talked never heard about. Was that we had troops that set up base in Baghdad, lived there for months. That happened to of been in a empty dirt lot where fighter jets were buried. No one knew they were there until a soldier walking back from guard duty. Happened to kick some dirt uncovering part of the tail fin. They thought it was unexploded ordinance and called in EOD. They ended up finding 2 or 3 fighter jets buried there. With the engines and other important mechanical parts covered in plastic protecting them. After inspection they were deemed flyable after being cleaned up. Also read some of the reports about where inspectors were taken to find wmd's. Saying they were taken to a empty sandy lot told they are buried out here. I've been on convoy's going from Baghdad to Kuwait. To describe what that would be like is taking you to a empty field between Lincoln and Grand Island saying well the tractor is buried out there somewhere.

 

From my perspective we were welcome with open arms. Not in all locations, but for the most part that I seen we were. We came in and got rid of a guy that was torturing and killing them. Plus had 2 sons per their stories were worse then he was.

 

So were we lied to by Bush and the administration yea probably. But could there be wmd's and we just never found them yea I would say it's possible. I hope they are found someday so that everyone feels better about being there. Honestly don't think it'll ever happen though. I agree I wish we never would of lost one American soldier, or any soldier from a supporting country.

 

Carlfense your welcome for the service. But please don't feel sorry that I had to go, i signed up wanting to go. I'm damn proud of what i've done and been through there. I am honored to say I helped get rid of a dictator and provide that country freedom. For as little as it may last.

[Junior]

 

Thank you for replying both of you. I love talking about this, will never argue it. Cause as we all know we have the right to our own opinion. I love hearing others as you have a different view point then I had. Yall see the news reports and heard what was on tv. I got to see most of it through my own eyes and in military reports.

 

Both of yall stated it was under false pretenses. I'm assuming your talking about the wmd's here. I agree none were found and points to us being lied to. If thats the case I'd agree with you. But one of the things i've seen, that people i've talked never heard about. Was that we had troops that set up base in Baghdad, lived there for months. That happened to of been in a empty dirt lot where fighter jets were buried. No one knew they were there until a soldier walking back from guard duty. Happened to kick some dirt uncovering part of the tail fin. They thought it was unexploded ordinance and called in EOD. They ended up finding 2 or 3 fighter jets buried there. With the engines and other important mechanical parts covered in plastic protecting them. After inspection they were deemed flyable after being cleaned up. Also read some of the reports about where inspectors were taken to find wmd's. Saying they were taken to a empty sandy lot told they are buried out here. I've been on convoy's going from Baghdad to Kuwait. To describe what that would be like is taking you to a empty field between Lincoln and Grand Island saying well the tractor is buried out there somewhere.

 

From my perspective we were welcome with open arms. Not in all locations, but for the most part that I seen we were. We came in and got rid of a guy that was torturing and killing them. Plus had 2 sons per their stories were worse then he was.

 

So were we lied to by Bush and the administration yea probably. But could there be wmd's and we just never found them yea I would say it's possible. I hope they are found someday so that everyone feels better about being there. Honestly don't think it'll ever happen though. I agree I wish we never would of lost one American soldier, or any soldier from a supporting country.

 

Carlfense your welcome for the service. But please don't feel sorry that I had to go, i signed up wanting to go. I'm damn proud of what i've done and been through there. I am honored to say I helped get rid of a dictator and provide that country freedom. For as little as it may last.

 

 

Regarding the bold statement, it really isn't a "probably" at this point. They lied and we all know it.

 

http://www.salon.com/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/

[carlfense]

Thank you for replying both of you. I love talking about this, will never argue it. Cause as we all know we have the right to our own opinion. I love hearing others as you have a different view point then I had. Yall see the news reports and heard what was on tv. I got to see most of it through my own eyes and in military reports.

Both of yall stated it was under false pretenses. I'm assuming your talking about the wmd's here. I agree none were found and points to us being lied to. If thats the case I'd agree with you. But one of the things i've seen, that people i've talked never heard about. Was that we had troops that set up base in Baghdad, lived there for months. That happened to of been in a empty dirt lot where fighter jets were buried. No one knew they were there until a soldier walking back from guard duty. Happened to kick some dirt uncovering part of the tail fin. They thought it was unexploded ordinance and called in EOD. They ended up finding 2 or 3 fighter jets buried there. With the engines and other important mechanical parts covered in plastic protecting them. After inspection they were deemed flyable after being cleaned up. Also read some of the reports about where inspectors were taken to find wmd's. Saying they were taken to a empty sandy lot told they are buried out here. I've been on convoy's going from Baghdad to Kuwait. To describe what that would be like is taking you to a empty field between Lincoln and Grand Island saying well the tractor is buried out there somewhere.

 

From my perspective we were welcome with open arms. Not in all locations, but for the most part that I seen we were. We came in and got rid of a guy that was torturing and killing them. Plus had 2 sons per their stories were worse then he was.

 

So were we lied to by Bush and the administration yea probably. But could there be wmd's and we just never found them yea I would say it's possible. I hope they are found someday so that everyone feels better about being there. Honestly don't think it'll ever happen though. I agree I wish we never would of lost one American soldier, or any soldier from a supporting country.

 

Carlfense your welcome for the service. But please don't feel sorry that I had to go, i signed up wanting to go. I'm damn proud of what i've done and been through there. I am honored to say I helped get rid of a dictator and provide that country freedom. For as little as it may last.

 

It wasn't just the general lies about WMDs/nukes it was the specifics. The aluminum tubes that are only used for centrifuges. The yellow cake forgeries (that were known to be forgeries!) and were still presented as factual. Etc.

 

These were false (and known to be false) and were still used to beat the war drum.

 

I'm glad that you survived. I'm saddened that so many didn't. Personally, I think that the politicians who vote to wage that kind of war should be required to join the frontline units. It might help them understand the true costs.

[wildman]

WWII showed us that only complete and utter annihilation will make your enemy surrender.

 

That didn't happen in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan. We gave too much credence to religion, warlords, culture, collateral damage, and popular thought.

I disagree with this. When we go to war with someone yes total annihilation makes them surrender. There is no arguing that. But we go to war with their government not their local people. Blowing up, destroying, taking over government buildings and killing their soldiers. Weighs in more on a government. Then killing a bunch of locals and blowing up a supermarket, coffee shop and retail stores.

[BigRedBuster]

 

WWII showed us that only complete and utter annihilation will make your enemy surrender.

 

That didn't happen in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan. We gave too much credence to religion, warlords, culture, collateral damage, and popular thought.

I disagree with this. When we go to war with someone yes total annihilation makes them surrender. There is no arguing that. But we go to war with their government not their local people. Blowing up, destroying, taking over government buildings and killing their soldiers. Weighs in more on a government. Then killing a bunch of locals and blowing up a supermarket, coffee shop and retail stores.

 

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

[wildman]

 

Thank you for replying both of you. I love talking about this, will never argue it. Cause as we all know we have the right to our own opinion. I love hearing others as you have a different view point then I had. Yall see the news reports and heard what was on tv. I got to see most of it through my own eyes and in military reports.

Both of yall stated it was under false pretenses. I'm assuming your talking about the wmd's here. I agree none were found and points to us being lied to. If thats the case I'd agree with you. But one of the things i've seen, that people i've talked never heard about. Was that we had troops that set up base in Baghdad, lived there for months. That happened to of been in a empty dirt lot where fighter jets were buried. No one knew they were there until a soldier walking back from guard duty. Happened to kick some dirt uncovering part of the tail fin. They thought it was unexploded ordinance and called in EOD. They ended up finding 2 or 3 fighter jets buried there. With the engines and other important mechanical parts covered in plastic protecting them. After inspection they were deemed flyable after being cleaned up. Also read some of the reports about where inspectors were taken to find wmd's. Saying they were taken to a empty sandy lot told they are buried out here. I've been on convoy's going from Baghdad to Kuwait. To describe what that would be like is taking you to a empty field between Lincoln and Grand Island saying well the tractor is buried out there somewhere.

 

From my perspective we were welcome with open arms. Not in all locations, but for the most part that I seen we were. We came in and got rid of a guy that was torturing and killing them. Plus had 2 sons per their stories were worse then he was.

 

So were we lied to by Bush and the administration yea probably. But could there be wmd's and we just never found them yea I would say it's possible. I hope they are found someday so that everyone feels better about being there. Honestly don't think it'll ever happen though. I agree I wish we never would of lost one American soldier, or any soldier from a supporting country.

 

Carlfense your welcome for the service. But please don't feel sorry that I had to go, i signed up wanting to go. I'm damn proud of what i've done and been through there. I am honored to say I helped get rid of a dictator and provide that country freedom. For as little as it may last.

 

It wasn't just the general lies about WMDs/nukes it was the specifics. The aluminum tubes that are only used for centrifuges. The yellow cake forgeries (that were known to be forgeries!) and were still presented as factual. Etc.

 

These were false (and known to be false) and were still used to beat the war drum.

 

I'm glad that you survived. I'm saddened that so many didn't. Personally, I think that the politicians who vote to wage that kind of war should be required to join the frontline units. It might help them understand the true costs.

 

 

Ok yea I see where you coming from. Yes I think it should be mandatory that everyone serves at least 2 years in the military. It's not for everyone. Even if you don't make it thats fine. A lot of those that enlist don't make it. I only made it through 4 years myself. But the pride I have and work ethics I got out of it are not matched anywhere other than maybe college sports. To me the discipline enough is good enough for everyone to give it a 2 year try.

 

Yea I agree I think politicians should be in the combat zone with the troops and lead in by Generals like they use to be. It'd make going to war a much harder decision.

[wildman]

 

 

WWII showed us that only complete and utter annihilation will make your enemy surrender.

 

That didn't happen in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan. We gave too much credence to religion, warlords, culture, collateral damage, and popular thought.

I disagree with this. When we go to war with someone yes total annihilation makes them surrender. There is no arguing that. But we go to war with their government not their local people. Blowing up, destroying, taking over government buildings and killing their soldiers. Weighs in more on a government. Then killing a bunch of locals and blowing up a supermarket, coffee shop and retail stores.

 

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

 

 

good point. But drastic differences in both wars.

 

1. In world war 2 we killed a lot of innocent civilians. But the bombs we had were not as advanced as we have now. So we couldn't guide them into take out just government buildings and military targets. Plus spare the civilians like we can now.

 

2. Now that have the technology to do it civilians being killed now because of stray missiles and guided bombs is scene as a much worse offense then it use to be. killing innocent civilians is never a good thing. I'm sure a lot of the guided bombs we have now was do to how many civilians were killed because of our government in Germany and Japan. We learned from our mistakes

[StPaulHusker]

 

WWII showed us that only complete and utter annihilation will make your enemy surrender.

 

That didn't happen in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan. We gave too much credence to religion, warlords, culture, collateral damage, and popular thought.

I disagree with this. When we go to war with someone yes total annihilation makes them surrender. There is no arguing that. But we go to war with their government not their local people. Blowing up, destroying, taking over government buildings and killing their soldiers. Weighs in more on a government. Then killing a bunch of locals and blowing up a supermarket, coffee shop and retail stores.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree.

[carlfense]

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

 

We weren't doing the invading in WWII. In fact, the truth has to be stretched to the breaking point to even get Iraq and WWII into the same conversation.

[BigRedBuster]

 

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

 

We weren't doing the invading in WWII. In fact, the truth has to be stretched to the breaking point to even get Iraq and WWII into the same conversation.

 

What truth is being stretched in my post?

 

I am simply stating that war used to be that we would go in and blow up everything and that was acceptable because we knew it had to be done to win. Now days, our military has gone to great lengths and amazing amounts of money per bomb to do everything we can to not kill innocent people and they are constantly criticized for doing so.

 

This point has nothing to do with if we are the invader or not.

 

Wildman seemed to get the gist of my post. Sorry you didn't.

[StPaulHusker]

 

 

funny thing is, when we went to war in WWII, we blew everything to hell. We flew huge bombers thousands of feet above and dropped bombs that literally just fell no what ever was in it's path. Huge cities were turned to ruins from literally bombing them like this for weeks.

 

Meanwhile, in the Iraq war, our military uses bombs so precise they can hit individual houses from miles away. Yes, some went a stray but not from lack of trying to be precise. We would sometimes NOT bomb because of too many pedestrians in the way. We would bomb at night partly because fewer people would be in government buildings.

 

And.....WWII is held up as the great war that we fought right. Iraq, we are a bunch of heathens that bomb innocent people. Both Iraq and Germany were led by tyrants that the world is better off without and in the end, both are gone from the face of the earth.

 

We weren't doing the invading in WWII. In fact, the truth has to be stretched to the breaking point to even get Iraq and WWII into the same conversation.

 

What truth is being stretched in my post?

 

I am simply stating that war used to be that we would go in and blow up everything and that was acceptable because we knew it had to be done to win. Now days, our military has gone to great lengths and amazing amounts of money per bomb to do everything we can to not kill innocent people and they are constantly criticized for doing so.

 

This point has nothing to do with if we are the invader or not.

 

Wildman seemed to get the gist of my post. Sorry you didn't.

 

The reason there is more criticism now is based on the popular opinion of the war, good or bad.

 

 

WWII-Popular opinion was good. No one cares how we win. Just win

Vietnam-Popular opinion was bad, so our soldiers we deemed baby killers

Afghanistan-Twin Towers go down, Popular opinion was pretty good so there wasn't much criticism

Iraq-Popular opinion is bad so our soldiers are criticized again.

[wildman]

 

WWII-Popular opinion was good. No one cares how we win. Just win

Vietnam-Popular opinion was bad, so our soldiers we deemed baby killers

Afghanistan-Twin Towers go down, Popular opinion was pretty good so there wasn't much criticism

Iraq-Popular opinion is bad so our soldiers are criticized again.

 

 

Well said +1

[HUSKER FREAK]

The difference between WWII and any of the wars after that is the fact that we wont sit and wait for some extremist to take over country after country until we step in. We can't afford to. We won't wait until the crazies gain the popularity that Hitler Gained before WWII. Or before we were forced into the war. It's a bad situation no matter what and we will be criticized no matter what.