Why Are You an Atheist or a Believer?

[Scratchtown]

 

Child like faith brother.

 

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

 

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

 

So God stole from someone who earned that money (possibly another believer) in order to pay you back is what youre saying?

 

No.

[Scratchtown]

 

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

 

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

And I feel sorry for those who believe that their fate is predetermined and they can't shape their destiny.

 

I also wish I knew what happened to that cash I had in my pocket a few weeks back. I know I didn't spend it, but for the life if me I can't find it. I could really use it right about now...

 

 

Isn't it kind of funny how you think that I believe I can't shape my destiny but yet atheists believe that everything is chance and randomness...Didn't Steven Hawking say that the universe was formed because it needed it self to be? Sounds like a pretty predetermined "destiny".

[Scratchtown]

I've said this before on the board, probably close to a year ago.

 

When taking an element and breaking it down to the molecules and atoms, you never get to the end of the road when finding the next smallest part. There is no end. We don't see it, but we know it has to be there logically.

 

Same thing with traveling out in space. You don't hit an imaginary wall, or, circle around to where you began (Keep going east to end up west).

 

 

[NUance]

 

Thanks for sharing, Husker_X. Do you think part of your break with believing in God was due to rebelling against your fundamentalist upbringing? I don't ask you because I think *that* makes your atheist views wrong. (Although I do think your atheist views are wrong. But for other reasons. lol)

 

I ask about this because, if true, I agree with you that investigating and challenging is good. When I was a kid, maybe junior high age or so, I recall being turned off by ministers who trotted out their particular flavor of Christianity to be the one true flavor. I reasoned that most people are Baptists (or Catholics, Quakers, atheists, Muslims, etc.) solely because their parents held those particular beliefs. My parents and grandparents were Baptists. But I took it upon myself to investigate and experience other views. Unlike you though I became stronger in my faith. Even though I ended up adopting a church family with beliefs much different than those of my parents' Baptist church.

 

In any case I applaud you for taking it upon yourself to investigate and challenge the beliefs you grew up with. But I feel sorry for you inasmuch as I think you reached the wrong conclusion.

You think I reached the wrong conclusion, but neither you nor anyone else I've met that's of a religious persuasion can say why, or provide a logical alternative. I hear a lot about feelings and "I just can't understand how X . . ." logic (which technically is a fallacy called the argument from ignorance), but that's about it. Since the burden of proof is on the believer, I need more.

 

I suppose having a fundamentalist aspect to my upbringing makes it easier to put cracks in the foundation, but I don't want to give you guys and gals the wrong idea: I wasn't living in the Phelps household exactly. Like I said, my change of mind was based on a lot of research and debate. I haven't met many Christians who can say the same going the other direction.

 

 

If I understand your position, you want definitive proof of God's existence. And if no proof is forthcoming that you deem sufficient, then you'll maintain your position that there is no God.

 

But what if God's designs for us require faith? Faith in the absence of definitive proof? Maybe, for whatever reason, that's how God winnows out the wheat from the chaff. Those who have faith, and those who don't. If God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who created the universe, why should he bend to our demands for proof? Does the clay pot have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

 

As for proof, what sort of proof would you require in order for you to believe in God? Would the proof need to come directly from God to you? Would God need to provide proof to all 7.32 billion people of the earth in various manners tailored to each one's individual proof requirements? Don't get me wrong. I believe if God wanted to, he could. I mean, in view of the task of creating the whole universe, I think providing individually tailored proof to each of us wouldn't even cause God to break a sweat. But maybe, for some reason that we can't discern, it has fit God's purposes to only provide proof to a designated few throughout history—say, ten million people or so—and he's left it up to them to tell the rest. (This makes me think of John 20:29.)

 

Anyway, Husker_X, I am not trying to belittle your atheist beliefs, or somehow goad you into believing what I believe. (Not that I think that would work. lol) It's just that, due to my own experiences in the matter, there is no possibility that you're going to change my position about God.

[NUance]

 

 

Child like faith brother.

I don't need strong scientific fact to come to the conclusions I have about there being a God. I know there is one. I can feel it in my heart. I don't believe in Random or coincidence.

 

True story, my wife and I gave money (Not a large sum) to the church a couple weeks ago. 2 days later she finds cash on the ground when out for her daily run. I look at things like that as God rewarding us for being obedient to the call of giving. Some people don't. It's ok, people choose for themselves. In my belief I just feel sorry for those who go through life believing that everything is chance and that there is no reason why we are here.

So God stole from someone who earned that money (possibly another believer) in order to pay you back is what youre saying?

That money could've been the last bit of cash in someones pocket. A good, devout Christian, who has worshipped God and honored him in every thing they do.

 

They were headed to the store to get whatever groceries they could afford with their last bit of money 'til their next payday.

 

They're walking along the road, they reach the grocery store and make a few cheap selections. They get to the checkout register and after the items are rang up this person reaches into their pocket just to find there is nothing there. They've lost their last bit of cash.

 

Obviously embarrassed, the person has no explanation they can only turn in shame as the cashier apologizes and asks the other clerk to return the items to the shelf. The person can hear mumbling behind her, "they have no money" they say, and the person hears a chuckle. Three other "devout Chrisitans" in line behind her, no doubt.

 

As the person trudges home, they begin to wonder where they went wrong. They've given God his glory all their life, they've prayed and worshipped faithfully. They just wish they could catch a break, but instead they've just gone and lost any chance of a meal tonight for themselves or their children. The person begins to pray " Please God, let me find that money, please......it's all I've got". She retraces her steps back along the road.

 

She finds nothing. She can only sob as a woman, clearly out for her daily run, jogs past her smiling. The jogger can see the woman is distraught, she almost looks crazy. To avoid any encounter with this "strange" individual walking down the road bawling, the jogger crosses the road to jog the other side for a bit. You just never know what kind of people you'll encounter out there........ Doesn't matter though, she's got a bit of cash in her pocket she found just aways back.

 

God is good.

 

( just spitballing a little short little story here, but you never know huh?)

 

 

Hey, I think you're onto something. To carry on, maybe—unbeknownst to anyone present—a nefarious crazy person had visited the store just minutes before. That person was a copy-cat killer who had just read about the famous 1982 Tylenol killer, and had laced a bottle of Tylenol with poison. The grocery store clerk, distracted by the poor woman's sobbing as she walked from the store empty handed, let the bottle of poison Tylenol slip from her fingers. It crashed to the floor, cracking the bottle. Whereupon, the clerk chucked the Tylenol bottle with poisonous pills into the trash.

 

Just further spittballing.

[True2tRA]

I sense a movie in the works......

[True2tRA]

If I know one thing, it's that I know nothing.

[Scratchtown]

 

Thanks for sharing, Husker_X. Do you think part of your break with believing in God was due to rebelling against your fundamentalist upbringing? I don't ask you because I think *that* makes your atheist views wrong. (Although I do think your atheist views are wrong. But for other reasons. lol)

 

I ask about this because, if true, I agree with you that investigating and challenging is good. When I was a kid, maybe junior high age or so, I recall being turned off by ministers who trotted out their particular flavor of Christianity to be the one true flavor. I reasoned that most people are Baptists (or Catholics, Quakers, atheists, Muslims, etc.) solely because their parents held those particular beliefs. My parents and grandparents were Baptists. But I took it upon myself to investigate and experience other views. Unlike you though I became stronger in my faith. Even though I ended up adopting a church family with beliefs much different than those of my parents' Baptist church.

 

In any case I applaud you for taking it upon yourself to investigate and challenge the beliefs you grew up with. But I feel sorry for you inasmuch as I think you reached the wrong conclusion.

You think I reached the wrong conclusion, but neither you nor anyone else I've met that's of a religious persuasion can say why, or provide a logical alternative. I hear a lot about feelings and "I just can't understand how X . . ." logic (which technically is a fallacy called the argument from ignorance), but that's about it. Since the burden of proof is on the believer, I need more.

 

I suppose having a fundamentalist aspect to my upbringing makes it easier to put cracks in the foundation, but I don't want to give you guys and gals the wrong idea: I wasn't living in the Phelps household exactly. Like I said, my change of mind was based on a lot of research and debate. I haven't met many Christians who can say the same going the other direction.

 

My question would be is, How do you research the unresearchable? Also, debate is intelligent opinion. Not fact. You can bring fact into the debate but the debate itself is a stance of opinion because fact is not debatable.

[StPaulHusker]

I believe because I choose to believe. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

[True2tRA]

I believe because I choose to believe. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

Exactly.

 

Even though we are on different sides of this (I have questions all the time and constantly internally battle faith and religion) I still always wonder why any mortal thinks they need to,prove anything to anybody? It's not their duty to do so.

 

I would hope that love, acceptance, and a want for helping others is a basic human interest no matter who you are or what "side" you're on. At the very least, live and let live.

 

I can't understand this desire for believers or non-believers to try to sway each other. I especially don't understand so much judgment coming from a group of people who swears there is only one " true judge".

[BigRedBuster]

I believe because I choose to believe. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

I think there is an element of this in no matter who is it is and what side they are on even if they don't want to admit it.

[True2tRA]

Do Christians and Atheiest alike ever look at the world and wonder why such horrible things happen? Especially when bad things happen to good people or innocent children. I would think it would be human nature to ask WHY? Maybe not though, I don't know. Is it against the "God Code of Honor" to question him? As a Christian are you just supposed to accept things as "everything happens for a reason" then move on quietly?..........

 

I guess I have always asked WHY? From the day I was born, all through school and into adulthood, I could see that I analyzed and quetioned more than many people bothered to. When you examine things from a human aspect, choosing no sides, you see that there is truly some amazing things out there. Amazing people, amazing planet, nature.....all kinds of wonderful things happen everyday.

 

Then there's a whole lot of bad as well.

 

Side note: I do still think the good outweighs the bad by quite a long ways, you just don't see enough of it in your daily life.

[Husker_x]

 

 

Thanks for sharing, Husker_X. Do you think part of your break with believing in God was due to rebelling against your fundamentalist upbringing? I don't ask you because I think *that* makes your atheist views wrong. (Although I do think your atheist views are wrong. But for other reasons. lol)

 

I ask about this because, if true, I agree with you that investigating and challenging is good. When I was a kid, maybe junior high age or so, I recall being turned off by ministers who trotted out their particular flavor of Christianity to be the one true flavor. I reasoned that most people are Baptists (or Catholics, Quakers, atheists, Muslims, etc.) solely because their parents held those particular beliefs. My parents and grandparents were Baptists. But I took it upon myself to investigate and experience other views. Unlike you though I became stronger in my faith. Even though I ended up adopting a church family with beliefs much different than those of my parents' Baptist church.

 

In any case I applaud you for taking it upon yourself to investigate and challenge the beliefs you grew up with. But I feel sorry for you inasmuch as I think you reached the wrong conclusion.

 

You think I reached the wrong conclusion, but neither you nor anyone else I've met that's of a religious persuasion can say why, or provide a logical alternative. I hear a lot about feelings and "I just can't understand how X . . ." logic (which technically is a fallacy called the argument from ignorance), but that's about it. Since the burden of proof is on the believer, I need more.

I suppose having a fundamentalist aspect to my upbringing makes it easier to put cracks in the foundation, but I don't want to give you guys and gals the wrong idea: I wasn't living in the Phelps household exactly. Like I said, my change of mind was based on a lot of research and debate. I haven't met many Christians who can say the same going the other direction.

If I understand your position, you want definitive proof of God's existence. And if no proof is forthcoming that you deem sufficient, then you'll maintain your position that there is no God.

 

But what if God's designs for us require faith? Faith in the absence of definitive proof? Maybe, for whatever reason, that's how God winnows out the wheat from the chaff. Those who have faith, and those who don't. If God is the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who created the universe, why should he bend to our demands for proof? Does the clay pot have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

 

As for proof, what sort of proof would you require in order for you to believe in God? Would the proof need to come directly from God to you? Would God need to provide proof to all 7.32 billion people of the earth in various manners tailored to each one's individual proof requirements? Don't get me wrong. I believe if God wanted to, he could. I mean, in view of the task of creating the whole universe, I think providing individually tailored proof to each of us wouldn't even cause God to break a sweat. But maybe, for some reason that we can't discern, it has fit God's purposes to only provide proof to a designated few throughout history[/size]say, ten million people or so[/size]and he's left it up to them to tell the rest. (This makes me think of John 20:29.)

 

Anyway, Husker_X, I am not trying to belittle your atheist beliefs, or somehow goad you into believing what I believe. (Not that I think that would work. lol) It's just that, due to my own experiences in the matter, there is no possibility that you're going to change my position about God.

Well let's start with evidence. When you get into proofs you're straying into mathematics. My position is that I have insufficient evidence to positively claim a god exists. I don't know if some ultimate being is there or not, and no one who claims to believe in one can explain in reasonable terms why they think there is one. Hence my skepticism.

 

Your version of God not only has the power to provide evidence of his existence, but to know even if I don't know what it would take to convince me (though I have a few working ideas). His failure to act is very damning given the Christian belief system. I'll say that much. Any god that would make faith the cornerstone of salvation is capricious and cruel. Reason is the only tool human beings have to determine truth from falsehood. Removing that turns the whole enterprise into a terrifying game of Russian Roulette. Guess the right god by accident or burn. Consider for a second how many billions of people have lost this god's game already.

 

And believe me I know I can't argue you out of anything (you on the other hand could change my mind through reason and evidence). That's not my intent. What I do know is that doubt, like what John Adams said about facts, is a stubborn thing. A quiet voice today is a screaming megaphone tomorrow.

 

I've got a few more people to answer, but doing this from a phone sucks so I'll catch the rest of you later.

[BigRedBuster]

Do Christians and Atheiest alike ever look at the world and wonder why such horrible things happen? Especially when bad things happen to good people or innocent children. I would think it would be human nature to ask WHY? Maybe not though, I don't know. Is it against the "God Code of Honor" to question him? As a Christian are you just supposed to accept things as "everything happens for a reason" then move on quietly?..........

 

I guess I have always asked WHY? From the day I was born, all through school and into adulthood, I could see that I analyzed and quetioned more than many people bothered to. When you examine things from a human aspect, choosing no sides, you see that there is truly some amazing things out there. Amazing people, amazing planet, nature.....all kinds of wonderful things happen everyday.

 

Then there's a whole lot of bad as well.

 

Side note: I do still think the good outweighs the bad by quite a long ways, you just don't see enough of it in your daily life.

Honestly, I don't know of one person who hasn't asked "why". I would imagine even the most fervent person on both sides asks...why? Well, maybe an atheist could answer this better, but, to me being a Christian almost forces me to ask "why". Now, if you don't believe in a higher power, then why would you ask "why". The answer is simple, it's all just simply a random act of chemical reactions in nature. There is no reason to even wish for better outcomes than what is happening. It simply is what it is with no purpose.

 

 

And, as I have said in many threads on this, this conundrum is a large part of why I believe in a higher power. Also, someone on here (I think Huskerx) said they came to be an atheist through years of studying it and asking questions and having many conversations but you didn't know of any (or many anyway) Christians who had done the same thing. Well, I'm one. I have spent most of my life studying this and trying to figure it out and simply, I have come to a different conclusion than you. That's OK. Each of us have their path they choose to believe in.

 

What saddens me though in this conversation is people who are atheist because they hate organized religion. I'm not saying that is anyone specific on here. I have just met some people like that in my life. To me, the organized religion has obviously failed in representing the possibility of a higher power and what that really means. I came to my own belief through completely separating a "higher power" from "organized religion". Really, they are two completely separate things. Now, they can be related. But, they don't have to be. One should not cloud the person's judgement from the other. A belief in a higher power should not automatically make you be a Christian, Muslim or what ever. And....on the flip side, hating organized religion (to me) isn't a good reason to come to a conclusion that there is not a higher power.

[True2tRA]

Maybe you misused the word "fervent", but no I wasn't talking about the most fervent people actually. The majority of people I've dealt with in these discussions, as far as not asking WHY?, have never been given a reason to question things, or simply don't care to.

 

A lot of these people when asked, would tell you they're a Christian, but if you looked at their life, you would see they don't live the way a Christian was intended to live.

 

Then those who don't claim to be Christian generally don't care and wouldn't take the time to even be in a discussion like this.

 

I've met plenty of both types.

 

I do agree with your point though, a higher power can exist without being tied to the church or organized religon. You don't have to belong to a church to believe in something greater than yourself. I'd say when I deal with these questions in my life, I fall more into that category. I sometimes feel like there's got to be something, but what it is and how it affect me, I couldn't tell you.