Write stupid laws, get stupid results - Fremont, NE edition

[NUance]

1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

 

How would illegal aliens not pay taxes? 

 

FICA is almost unavoidable.  To avoid personal income taxes a person could simply manipulate the numbers on their W-4 to minimize withholdings.  And then not file a tax return.  I surprised you did not know that.  

[funhusker]

1 minute ago, NUance said:

 

FICA is almost unavoidable.  To avoid personal income taxes a person could simply manipulate the numbers on their W-4 to minimize withholdings.  And then not file a tax return.  I surprised you did not know that.  

I’m guessing most jobs that are hiring undocumented workers don’t  pay enough for people to owe income tax even with a small family.

[knapplc]

Just now, NUance said:

 

FICA is almost unavoidable.  To avoid personal income taxes a person could simply manipulate the numbers on their W-4 to minimize withholdings.  And then not file a tax return.  I surprised you did not know that.  

 

I don't understand the mechanics of that. Do they pay zero taxes?  Or do they pay the minimum in taxes?  And once they've paid that minimum, how do they collect on social services?

[NUance]

6 minutes ago, funhusker said:

???  It probably won’t be a popular take because it doesn’t make much sense.

 

No renters (legal or not) pays property taxes directly. But the property owners do. Steady renters will create revenue and make the property worth more generatin more tax revenue. On the flipside, empty apartments can lead to blight and tax loss.

 

 

It doesn't make sense, huh.  Oh, here all this time I thought the illegal immigrant tax talk was talking about personal income tax.  But now you've enlightened us!  It's taxes on rental units that they're speaking of.  Bravo!  

 

 

 

btw, Just for the record, rental units have a lot of write-offs and aren't generally a big source of tax revenue, percentage-wise.  So there's that.    

[NUance]

7 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

I don't understand the mechanics of that. Do they pay zero taxes?  Or do they pay the minimum in taxes?  And once they've paid that minimum, how do they collect on social services?

 

Really?  

 

Okay, I'm saying if someone wants to avoid taxes they simply crank up the numbers on their W-4 in order to lower their withholding.  I suppose if they wanted to they could trim their withholding down to zero.  But that would likely raise red flags.  So the more prudent route of cheating the government would be to only have a few bucks held out of your paycheck for state and federal personal income tax.  

 

 

==================  

 

Edit:  Just for the record, I am self employed and I pay estimated quarterly tax amounts.  I've received a refund for the past several years, so I am not doing what I describe above.  (Really IRS.  I am NOT!)  lulz 

 

Gotta get back to work now.  So bye!     

[Big Red 40]

Enforcing laws that are already there is just common sense, not stupid. If you aren't in this country legally you shouldn't be able to get a job, housing. or take advantage of any of the privileges citizens enjoy. If those laws were enforced nation wide, there would be no reason for them to come here, and the ones who are here would go home, illegal immigration problem solved. (without a stupid wall) The stupid thing is the endless lawsuits, and litigation trying to argue things that are already laws, and employers who want cheap, exploitable labor convincing us to  look the other way for 30 years, while millions poured in. Its a problem that never should have happened in the first place.

[funhusker]

5 minutes ago, NUance said:

 

It doesn't make sense, huh.  Oh, here all this time I thought the illegal immigrant tax talk was talking about personal income tax.  But now you've enlightened us!  It's taxes on rental units that they're speaking of.  Bravo!  

 

 

 

btw, Just for the record, rental units have a lot of write-offs and aren't generally a big source of tax revenue, percentage-wise.  So there's that.    

No need to get snarky. This thread is about laws not allowing people to rent. I missed where it became something else. My bad.

[NUance]

3 minutes ago, funhusker said:

No need to get snarky. This thread is about laws not allowing people to rent. I missed where it became something else. My bad.

 

 

Snarkiness retracted.  

 

Gotta get back to work now.  So bye!     

[knapplc]

2 minutes ago, NUance said:

I suppose if they wanted to they could trim their withholding down to zero.  But that would likely raise red flags.  So the more prudent route of cheating the government would be to only have a few bucks held out of your paycheck for state and federal personal income tax.  

 

I don't file taxes. I have an accountant in the family who does that. So not kidding, I don't understand the mechanics of that.

 

That said, my rudimentary understanding of tax law says you can't fudge your withholdings enough to pay zero taxes. So these people live here, pay income taxes (to whatever extent), can't claim social services because they have invalid SSNs, and don't collect on income taxes because they can't file returns.  Net, they probably don't pay as much as documented workers (citizens or non-citizens), but they're still paying. And they don't have access to safety net services.

 

Let's say every undocumented worker is doing this (logic says some are honest, but we would be guessing on percentages, so let's not do that).  If that's $2,000 net loss per undocumented worker, at a total of 8 million workers, that's $16 billion in lost revenue.  Am I doing the math correctly on that?  We've covered extensively how math is not my strong suit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Red 40]

21 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

I don't understand the mechanics of that. Do they pay zero taxes?  Or do they pay the minimum in taxes?  And once they've paid that minimum, how do they collect on social services?

They have to pay social security tax but they have ways of getting around others. One trick is to claim the max amount of dependents (11?) so they with hold the least amount possible from your paycheck. at the end of the year you've payed very little in taxes so there's no reason to file a return and get it back. I've been told you can get away with not filing a return for 3 years before IRS action is taken, and if you're using a fake identity who would they come after anyway?  There are many advantages that come with anonymity.    

[knapplc]

6 minutes ago, Big Red 40 said:

They have to pay social security tax but they have ways of getting around others. One trick is to claim the max amount of dependents (11?) so they with hold the least amount possible from your paycheck. at the end of the year you've payed very little in taxes so there's no reason to file a return and get it back. I've been told you can get away with not filing a return for 3 years before IRS action is taken, and if you're using a fake identity who would they come after anyway?  There are many advantages that come with anonymity.    

 

As NUance pointed out, withholding the maximum would probably raise some red flags, and if I'm illegally working in a country, I would want to raise as few flags as possible. So the withholdings thing is probably not as rampant as it could be.

[Big Red 40]

3 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

As NUance pointed out, withholding the maximum would probably raise some red flags, and if I'm illegally working in a country, I would want to raise as few flags as possible. So the withholdings thing is probably not as rampant as it could be.

It only raises a red flag if they file a return and cant prove the dependents. They know they're better off if they just don't file at all. The IRS doesn't have the resources to track them down anyway. 

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, Big Red 40 said:

It only raises a red flag if they file a return and cant prove the dependents. They know they're better off if they just don't file at all. The IRS doesn't have the resources to track them down anyway. 

 

There should be some kind of documentation of these abuses somewhere. I'd like to know how much of a problem this really is.

[Big Red 40]

6 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

There should be some kind of documentation of these abuses somewhere. I'd like to know how much of a problem this really is.

A big part of the problem with people being here with false documents or none at all, is that accurate records, and factual data about them is hard to come by. 

[knapplc]

Just now, Big Red 40 said:

A big part of the problem with people being here with false documents or none at all, is that accurate records, and factual data about them is hard to come by. 

 

Which leads to abuses by both sides of the situation.

 

I've seen things saying undocumented workers cost the US billions. I've seen where they're a net positive to the US.  I presume the truth lies somewhere out there, but it's likely full of estimates because of the lack of documentation.  It's the nature of who these people are.

 

What galls me - and why I created the thread & made the thread title the way it is - is that xenophobes & people with nefarious intent can and do latch on to these things and abuse them. To me, that's as bad of a problem as the undocumented workers themselves. 

 

Plus I have a general disgust for Fremont, having grown up there.