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2017 NBA Playoffs


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#51 Mavric

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:22 PM

https://twitter.com/Deadspin/status/866836554492366848


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#52 Mavric

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:27 PM

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/866844892005363714


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#53 spurs1990

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:52 PM

https://twitter.com/dav_mcg/status/866859633557766146

2/3 Spurs childhood favorites likely gone (Ginobili and Duncan) and the potential last one standing is out with an injury that could end his career (Parker). Sad night, but loved the ovation and chants the fans gave out. Love watching games at the AT&T Center


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#54 Mavric

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:18 PM

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/866863971655176192


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#55 QMany

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:12 AM

https://twitter.com/MikeAndMike/status/866644197314629634


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#56 spurs1990

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 11:28 AM

How many playoff games have each played?


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#57 QMany

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 11:46 AM

How many playoff games have each played?

 

LeBron: 210

MJ: 179


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#58 BIG ERN

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 07:25 AM

I wouldn't call the Cavs-Celts competitive. Still will be over in 5. Kobe is not better than LeBron, sorry. The only statistical case Kobe has on LeBron is 5 rings, but the ring argument in the NBA is such a mirage. Derek Fisher has all of those same rings Kobe has. Don't get me wrong, Kobe was a great player, but he was never playing at the level Lebron is at right now

The year the Lakers went 15-1 (NBA record) Kobe had more ppg than Shaq going into the Finals. In fact, all 3 years they won together he had a better + - and led the team in scoring leading to the Finals 2/3 years. Shaq was still great, but he fed off the garbage East. Whoever won the West at that time was guaranteed a title. 01' was also the year that ALL the teams the Lakers faced had 50+ wins. Kobe was also only 22 years old 

 

Round 1: Portland Trailblazers

Damon Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Rasheed Wallace, Arvydas Sabonis

Shaq: 27 ppg, 15.7 reb 48% FG

Kobe: 25 ppg, 7.7 ast, 4.3 reb 48% FG

Round 2: Sacramento Kings

Jason Williams, Peja Stojakovic, Hedo Turkoglu, Chris Webber, Vlade Divac

Kobe: 35 ppg, 9 reb, 4.3 ast 47% FG

Shaq: 33 ppg, 17.3 reb 59% FG

Round 3: San Antonio Spurs (WCF)

Avery Johnson, Antonio Daniels, Sean Elliot, Tim Duncan, David Robinson

Kobe: 33 ppg, 7 reb, 7 ast 51% FG

Shaq: 27 ppg, 13 reb 54% FG


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#59 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 07:42 AM

What does that have to do with Kobe not having a statistical case against Lebron? Even if Kobe scored more than Shaq he still had Shaq on his squad who was a beast against the west and the east don't give me that he was feeding of the weak east garbage. Shaq was a beast plain and simple. So was Kobe but you are trying to tell me Kobe is better because he scored the most points on his team on the way to the finals. I would hope so because Kobes game is mostly volume scoring. When you look at scoring efficiency, assists, rebounds, defense and even PPG, Lebron takes the cake. Kobe is an all time great, don't get me wrong, but Lebron is great in every area of his game and can control the game in a way Kobe never could.

http://www.landofbas...ebron_james.htm
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#60 BIG ERN

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 09:28 AM

What does that have to do with Kobe not having a statistical case against Lebron? Even if Kobe scored more than Shaq he still had Shaq on his squad who was a beast against the west and the east don't give me that he was feeding of the weak east garbage. Shaq was a beast plain and simple. So was Kobe but you are trying to tell me Kobe is better because he scored the most points on his team on the way to the finals. I would hope so because Kobes game is mostly volume scoring. When you look at scoring efficiency, assists, rebounds, defense and even PPG, Lebron takes the cake. Kobe is an all time great, don't get me wrong, but Lebron is great in every area of his game and can control the game in a way Kobe never could.

http://www.landofbas...ebron_james.htm

So I assume you have Wilt Chamberlain as the greatest player of all-time? If not, you are cherry picking things you think should consider that player being the best. Lebron like all other players will eventually decline in stats avg. Kobe graduated HS at 17 and didn't get a lot of PT the first few years which brought his career averages down. Lebron was more ready out of HS mainly due to him graduating at 19.5 years old. He also left to play with Wade and Bosh and now Irving and Love all 4 will be HOF players. 


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#61 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:19 AM

Most players play with other HOFers when they win ships. That's the way it goes. Have your opinion all you want but you like many others are just trying to undercut Lebrons greatness for no reason. He is the second best player to ever do it, and probably the most complete player of all time. Keep thinking Kobe is better if you want to, just know your opinion through most prisms now is wrong.

Let me put it this way. If your could have a fantasy draft where all of the best players of all time were available at the start of their careers and teams were picking now, Lebron would go top 2 and Kobe may not be top 5.
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#62 BIG ERN

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:30 AM

Most players play with other HOFers when they win ships. That's the way it goes. Have your opinion all you want but you like many others are just trying to undercut Lebrons greatness for no reason. He is the second best player to ever do it, and probably the most complete player of all time. Keep thinking Kobe is better if you want to, just know your opinion through most prisms now is wrong.

I think LeBron is great and could eventually pass Kobe. It just boggles my mind that we act like he is doing things the game has never seen before. Especially when we factor in how garbage the East is. 


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#63 QMany

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:36 AM

Most players play with other HOFers when they win ships. That's the way it goes. Have your opinion all you want but you like many others are just trying to undercut Lebrons greatness for no reason. He is the second best player to ever do it, and probably the most complete player of all time. Keep thinking Kobe is better if you want to, just know your opinion through most prisms now is wrong.

 

I can't argue that LeBron is one of the best players ever, but I can't consider him "the most complete player of all time." IMHO, his defense, other than exciting help-side and chase down blocks, is sub-standard when compared to the other greats.  


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#64 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:23 AM


Most players play with other HOFers when they win ships. That's the way it goes. Have your opinion all you want but you like many others are just trying to undercut Lebrons greatness for no reason. He is the second best player to ever do it, and probably the most complete player of all time. Keep thinking Kobe is better if you want to, just know your opinion through most prisms now is wrong.

I think LeBron is great and could eventually pass Kobe. It just boggles my mind that we act like he is doing things the game has never seen before. Especially when we factor in how garbage the East is. 
the thing is he is though. He is Karl Malone and John Stockton put together. He just put up 26-8-8 in his 14th season. That is something we have never seen before. Only 3 other players in history have put up that stat line (Big O, Harden and Westbrook) and none of those guys did it in their 14th season coming off of their 6th straight final. If the east sucks so bad why do none of the big free agents come to the east and dominate? I understand we get Lebron fatigue but it pains me to see people just shrug his greatness away like it's nothing.
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#65 Mavric

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:41 AM

If the east sucks so bad


none of the big free agents come to the east


And there you have it - answered your own question.
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#66 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:43 AM

If the east sucks so bad

none of the big free agents come to the east

And there you have it - answered your own question.
Or they don't want to play Lebron in the playoffs


But since I must sound like a Lebron Stan at this point I will leave it be. We will see how history looks back on Kobe and LeBron when it's all said and done.
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#67 Mavric

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:46 AM

If the east sucks so bad

none of the big free agents come to the east

And there you have it - answered your own question.

Or they don't want to play Lebron in the playoffs

Could be. But that's not a rebuttal to what BIG ERN said.
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#68 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:48 AM

If the east sucks so bad

none of the big free agents come to the east

And there you have it - answered your own question.
Or they don't want to play Lebron in the playoffs
Could be. But that's not a rebuttal to what BIG ERN said.
and what has Big ERN been coming with except opinion? I asked him to make a statistical case for Kobe over Lebron and he couldn't so he resorted to other arguments so I don't really see how my rebuttals matter at that point.
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#69 Mavric

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:02 PM

So you're allowed to make contradicting rebuttals then say they don't matter but he has to bring a statistical case?

 

Interesting dichotomy.


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#70 BIG ERN

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:09 PM

 

 

 

 

If the east sucks so bad

none of the big free agents come to the east

And there you have it - answered your own question.
Or they don't want to play Lebron in the playoffs
Could be. But that's not a rebuttal to what BIG ERN said.
and what has Big ERN been coming with except opinion? I asked him to make a statistical case for Kobe over Lebron and he couldn't so he resorted to other arguments so I don't really see how my rebuttals matter at that point.

 

I already stated several stats that show that Kobe wasn't carried by Shaq and when he came into the league he got little PT his first two years which brings down his career averages. LeBron is 32 right now, when Kobe was 33 he still averaged 30 ppg in the Playoffs that year. He then declined after the achilles injury. 

LeBron career right now is 27, 7, 7 - Larry Bird ended with 24, 10, 6 so yes, I have seen these numbers done before just maybe not as late in career. Bird arguably has the best season in NBA history: 28/9/7 53% FG 40% 3p and 91% FT. Avg 10 reb/game for his career and LeBron has never avg 9 reb in one season yet. 

 

This years stats are also so inflated it isn't funny. Westbrook averaged 31/10/10 and Harden 29/11/8. Possessions and scoring for all teams is up along with not being able to breathe on anyone. 

 

Furthermore, people never give enough credit to Kobe winning back-to-back titles with an average team. Not one player averaged over 19 ppg in the playoffs for the Lakers in 09' or 10' besides Kobe. In 10' they beat Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, K Perkins, Rasheed Wallace,  Nate Robinson, and Tony Allen


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#71 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:14 PM

So you're allowed to make contradicting rebuttals then say they don't matter but he has to bring a statistical case?
 
Interesting dichotomy.

Well you messed up the time line there. I asked for the statistical case, didn't get it. I presented a statistical case, which was pushed to the side because apparently stats don't matter, then I made the contradictory rebuttal which was the point(the start free agents don't want to play Lebron) so yea Id say it doesn't matter since his rebuttals apparently don't have to be in response to my posts either
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#72 BIG ERN

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:20 PM

AND for being a Top 5 player all-time LeBron had the worst Final's performance. 

 

In 2007 they were swept (0-4) which is fine cause the Cavs sucked, but you have to play better than this. 

 

22 ppg, 7 reb, 6 ast, 35% fg 20% 3p and 6 turnovers/game.

 

I'll leave it at that and don't need to keep posting since everyone has it in their heads. I don't hate Lebron and think he is great - just that people get caught in the moment way too hard. 


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#73 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:21 PM


 

 

 

 

If the east sucks so bad

none of the big free agents come to the east

And there you have it - answered your own question.
Or they don't want to play Lebron in the playoffs
Could be. But that's not a rebuttal to what BIG ERN said.
and what has Big ERN been coming with except opinion? I asked him to make a statistical case for Kobe over Lebron and he couldn't so he resorted to other arguments so I don't really see how my rebuttals matter at that point.
 
I already stated several stats that show that Kobe wasn't carried by Shaq and when he came into the league he got little PT his first two years which brings down his career averages. LeBron is 32 right now, when Kobe was 33 he still averaged 30 ppg in the Playoffs that year. He then declined after the achilles injury. 

LeBron career right now is 27, 7, 7 - Larry Bird ended with 24, 10, 6 so yes, I have seen these numbers done before just maybe not as late in career. Bird arguably has the best season in NBA history: 28/9/7 53% FG 40% 3p and 91% FT. Avg 10 reb/game for his career and LeBron has never avg 9 reb in one season yet. 
 
This years stats are also so inflated it isn't funny. Westbrook averaged 31/10/10 and Harden 29/11/8. Possessions and scoring for all teams is up along with not being able to breathe on anyone. 
 
Furthermore, people never give enough credit to Kobe winning back-to-back titles with an average team. Not one player averaged over 19 ppg in the playoffs for the Lakers in 09' or 10' besides Kobe. In 10' they beat Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, K Perkins, Rasheed Wallace,  Nate Robinson, and Tony Allen
never once said Shaq carried Kobe but I'm not gonna lie and sit here and say Kobe would have won without Shaq. Lebron in 9 less games has more points rebounds assists blocks and steals total in the playoffs than Kobe. Again Kobe was fantastic, all time great, but he wasn't the all around player that Lebron is. He doesn't impact his team in the same way because the offense runs through Lebron. He is their facilitator and also probably their #1 scoring option. Kobe wasn't the facilitator Lebron is, other than that their games are pretty much on the same level except Kobe isn't as physically intimidating as Lebron. Not trying to slight Kobe but the fact of the matter is if you ask any NBA expert who the better player is they will say Lebron
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#74 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:24 PM

AND for being a Top 5 player all-time LeBron had the worst Final's performance. 
 
In 2007 they were swept (0-4) which is fine cause the Cavs sucked, but you have to play better than this. 
 
22 ppg, 7 reb, 6 ast, 35% fg 20% 3p and 6 turnovers/game.
 
I'll leave it at that and don't need to keep posting since everyone has it in their heads. I don't hate Lebron and think he is great - just that people get caught in the moment way too hard. 

on the worst finals team of all time against one of the great teams of all time lol I would have expected the Heat Mavs series instead. Lebron has his faults but so does Kobe. I'm not gonna sit here and defend Lebron all day like this anyway, I like the Pelicans hahaha
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#75 Landlord of Memorial Stadium

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:40 PM

As a huge Kobe Bryant fan since I was 6 years old and he entered the league, he's just not as great as Lebron. Still one of the absolute best to ever play, but not as good. You can try to manipulate and massage arguments all you want but reality is that Lebron has made a career out of doing more, doing it more efficiently, and doing it with less. Kobe's only edge on Lebron is that he was better at hero ball and that he played in a more competitive conference, but Lebron plays a different kind of basketball.


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Posted 24 May 2017 - 12:43 PM

Thank you! They can both be incredible, all time great players
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#77 Mavric

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 01:20 PM

 

So you're allowed to make contradicting rebuttals then say they don't matter but he has to bring a statistical case?
 
Interesting dichotomy.

Well you messed up the time line there. I asked for the statistical case, didn't get it. I presented a statistical case, which was pushed to the side because apparently stats don't matter, then I made the contradictory rebuttal which was the point(the start free agents don't want to play Lebron) so yea Id say it doesn't matter since his rebuttals apparently don't have to be in response to my posts either

 

OK, this will be my bad.  I missed the part that your stats were in the link.  I was looking for them in the thread.

 

And I'm not even arguing the point.  I'm not a LeBron fan - nor a Kobe fan for that matter - but I definitely think LeBron is the better player.  He gets demerits from me for flopping and I think the issues he's had with heat seem ... dubious.  But what he can actually do on the floor is pretty incredible.

 

But I'm also not sure your stats are quite paint quite as clear of a "LeBron is better" argument as you might think.  There are differences in teammates, competition and eras of play that aren't captured by straight stats.  Not the least of which Kobe having significantly more run-ins with the best team of the last 20+ years (Spurs) and LeBron always playing in the East which has been lacking for quite some time.  And Kobe has the clear edge in defensive honors which may or may not mean anything but others have questioned LeBron's defense and I'm not sure why an elite defender would feel the need to flop like he does.


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#78 Nebfanatic

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 01:41 PM


 

So you're allowed to make contradicting rebuttals then say they don't matter but he has to bring a statistical case?
 
Interesting dichotomy.

Well you messed up the time line there. I asked for the statistical case, didn't get it. I presented a statistical case, which was pushed to the side because apparently stats don't matter, then I made the contradictory rebuttal which was the point(the start free agents don't want to play Lebron) so yea Id say it doesn't matter since his rebuttals apparently don't have to be in response to my posts either
 
OK, this will be my bad.  I missed the part that your stats were in the link.  I was looking for them in the thread.
 
And I'm not even arguing the point.  I'm not a LeBron fan - nor a Kobe fan for that matter - but I definitely think LeBron is the better player.  He gets demerits from me for flopping and I think the issues he's had with heat seem ... dubious.  But what he can actually do on the floor is pretty incredible.
 
But I'm also not sure your stats are quite paint quite as clear of a "LeBron is better" argument as you might think.  There are differences in teammates, competition and eras of play that aren't captured by straight stats.  Not the least of which Kobe having significantly more run-ins with the best team of the last 20+ years (Spurs) and LeBron always playing in the East which has been lacking for quite some time.  And Kobe has the clear edge in defensive honors which may or may not mean anything but others have questioned LeBron's defense and I'm not sure why an elite defender would feel the need to flop like he does.
what you are saying about Lebron is fair and the flaws ERN brought up are there too. I'm not some Lebron super fan who thinks he is perfect. But to me when you watch the 2 play, it's not really that hard to determine who is better overall. And the stats while they may be skewed, back up that notion. Even in categories you would think Kobe would be better(playoff scoring) Lebron is still ahead of him.

You really have to do some stretching to try and argue Kobe is the better player. Like I said not a Lebron super fan so I don't know what more to say for the guy, but I really just appreciate his talent and I think to say Kobe is better than him at this point is an opinion that is easier to prove wrong than right. Obviously I can't come with definitive evidence Lebron is better because that doesn't exist when you are comparing 2 all time great athletes, that being said I'd say quite a bit of the evidence is in Brons favor.


All of this should be taken with a grain of salt though considering we can all agree both of these guys are all time top 10 (if not better) players. Splitting hairs really.
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#79 HuskermanMike

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 04:52 PM

What a great playoffs its been.... Manu will be in the HOF if he indeed retires.

 

Lebron is a great defender and I don't know why people say he isn't a good one. Maybe he plays too much help defense but as a one on one defender he is really good. He recovers when he gets beat to the hoop, which with all the new rules you almost have to get beat to the tin and then block someones shot or else you get tagged with a foul trying to play great defense in today's game. In the playoffs though the officials let them play a little more than during the regular season.


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#80 Mavric

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:42 PM

https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo/status/867936902262824960


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#81 admo

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:11 PM

Yeah.....

 

Lebron and Kobe are both great.  Phenomenal players...

 

Phil Jackson and Dwayne Wade are pretty great too....

 

Shouldn't argue over things like that...

 

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